Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
I said that Jesus and the Apostles never preached or taught about Mary in their “gospel message” of salvation for all mankind. The Apostles write about Mary and give the proper significance to the role she played in the salvation history – nothing more.

guanophore:
What is written is a distillation of what was preached. If you think these things got into Scripture without them ever being taught then you are in error.

What “things got into Scripture – without them ever being taught” …??..that doesn’t make sense?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
And what would be the significance of this with regards to what we were discussing?

guanophore:
Luke carefully crafted the first two chapters around the events of Christ’s birth. He states and the outset that he is recording what the Church taught. If this information was not part of what the Apostles taught, why did he put it in there?

Luke gives the most thorough recording of Christ’s birth and Mary’s participation is recorded, as is Elizabeth’s for John the Baptist…. Matthew mentions it – Mark and John bypass it all together….all are Holy inspired writings/recordings.
Jesus Himself never talks about it or preaches it – and the epistles never mention it in detail or refer to it as being that significant as part of what was necessary for the salvation to those they were evangelizing.

guanophore:
If more of us were mindful of the teaching “whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren, that you do unto me” I suspect that our families would be a lot healthier, as would society as a whole.

That’s a given!

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
The humble, faithful, obedient hand maiden of God, whose heart was pierced when she witnessed her son crucified, now also witnesses glory and honor being pointed towards her, instead of towards her son, her Savior…our Savior.

guanophore:
I am sure if she witnessed such a sin, those people are in her prayers. Just as then angels who corrected people that fell before them, seeing the glory of God reflected through them, she will tell them to stand up, and “do whatever He tells you”. This misplaced devotion is nothing new. Remember, even when Jesus was still on earth it was said. "While he was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it!” Luke 11:27-28

It’s nothing new – but by the way the Catholic Church has developed and embraced and taught
the Marian Theology – is it any wonder that misplaced devotion is still occurring ?

It’s ironic that you would use that particular verse – as I’ve seen others post it to establish that Jesus is referring to Mary for her obedience – thus confirming that she should be honored in conformance with the Catholic Church’s teachings.

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[fbl9]

Where in the NT do we see the apostles ever asking help from Mary? Where do we see them exhorting Christians to pray to her for help?

kinda hard for the apostle’s to exhort christians to pray for Mary’s help when she was still physically here…could you image the size of the book if every deed and word of the apostle’s was written down…Christ never said take it to a book, instead to the church…when will people ever learn that the church is a living teaching body and not a dead book…

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4403090]
I am sure if she witnessed such a sin, those people are in her prayers. Just as then angels who corrected people that fell before them, seeing the glory of God reflected through them, she will tell them to stand up, and “do whatever He tells you”. This misplaced devotion is nothing new. Remember, even when Jesus was still on earth it was said. " While he was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it!” Luke 11:27-28

If there ever was a place in the Gospels to exalt Mary the way the Catholic church has this would have been it. Instead He does not point people to Mary in any way but to Scriptures. It is those who hear the Word i.e. the Scriptures who are blessed and not those who honor Mary or pray to her.

The blessing she had because of her obedience to Him is available to us all.

This is true. However, Mary is not necessary as some kind of meditator to gain these blessings in Christ.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
The Catholic Church has developed and promulgated a theology around Mary

guanophore:
Actually, this is not true. The theology that was developed was around Christ. The Marion doctrines were corollaries. If you ever studied any logic or geometry, you will know that you cannot have a corollary without a principle “proof”. All the doctrines of Mary emanate from Christocentric theology. I don’t think one who has not studied the early heresies can appreciate this.

I know what I can appreciate – the “gospel message” as taught and preached by Jesus and the Apostles!

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
He was also clear, as were the Apostles, that there would be many false teachers and that HE was the one to turn too, to go too, to believe in and have faith in.

guanophore:
You seem to be assuming that asking for the prayers of those whose lives are given over in service to Him would somehow subtract from this. Why do you suppose that Paul encouraged intercession, if he thought it took away from Christ?

Paul didn’t encourage intercession to those that were no longer living among us….he encouraged the believers to pray for one another and for him.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
No.

guanophore:
REally?! If I came up to you, and greeted you “Hail Full of Grace”, or even “Hail, Oh Highly Favored One” you would not consider that a title used in a greeting? I did not say “Hail Leeann”, but Hail Katachetarmine".

Hail Full of Grace??? - a title??

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[AshleyBelle]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Their teachings are not “reflected” – they are there.

guanophore:
I will concede that everything present in the NT represents the Teachings of the Apostles. However, the notion that they are all contained therein is false, and there are passages that are very obscure.

I will ask you again. Why do you think there are any references to Mary in the NT?

Leeann:
I see no reason why they shouldn’t be and no great significance that they have to be.

Why is it not significant that Mary is mentioned so much in the NT? She is very clearly a part of the “gospel message.” There are so many occasions when God could have just left her out of the gospel message… Why did Jesus NEED to be born of Mary? He could have just been manifested on the earth, already a grown man. Why did Mary bring the wine to her son’s attention at the wedding feast? Even though He told her “my hour has not yet come, why does this concern me?” He STILL performed the miracle…and Mary said “do whatever He tells you…” Why did they include that whole dialogue in the Bible? If it is ONLY Jesus who is a part of the “pure gospel message.” why did they bother having Mary in that whole miracle?
If she is not a part of the gospel, why did they include Jesus, on the cross, offering His mother as THEIR mother? It was one of the last thing He said before He died…why would He have “wasted” His last words on Mary if she is not a part of “the gospel message”

Mary is almost always present with Christ in the new testament. She is given titles of honor by the angels, she is obedient to Christ, and finally in revelation, we see her standing in the heavens with a crown of twelve stars!

How can it “Be of no great significance” that the Bible speaks so highly of Mary? She is a part of the gospel message, just John the Baptist preparing the way for the Lord is a part of the gospel message… just as Christ giving Peter authority over His church on earth is a part of the gospel message… Just as the Miracles Jesus performed a part of it… The passion of our Lord… His parables, His sermon on the mount, His temptation in the desert, His prayer in the Garden, His betrayal… The apostles, His disciples, His mother, Saint Joseph… ALL of these are a part of THE Gospel message! All of it is important, and all of it was given to us for a reason.

When we say “reader’s digest” version…we are referring to the gospel message which takes ONLY the parts somebody else has deemed “important” and builds a religion of their own.

 

[Leeann]

Ashleybelle:

When I first began praying the rosary, I had an experience that I can credit to none other than the Holy Spirit working through this amazing prayer. I was meditating on the joyful mysteries, and had just started the nativity. As I prayed to Mary, and focused on the Child Christ in her arms… I was moved beyond words! Right there in the pew, it was as if God had made this scene more real than anything else around me. I felt that I could literally reach out and stroke the baby’s cheek. And as I concentrated on all of this, one other thing stood out so clearly to me. I looked at Mary…and there I saw her full of love, pride, awe, wonder and amazement! I will never get that scene out of my mind…God’s son, cradled in the arms of our mother.

Remembering the rosary, got me to thinking about the sorrowful mysteries. I always have such a hard time praying these…because it brings me to tears to meditate on the passion of our Lord. I’ve been guilty of avoiding these mysteries, because I can’t bear to truly meditate on the reality of His pain, suffering, and death. Then I realized something… Jesus gave us His mother, so that we could focus on Him!

It takes no honor from Mary to focus on Jesus as He is NOW…alive and triumphant!
As a mother, imagine how honored that would make Mary feel !!!

AshleyBelle:

Imagine yourself, at the foot of the cross. There is our Lord, broken, beaten, pouring out His blood for us! You are overwhelmed with love and you just want to reach out to Him! To take Him down from the cross, heal His wounds and comfort Him! But you can’t… you are powerless… You stand amid the crowd, and reach out your arms… But Jesus can’t reach back. All He can do is gaze at you, with His beautiful, loving eyes. What do you do? You could fall down and weep! And then…while you are kneeling, weeping…you feel a hand on your shoulder. Is it Jesus? You turn… And there, is Mary. She puts her arms around you, and you weep together! She holds your hand at the foot of the cross while you stand together at your savior’s feet. The woman who cradled Him as a child, raised Him with love, and the woman who stood by Him even to His death… She now holds you in her arms and points you to Her son.

And then…as the two of you gaze up at our Lord, he looks at you once more, His eyes still full of love. He utters to Mary “Behold, your son.” And then to you, as you continue to weep while Mary hold’s your hand… “Behold, your mother.”

This is why Mary is so imortant to us! She was a part of the “gospel message” that Christ came to give us… She is there throughout the Bible, obeying God, teaching us to obey her son, and sharing the love of her son with all of us. Why did God choose to give us Mary? Why is she even in the Bible? He could have given us Jesus, already a man, and skipped the whole virgin birth. But He chose her for a reason! God knows our hearts even better than we know our own…and he gave us Mary, so that we could focus on Christ.

God gave us His Son – so that we could focus on HIM!

 

[Leeann]

AshleyBelle:

So… if the pope was standing at the foot of the cross, weeping for our Lord… Who would he turn to for comfort? Who would put her arms around him and point to her son as they weep together? Mary

My question is…why is the Pope standing at the foot of the cross weeping for our Lord, when he could be kneeling before Him at His throne of Grace?

You see……Jesus is *not on that *cross anymore….He is not dead….He is living and sitting at the right hand of our Father in heaven….He is waiting and desiring that you and me and the Pope come to HIM…that’s why He suffered and hung on the cross and shed His blood for us…so that you and me and the Pope would have direct access in times of doubt, distress, fears, needs of any kind….He IS willing and able and fully ACCESSABLE to those who truly believe and have faith in HIM to do what He has promised to do.

To focus on JESUS - as He was tempted by satan, as He faced persecution and hatred, as He overcame grief and sorrow when His friends let Him down, as He humbled Himself and allowed them to mock Him, scourge Him and nail Him to that cross, as He triumphantly rose and ascended into heaven where He now reigns as our HIGH PRIEST….will bring you closer to who He really IS - than by meditating on Mary holding a baby in her arms or any of the saints that have gone before….simply because you will be “there”…in HIM…in HIS presence.

There should be no fear in approaching Him because we may not be “worthy” to do so – He loves us – He shed His blood for us – and as you stated – He already knows us better than we know ourselves – He knows the desires of our hearts and our true needs and our motives better than we do – and He is able and willing to answer us – if we only believe this, ask HIM and accept with faith what His Will is to be in our lives and trust what the scriptures say:

Heb 4: 11 – 16 (Douay Rheims)

11 Let us hasten therefore to enter into that rest; lest any man fall into the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature invisible in his sight: but all things are naked and open to his eyes, to whom our speech is.
14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.
16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And that’s the whole problem in a nutshell. . .the idea that focusing on Jesus means that we focus on Him **alone **and that any other acknowledgment of any other person–be it Mary, St. Paul, St. Peter, etc. somehow ‘takes the focus away’ from Jesus.

This is not a competition. Acknowledging the Virgin Mary as having a role beyond a “God used and then discarded her” (the role that most Protestants view her in even when they say they ‘call her blessed’) in that she did not ‘cease’ to be Christ’s mother (just as our own parents don’t suddenly stop being our parents when they die) and that she --the woman who was blessed enough to raise Him and be with Him for 30 years before His ministry, who stood with Him by the Cross, and was with the Apostles at Pentecost–is still pointing us to Him, doesn’t take the focus ‘away from Christ’ but in fact turns us even closer to Him.

We’re a family, we have Christ in each other, and we see Christ in each other, especially in the woman who bore Him and the men and women who knew Him in the flesh. In a way, we see Christ ‘more’ because we are seeing Him in many.

 

[AshleyBelle]

My question is…why is the Pope standing at the foot of the cross weeping for our Lord, when he could be kneeling before Him at His throne of Grace?

You see……Jesus is *not on that *cross anymore….He is not dead….He is living and sitting at the right hand of our Father in heaven….He is waiting and desiring that you and me and the Pope come to HIM…that’s why He suffered and hung on the cross and shed His blood for us…so that you and me and the Pope would have direct access in times of doubt, distress, fears, needs of any kind….He IS willing and able and fully ACCESSABLE to those who truly believe and have faith in HIM to do what He has promised to do.

To focus on JESUS - as He was tempted by satan, as He faced persecution and hatred, as He overcame grief and sorrow when His friends let Him down, as He humbled Himself and allowed them to mock Him, scourge Him and nail Him to that cross, as He triumphantly rose and ascended into heaven where He now reigns as our HIGH PRIEST….will bring you closer to who He really IS - than by meditating on Mary holding a baby in her arms or any of the saints that have gone before….simply because you will be “there”…in HIM…in HIS presence.

There should be no fear in approaching Him because we may not be “worthy” to do so – He loves us – He shed His blood for us – and as you stated – He already knows us better than we know ourselves – He knows the desires of our hearts and our true needs and our motives better than we do – and He is able and willing to answer us – if we only believe this, ask HIM and accept with faith what His Will is to be in our lives and trust what the scriptures say:

Heb 4: 11 – 16 (Douay Rheims)

11 Let us hasten therefore to enter into that rest; lest any man fall into the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature invisible in his sight: but all things are naked and open to his eyes, to whom our speech is.
14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.
16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.

Leeann… What is the power of Christ?

Is our salvation done in the work of His ressurection? Or was His saving work for us on the cross?

The power of Christ is not just in His seat of glory in heaven… The POWER is found in Him, broken, bleeding and beaten for us… The power is Christ crucified for our sins. I will stand at the foot of the cross, and weep at the love poured out for me… I will rejoice in Christ risen, and I will remember that it was His work on the CROSS which offers my salvation.

And I will stand before Christ crucified, with His mother, my mother, Mary.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Their teachings are not “reflected” – they are there.

guanophore:
I will concede that everything present in the NT represents the Teachings of the Apostles. However, the notion that they are all contained therein is false, and there are passages that are very obscure.

I will ask you again. Why do you think there are any references to Mary in the NT?

Response by Leeann:
I see no reason why they shouldn’t be and no great significance that they have to be.

AshleyBelle:

Why is it not significant that Mary is mentioned so much in the NT? She is very clearly a part of the “gospel message.”

Apparently not the “gospel message” that Jesus and the Apostles preached and taught for the salvation of all mankind……as they never say ……”you must believe on Mary, that she was a virgin, that she was born sinless, lived sinless all her life, died (or maybe not) and was assumed into heaven and in order to obtain salvation……” – do they?

AshleyBelle:

There are so many occasions when God could have just left her out of the gospel message… Why did Jesus NEED to be born of Mary? He could have just been manifested on the earth, already a grown man. Why did Mary bring the wine to her son’s attention at the wedding feast? Even though He told her “my hour has not yet come, why does this concern me?” He STILL performed the miracle…and Mary said “do whatever He tells you…” Why did they include that whole dialogue in the Bible? If it is ONLY Jesus who is a part of the “pure gospel message.” why did they bother having Mary in that whole miracle?
If she is not a part of the gospel, why did they include Jesus, on the cross, offering His mother as THEIR mother?

They didn’t – it is recorded that Jesus turned Mary over into John’s care and vice versa.

AshleyBelle:
It was one of the last thing He said before He died…why would He have “wasted” His last words on Mary if she is not a part of “the gospel message”.

Mary was his mother. He loved her.

AshleyBelle:
Mary is almost always present with Christ in the new testament. She is given titles of honor by the angels, she is obedient to Christ, and finally in revelation, we see her standing in the heavens with a crown of twelve stars!

Interestingly enough, Mary was not present when Jesus ascended into heaven.
That was a pretty big event to be left out of.

AshleyBelle:
How can it “Be of no great significance” that the Bible speaks so highly of Mary? She is a part of the gospel message, just John the Baptist preparing the way for the Lord is a part of the gospel message… just as Christ giving Peter authority over His church on earth is a part of the gospel message… Just as the Miracles Jesus performed a part of it… The passion of our Lord… His parables, His sermon on the mount, His temptation in the desert, His prayer in the Garden, His betrayal… The apostles, His disciples, His mother, Saint Joseph… ALL of these are a part of THE Gospel message! All of it is important, and all of it was given to us for a reason.

Yes it was important and it is AshleyBelle.

However, all of what you’ve posted above – will not bring about a person’s salvation……the ONLY part that does that and can stand on its “own”……is the “gospel message” that the Apostles were commissioned by Jesus to go and **preach and teach **– that being about HIS shed blood for the remission of sins for all mankind.

AshleyBelle:
When we say “reader’s digest” version…we are referring to the gospel message which takes ONLY the parts somebody else has deemed “important” and builds a religion of their own.

Oh yes…I’ve heard that expression before, and fully understand what it is meant to mean.

When* I* say the “gospel message” as preached and taught by Jesus and the Apostles it is the “gospel message” that THEY deemed important, because it had all the information “necessary” for the salvation of all mankind. THAT is the “gospel message” that they warn us to hold fast too and to not accept any other.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Why do you believe Catholics think anything other than the blood of Christ is saving?

Where has anybody or any teaching said that salvation is through Mary?

 

[guanophore]

This prayer is very reminiscent of the old testament prophets crying out to God the Father. To apply it to other than God in a public setting as the Vicar of Christ is just wrong and misleading. It’s idolatry.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

If you feel this way, then I strongly urge you not to use this prayer in public. You might also wish to write the pope, and reprimand him.

 

[guanophore]

Where in the NT do we see the apostles ever asking help from Mary? Where do we see them exhorting Christians to pray to her for help?

It is right there next to the instructions left for you on how to pluck at the beards of Catholics, and constantly find fault with the faith practices of others.

Proof is needed for the truth and it is a defense against false teachings.

As I have said, you are looking in the wrong place. You might wish to look up a discussion forum for the scientific faith. The Catholic faith is based on Revelation from God, not something from the limited human mind such as “proofs”. Maybe a math discussion board for you? I remember a lot of “proofs” from geometry class.

See our previous comment. The matters and what people believe impacts how they live. If you studied the Scriptures more you would find that they put a premium on truth.

I dont’ have a problem with Truth. unlike you, I believe that the most pure form of Truth comes by revelation from God. You seem to prefer truths that you are able to grasp with your human mind, which is fine. You will not find them here. We are not part of the Church of Science here.

Truth is not based upon what ja4 thinks can be proved. It is based on what God has revealed to us about what is True.

What did Paul do in Acts 17:16-34? Do you think he took your kind of attitude?

I see that Paul was able to respect those who had a different faith than he did. He commended them by saying “I see that in every way you are very religious”. You, on the other hand, are unable to demonstrate this kind of respect for people who believe differently than you. Your intolerance and bigotry make you a poor witness of your “proved” faith.

By using this example you imply that catholics are Pagans and idol worshippers.

Think of how much your pleasant your life would be if you took a month or 2 away from CAF? Think of how refreshing that would be for you and your gang?

We will soon find out!

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

My question is…why is the Pope standing at the foot of the cross weeping for our Lord, when he could be kneeling before Him at His throne of Grace?

You see……Jesus is not on that cross anymore….He is not dead….He is living and sitting at the right hand of our Father in heaven….He is waiting and desiring that you and me and the Pope come to HIM…that’s why He suffered and hung on the cross and shed His blood for us…so that you and me and the Pope would have direct access in times of doubt, distress, fears, needs of any kind….He IS willing and able and fully ACCESSABLE to those who truly believe and have faith in HIM to do what He has promised to do.

To focus on JESUS - as He was tempted by satan, as He faced persecution and hatred, as He overcame grief and sorrow when His friends let Him down, as He humbled Himself and allowed them to mock Him, scourge Him and nail Him to that cross, as He triumphantly rose and ascended into heaven where He now reigns as our HIGH PRIEST….will bring you closer to who He really IS - than by meditating on Mary holding a baby in her arms or any of the saints that have gone before….simply because you will be “there”…in HIM…in HIS presence.

There should be no fear in approaching Him because we may not be “worthy” to do so – He loves us – He shed His blood for us – and as you stated – He already knows us better than we know ourselves – He knows the desires of our hearts and our true needs and our motives better than we do – and He is able and willing to answer us – if we only believe this, ask HIM and accept with faith what His Will is to be in our lives and trust what the scriptures say:

Heb 4: 11 – 16 (Douay Rheims)

11 Let us hasten therefore to enter into that rest; lest any man fall into the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature invisible in his sight: but all things are naked and open to his eyes, to whom our speech is.
14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.
16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.

AshleyBelle:

Leeann… What is the power of Christ?

Is our salvation done in the work of His ressurection? Or was His saving work for us on the cross?

The power of Christ is not just in His seat of glory in heaven… The POWER is found in Him, broken, bleeding and beaten for us… The power is Christ crucified for our sins. I will stand at the foot of the cross, and weep at the love poured out for me… I will rejoice in Christ risen, and I will remember that it was His work on the CROSS which offers my salvation.

And I will stand before Christ crucified, with His mother, my mother, Mary.

Just don’t leave Him hanging there….He’s alive and well and desiring for you to come to HIM, humbly believing that He is able and willing to meet all your needs.

You will honour both Mary and Jesus by doing so.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Just don’t leave Him hanging there….He’s alive and well and desiring for you to come to HIM, humbly believing that He is able and willing to meet all your needs.

You will honour both Mary and Jesus by doing so.

You miss a crucial part of our faith, though Christ is indeed risen! He is also present, among us. In the eucharist we do not “re-sacrifice” Christ, or “keep Him hanging” on the cross…

Catholics believe Christ’s sacrifice has NOT ended… His work on the cross, and His work of salvation in our lives is an ongoing process. He is truly present in the mass, when we partake of His body, blood and divinity. We are not just symbolizing what happened, we are actually PARTICIPATING in the work of our salvation

Why is it that Catholic churches all portray Christ on the cross, and protestant churches all portray an empty cross?

 

[guanophore]

If there ever was a place in the Gospels to exalt Mary the way the Catholic church has this would have been it. Instead He does not point people to Mary in any way but to Scriptures. It is those who hear the Word i.e. the Scriptures who are blessed and not those who honor Mary or pray to her.

Sorry, ja4, but this is not correct. First of all, He affirms that she is blessed EVEN MORE because she heard the word of God, and obeyed it. FUrther, this is no reference to Scripture, but to the angel Gabriel, who was sent to her by God, and announced the plan. She was the handmaid of the Lord and was obedient. The scriptures about this had not been written yet.

This is true. However, Mary is not necessary as some kind of meditator to gain these blessings in Christ.

God chose her. God could have done it however He wanted. He chose to include Mary in HIs plan.

 

[guanophore]

Not at all. I’m objecting that her name is not mentioned in any Jesus/Apostles’ teachings/preaching of the “gospel message”…or that any reference is given to encourage prayer to/through the saints that are in heaven……which would include Mary.

Well, we read it differently.

Catholics believe that all that is written is for our instruction.

It doesn’t take any distilling to see the gospel message – unless of course things have been added to it that aren’t present in the first place.

If that were true, you would not be trying to excise part of the NT out, and “prove” that Mary is not upon the lips of the preachers. The fact that she is included in the NT is proof that she was part of the Gospel message. The Apostles did not insert extraneous matter into the preaching or the writings.

I see no reason why they shouldn’t be and no great significance that they have to be.

At least we are in agreement on the first part. There is no reason that Mary should be left out of the gospel message. That is why she is in the NT writings.

No – I’ve never said that – those are *your* words – not mine.

Peter preached Jesus at the Pentecost sermon – not Mary. That’s just the way it was.
My quote above – “Mary isn’t left out” – is in relation to the fact that she’s mentioned accordingly to her significance, - that may not satisfy what the Catholic church needs, but that’s just the way it is.

I never thought of it as a “need”. However, I guess God knows what we have need of before we ask it. Here is an early Christian Hymn referred to in Latin as Magnificant (my soul magnifies)

My soul magnifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant.
Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for the Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
His mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts.
He has brought down the powerful from their thrones,
and lifted up the lowly;
he has filled the hungry with good things,
and sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,in remembrance of his mercy,
according to the promise he made to our ancestors,to Abraham and to his descendants forever."

This hymn has been sung by Christians since around the year 50. It is a Marian prayer. We pray it with her, as she has prayed it also since the conception.

I believe you know what I meant- sufficient to say – it’s “centered” on Him…and if it’s not “all about Him”…well only due to the alterations that have been made by the Catholic Church.

I don’t understand what “alterations” you are talking about. I am sorry, I a m handicapped by reading the scriptures by the point of view of those who wrote them. It is sometimes difficult for me to get out of this mindset. It is sometimes very difficult to try to understand what people see who look at them without the Apostolic Tradition. .

Whether Mary is or not – is not the question at hand – Jesus is still Lord and above ALL.

Yes. HE is generous,a nd shares His ministries with us. He has made us partakers of His grace. Mary is the firstfruits of redemption, and demonstrates what He wants to do in all of our lives.

 

[guanophore]

What “things got into Scripture – without them ever being taught” …??..that doesn’t make sense?

Well, I agree. You keep asserting that the Apostles did not teach these things, and I am saying, if they were not taught, they would not have ended up in the NT. There is nothing in there that was not taught by the Apostles.

Luke gives the most thorough recording of Christ’s birth and Mary’s participation is recorded, as is Elizabeth’s for John the Baptist…. Matthew mentions it – Mark and John bypass it all together….all are Holy inspired writings/recordings.

John does not bypass Mary. His gospel complements the others by preserving very special references to Mary, and the same for Revelation. John alone preserves Jesus’ reference to His mother as “Woman”, by which He means her to be the new Eve, the mother of all living - Woman as she was created to be.

Jesus Himself never talks about it or preaches it – and the epistles never mention it in detail or refer to it as being that significant as part of what was necessary for the salvation to those they were evangelizing.

Actually we do have references to Mary in Jesus’ teaching,a nd we have testimony that most of what he said and did was not contained in scripture, so none of us can say with authority what he “never said”. Further, one must not mistake the epistles to be containing “what was necessary for salvation”. They were letters written to certain communities and people to address specific situations. They were never meant to contain “all that is necessary” for the christian faith. Furthermore, all of the NT was written to those who had already been evangelized. The purpose of it was not to make converts, as that was the job given to the Church through the HS.

It’s nothing new – but by the way the Catholic Church has developed and embraced and taught
the Marian Theology – is it any wonder that misplaced devotion is still occurring ?

I think that misplaced devotion is human nature, and no, it is no wonder that it still occurs.

It’s ironic that you would use that particular verse – as I’ve seen others post it to establish that Jesus is referring to Mary for her obedience – thus confirming that she should be honored in conformance with the Catholic Church’s teachings.

I think it is both. One caveat, though, Marian devotion is not just “Catholic”, but is found in all the Churches founded by the Apostles, including those that have no love lost on Rome.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Not at all. I’m objecting that her name is not mentioned in any Jesus/Apostles’ teachings/preaching of the “gospel message”…or that any reference is given to encourage prayer to/through the saints that are in heaven……which would include Mary.

guanophore:
Well, we read it differently.

Catholics believe that all that is written is for our instruction.

And anything that isn’t written can be developed and added on later?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
It doesn’t take any distilling to see the gospel message – unless of course things have been added to it that aren’t present in the first place.

guanophore:
If that were true, you would not be trying to excise part of the NT out, and “prove” that Mary is not upon the lips of the preachers. The fact that she is included in the NT is proof that she was part of the Gospel message. The Apostles did not insert extraneous matter into the preaching or the writings.

That’s right…they didn’t….and as you can see they never once pointed the early believers to go to Mary (while living/or after) or to other believers that had died for intercessory prayer…they always pointed them to Jesus/God.
As for Mary being part of the “gospel message” that the Apostles preached and that is recorded in scripture – the “gospel message” pertaining to the salvation of all mankind – believing in Jesus and His blood sacrifice and resurrection……Mary’s name or the necessity of believing in her, is never mentioned.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I see no reason why they shouldn’t be and no great significance that they have to be.

guanophore:
At least we are in agreement on the first part. There is no reason that Mary should be left out of the gospel message. That is why she is in the NT writings.

Yes…but not the “gospel message” that the Apostles taught and preached as necessary for the salvation of all mankind.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
No – I’ve never said that – those are your words – not mine.
Peter preached Jesus at the Pentecost sermon – not Mary. That’s just the way it was.
My quote above – “Mary isn’t left out” – is in relation to the fact that she’s mentioned accordingly to her significance, - that may not satisfy what the Catholic church needs, but that’s just the way it is.

guanophore:
I never thought of it as a “need”. However, I guess God knows what we have need of before we ask it. Here is an early Christian Hymn referred to in Latin as Magnificant (my soul magnifies)

My soul magnifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant.
Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for the Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
His mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts.
He has brought down the powerful from their thrones,
and lifted up the lowly;
he has filled the hungry with good things,
and sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,in remembrance of his mercy,
according to the promise he made to our ancestors,to Abraham and to his descendants forever."

This hymn has been sung by Christians since around the year 50. It is a Marian prayer. We pray it with her, as she has prayed it also since the conception.

That’s nice.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I believe you know what I meant- sufficient to say – it’s “centered” on Him…and if it’s not “all about Him”…well only due to the alterations that have been made by the Catholic Church.

guanophore:
I don’t understand what “alterations” you are talking about. I am sorry, I am handicapped by reading the scriptures by the point of view of those who wrote them. It is sometimes difficult for me to get out of this mindset. It is sometimes very difficult to try to understand what people see who look at them without the Apostolic Tradition.

Try using the Holy Spirit the next time you read them.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Whether Mary is or not – is not the question at hand – Jesus is still Lord and above ALL.

guanophore:
Yes. HE is generous,and shares His ministries with us. He has made us partakers of His grace. Mary is the firstfruits of redemption, and demonstrates what He wants to do in all of our lives.

Now I’m not being sarcastic here guanophore, (I’m just tired of using that little green guy) but just stating it as it is, I guess Jesus didn’t mention that to the Apostles- as they forgot to mention that when they were preaching and teaching His gospel message…although they refer to themselves as examples in the Christian walk and to O.T. patriarchs and even to Jesus as an example…and the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire them to make any significant references suggesting that Mary should be used as an example of what He wants to do in all our lives – which was pretty important information to be left out for all those very, early first Christians….not to mention those that Jesus prayed for himself…to all those who would believe on their words.

 

[Leeann]

Leeann:
What “things got into Scripture – without them ever being taught” …??..that doesn’t make sense?

guanophore:
Well, I agree. You keep asserting that the Apostles did not teach these things, and I am saying, if they were not taught, they would not have ended up in the NT. There is nothing in there that was not taught by the Apostles.

guanophore – what things do I keep asserting that the Apostles did not teach that you believe are in the N.T.?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

Luke gives the most thorough recording of Christ’s birth and Mary’s participation is recorded, as is Elizabeth’s for John the Baptist…. Matthew mentions it – Mark and John bypass it all together….all are Holy inspired writings/recordings.

guanophore:
John does not bypass Mary. His gospel complements the others by preserving very special references to Mary, and the same for Revelation. John alone preserves Jesus’ reference to His mother as “Woman”, by which He means her to be the new Eve, the mother of all living - Woman as she was created to be.

Yes.
But my quote above is in response to a statement made by you with regards to Christ’s birth and Mary’s role in it.
Luke gives more detailed information – Matthew “mentions it” – Mark and John bypass it “Christ’s birth” and any mention of Mary’s role in it all together.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Jesus Himself never talks about it or preaches it – and the epistles never mention it in detail or refer to it as being that significant as part of what was necessary for the salvation to those they were evangelizing.

guanophore:
Actually we do have references to Mary in Jesus’ teaching,and we have testimony that most of what he said and did was not contained in scripture, so none of us can say with authority what he “never said”. Further, one must not mistake the epistles to be containing “what was necessary for salvation”. They were letters written to certain communities and people to address specific situations. They were never meant to contain “all that is necessary” for the christian faith.

First of all – what is my quote above in reference or response too??Thanks – then I can get back to it.
With regards to your last sentence above – the epistles and the gospel books do contain “all that is necessary” for a person’s salvation, if that is what you mean by “christian faith” – I guess we disagree…again.

guanophore:
Furthermore, all of the NT was written to those who had already been evangelized. The purpose of it was not to make converts, as that was the job given to the Church through the HS.

Sorry….I disagree again….”Christians” have been “made” without the aid of the Catholic Church and by the Grace of God and by His authority and His power, this will continue to happen.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
It’s ironic that you would use that particular verse – as I’ve seen others post it to establish that Jesus is referring to Mary for her obedience – thus confirming that she should be honored in conformance with the Catholic Church’s teachings.

guanophore:
I think it is both. One caveat, though, Marian devotion is not just “Catholic”, but is found in all the Churches founded by the Apostles, including those that have no love lost on Rome.

I suppose it’s the “degree” or to “what level” it has reached, what is the first thing people see when they look at the Catholic Church….or in keeping with this thread……turn too….or point too……Mary……or Jesus._