Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Ag_not]

I don’t get the feeling that that was sincere.

AshleyBelle does not need me to defend her, butt I have to say, of all the posters Ive come across here she is one of the most sincere, reasonable, charitable, and pleasureable to read and correspond with. I think you are quite wrong to question her sincerety.

Leeann is not seeking peace.

You got that right

 

[AshleyBelle]

I don’t get the feeling that that was sincere. Leeann is not seeking peace. She is making a good point and even if you or anyone else on this thread thinks she is right you won’t admit it because that would mean you are unfaithful to the Pope and the Church and the Vatican. The original question is “To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?” The Church has one perfect savior. Why create another one ? Co-redeemer, mediatrix and advocate are confusing terms. Jesus is redeemer and mediator and the Holy Spirit is the Advocate.

I’m glad you can look through your computer and see the intentions of my comments… Despite what you said here, I was very sincere. I feel that Leanne is uneasy and not at peace, because she doesn’t understand the intentions of her friends, who have recently started a devotion to Mary.

As for the rest of your post… Why don’t you ask God? Why don’t you ask Him why He chose to involve ANY of us in His plan?
Mary plays a very special role in our salvtion, because God CHOSE to involve Her! He had a plan for Her… He could have just put Christ on the earth, without a mother, without a childhood… just placed Him here as a grown man. But He chose to use Mary! I will honor the woman whom God honored

You seem to have a problem with God’s decision in this regard…

The Church has one perfect savior. Why create another one

Who is creating another savior? If you think we believe Mary can save us then I would advise finding out what we really believe before making these sorts of accusations. “Playing a role in our salvation” Is very different from “Being our savior.”

So maybe you can answer for me… Why did God choose to use Mary in our redemption? My Bible tells me that Mary was there at His birth…she was there at the wedding feast…she was there at the last supper…she was there at His crucifixion… Why would the Bible even bother to point all of this out? Why doesn’t it just say that “When Jesus was at this wedding they ran out of wine…so Jesus performed a miracle and gave them wine…” Why did God BOTHER including the dialogue where MARY comes to Him, and then she commands everyone to “do whatever He tells you.” What’s the point of having Mary in any of that?

 

[AshleyBelle]

AshleyBelle does not need me to defend her, butt I have to say, of all the posters Ive come across here she is one of the most sincere, reasonable, charitable, and pleasureable to read and correspond with. I think you are quite wrong to question her sincerety.

:hug1:

 

[ron77nyc]

So maybe you can answer for me… Why did God choose to use Mary in our redemption? My Bible tells me that Mary was there at His birth…she was there at the wedding feast…she was there at the last supper…she was there at His crucifixion… Why would the Bible even bother to point all of this out? Why doesn’t it just say that “When Jesus was at this wedding they ran out of wine…so Jesus performed a miracle and gave them wine…” Why did God BOTHER including the dialogue where MARY comes to Him, and then she commands everyone to “do whatever He tells you.” What’s the point of having Mary in any of that?

Here’s the subject: Why is the Pope praying to the Blessed Mother and not the Father? The Vicar of Christ is not praying as Jesus taught.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Here’s the subject: Why is the Pope praying to the Blessed Mother and not the Father? The Vicar of Christ is not praying as Jesus taught.

That's one way to dodge the question:) Can you answer it?

 

[ron77nyc]

That’s one way to dodge the question Can you answer it?

Mary told the people at the wedding to do whatever Jesus says. If we want to put that statement in the present of course we are to do what Jesus says but we can do that with or without His mother telling us.

Why do the Hindus not do what He says when they devote themselves to the Blessed Mother?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Mary told the people at the wedding to do whatever Jesus says. If we want to put that statement in the present of course we are to do what Jesus says but we can do that with or without His mother telling us.

Why do the Hindus not do what He says when they devote themselves to the Blessed Mother?

What do the Hindus have to do with our discussion, or the blessed mother?

And you’re right…we “could” do what Jesus asks of us, with our without Mary urging us. But that doesn’t explain WHY the Bible still includes her… WHY did God choose to include Mary’s urging to “do whatever He tells you” in the Bible? If Mary is not an important figure in our salvation, WHY is she mentioned and revered this way? It was Jesus’s FIRST miracle, He even said “my hour has not yet come…how does your concern affect me?” It sounds like Jesus was obeying His Mom…it sounds like even Jesus listened to Mary… And she still reciprocated with “Do whatever He tells you…” Obediently returning His faithfulness with her own.

So… Why did God choose to reveal these things in the Bible? Why is Mary included in the gospel message?

 

[ron77nyc]

What do the Hindus have to do with our discussion, or the blessed mother?

So… Why did God choose to reveal these things in the Bible? Why is Mary included in the gospel message?

If the Blessed Mother leads people to Her Son why aren’t the Hindus and Muslims getting the message? They have a pious devotion but still reject God’s plan of salvation.

“Why is Mary included in the gospel message?”

The gospel never said “Accept Jesus, Mary and Peter and you will be saved.” The Church says that. Isn’t that preaching another gospel?

 

[AshleyBelle]

If the Blessed Mother leads people to Her Son why aren’t the Hindus and Muslims getting the message? They have a pious devotion but still reject God’s plan of salvation.

“Why is Mary included in the gospel message?”

The gospel never said “Accept Jesus, Mary and Peter and you will be saved.” The Church says that. Isn’t that preaching another gospel?

The Muslims and Hindus don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God. Does this mean we should reject Jesus because they don’t believe in him either? Your argument isn’t making a lot of sense…

If we are to go on what the Bible says… it very clearly points out Mary’s very important role. Why should we reject what the Bible says about Mary’s importance?

The church does not say “Accept Jesus, Mary and Peter and you will be saved.” Please again, learn about what the church teaches before you throw out these accusations. There are great articles here on the CAF Library right at your fingertips

The Church teaches that we are saved by God’s grace alone, through Christ alone, in faith working through love. Believing in Mary and Peter is a part of what helps us LIVE our faith in Christ. Who are we to reject God’s word? If He says Peter and Mary play a role in salvation history or help us in our journey with Christ, I will take God’s word over yours.

So…why did God choose to make Mary a part of the gospel message?

 

[ron77nyc]

So…why did God choose to make Mary a part of the gospel message?

Faith in Mary is not necessary for salvation. The Nicene Creed says “He was born of the Virgin Mary.” Does that mean advocate, co-redemptrix and mediator of all graces. It’s all been said before on this thread: If the apostles came back and heard all this stuff they would think they were in the wrong church.

I’m not dodging you but I need to get some sleep. I’ll continue tomorrow.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Faith in Mary is not necessary for salvation. The Nicene Creed says “He was born of the Virgin Mary.” Does that mean advocate, co-redemptrix and mediator of all graces. It’s all been said before on this thread: If the apostles came back and heard all this stuff they would think they were in the wrong church.

I’m not dodging you but I need to get some sleep. I’ll continue tomorrow.

I don't know why you think Mary is necessary for salvation? Could you show me where in the Bible or in the Catechism that this is taught?

I am simply pointing out, that Jesus, God, and angels have ALL given Mary honor. As Catholics, we believe Jesus, God and the angels are a good example to follow We don’t think she is necesary for salvation, but we recognize that God chose her to play a role in our salvation… And we honor her as God honored her

 

[Good_Fella]

Faith in Mary is not necessary for salvation. The Nicene Creed says “He was born of the Virgin Mary.” Does that mean advocate, co-redemptrix and mediator of all graces. It’s all been said before on this thread: If the apostles came back and heard all this stuff they would think they were in the wrong church.

The Apostles never taught the false Protestant doctrines Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, and Sola Christu. Moreover, they were aware that Jesus built one universal Catholic Church on Peter, founded on the Apostles, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. :nope:

And Mary said, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.”

Jesus is necessary for our salvation. But if it weren’t for Mary’s ‘Fiat’ at the Annunciation, then there wouldn’t have been an Incarnation. No incarnation = no salvation. God chose no other course to save us. Nor did the Most High impose himself upon Mary. She was free to obey his will in true faith and love. We venerate and honour Mary together with her cousin Elizabeth for her decision to help bring the Messiah into the world:

“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”

“From now all generations shall call me blessed.
The Almighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.”

PAX :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

But it wasn’t given…..it was “developed”.

How does “development” make it any less “given”? How is the canon, developing over the course of 4 centuries, make it any less of God? How is the concept of the Trinity, and the hypostatic union developing well after the Apostles make it any less “given” by God?

Jesus was clear that everything would not be immediately understood, and it would take time.

So why did you bring satan into the conversation at all?
You weren’t inferring that satan could have interfered with God’s plan of salvation were you?

I don’t think it was an inference. I think that Satan does everything to interfere with God’s plan, and is successful sometimes.

I never said it was – you used the word “confused” in your original post….

Poor choice of words, then. Mary was puzzled because she had no intention of having relations with a man. That is why she asked “how”?

Well – some other versions of the Catholic Bible express it differently – New Jerusalem : 28 He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’ And New American Standard , 28And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Do you find these not “titles”?

As stated – Mary already had the ‘cards stacked in her favour’ (pardon the pun), and Zacharias didn’t.

I think I disagree with this, but since it is off topic, I am not going to ask about it. Suffice to say that I believe, where God guides, He provides. God did not ask anything of 'ol Zach that He was not willing to enable Him to do.

Oh yes, of course – Mary is always just that much a little “ahead” and “before” God….isn’t she?

You have gone many days without any sarcastic remarks, and I commend you for that. It looks like this one just slipped. John the Baptis was ahead and before Jesus too. It does not take away from Jesus.

Mary told the people at the wedding to do whatever Jesus says. If we want to put that statement in the present of course we are to do what Jesus says but we can do that with or without His mother telling us.

Why do the Hindus not do what He says when they devote themselves to the Blessed Mother?

What makes you assume they wont? Mary follows Jesus with her whole heart, mind, soul and strength. Anyone else that follows her will also end up where she did.

If the Blessed Mother leads people to Her Son why aren’t the Hindus and Muslims getting the message? They have a pious devotion but still reject God’s plan of salvation.

Well, don’t count them damned before the time.

“Why is Mary included in the gospel message?”

The gospel never said “Accept Jesus, Mary and Peter and you will be saved.” The Church says that. Isn’t that preaching another gospel?

Let us see what Jesus said about those who receive the gospel message:

Mark 10:28-31
29 Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this age — houses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutions — and in the age to come eternal life.

He showed us this by giving us His own mother.

 

[ron77nyc]

I don’t know why you think Mary is necessary for salvation? Could you show me where in the Bible or in the Catechism that this is taught?

I am simply pointing out, that Jesus, God, and angels have ALL given Mary honor. As Catholics, we believe Jesus, God and the angels are a good example to follow We don’t think she is necesary for salvation, but we recognize that God chose her to play a role in our salvation… And we honor her as God honored her

Then there is no conflict. I also believe in giving honor to Mary.

 

[ron77nyc]

The Apostles never taught the false Protestant doctrines Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, and Sola Christu. Moreover, they were aware that Jesus built one universal Catholic Church on Peter, founded on the Apostles, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. :nope:

And Mary said, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.”

Jesus is necessary for our salvation. But if it weren’t for Mary’s ‘Fiat’ at the Annunciation, then there wouldn’t have been an Incarnation. No incarnation = no salvation. God chose no other course to save us. Nor did the Most High impose himself upon Mary. She was free to obey his will in true faith and love. We venerate and honour Mary together with her cousin Elizabeth for her decision to help bring the Messiah into the world:

“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”

“From now all generations shall call me blessed.
The Almighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.”

PAX :tiphat:

**Here is the subject in discussion and the conflict. It seems as if the Pope is depending more on the Blessed Mother than Our Father who art in heaven. **POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

 

[onenow1]

Peace,onenow1:cake:

Is that birthday cake onenow1??? Happy Birthday!!!

No but it was two weeks ago. Didn’t notice the candles, thanks anyway !

Peace, onenow1

 

[mercygate]

Perhaps the Pope would be best to stick to what “looks” commendable then, especially being the position he is.

There’s no difference……only from the Catholic Church’s perspective.

There are significant ontological differences between a Church and a denomination beginning with Apostolic Sucession. Denominationalism derives from the essential schismatic attitude of all Protestantism and represents a denial of the Body of Christ as instituted by Our Lord.

 

[mercygate]

Here’s the subject: Why is the Pope praying to the Blessed Mother and not the Father? The Vicar of Christ is not praying as Jesus taught.

If you think Pope Benedict does NOT pray to the Father, then you don’t know anything about his prayer habits!

 

[guanophore]

Actually all that we know of Mary is found only in the NT with most of it being in the Gospels. What we don’t find there are these Marian dogmas.

This is like saying “all we know about God is found only in the NT, and we don’t find the word Trinity there, so it must not be true.”

Proof is needed for her immaculate conception, assumption and her intercessory powers for starters. Can you provide?

Why do you feel a need for “proof”, ja4?

What would happen if you just made a decision to reliquish your bigotry, and choose tolerance. You could say to yourself “Self, today, we will choose to believe that others see things differently, and that this is ok. It does not have to wreck my life because others have different beliefs than I do.”. Try it!

If you mean her role in the Catholic church then we have a problem…

Think how much simplier your life could be?! You could say “I am not going to have a “problem” because Catholics believe differently than I”. Imagine the freedom!

I think we can safely say the gospel Paul taught and preached had nothing to do with Mary interceding. Correct?

Go back and read the first line of your post above. As trucated as your grasp is, even you admit that what is in the NT is true.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
It’s not what the Catholic Church does for Mary……as to what the Catholic Church has done to Mary.
The humble, faithful, obedient hand maiden of God, whose heart was pierced when she witnessed her son crucified, now also witnesses glory and honor being pointed towards her, instead of towards her son, her Savior…our Savior.

Thank you AshleyBelle…God keep you also.

Ashleybelle:
Mary said, “All nations will call me blessed!”

Mary actually said “All generations will call me blessed!”

Ashleybelle:
So again, I ask you…What do Catholics do that God didn’t already do for Mary?

The Catholic Church has developed and promulgated a theology around Mary and has
incorporated this theology into the “gospel message” that was preached and taught by Jesus and the Apostles, to the point where the Pope is directing his prayer…to/through Mary……instead of to Jesus/God as the Apostles taught and as Jesus himself taught.