Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

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Would you reprimand him for saying this prayer?
Of course not! I don’t reprimand anyone about their personal prayer life, no matter how strange I think it is. As I have told you before, I dont’ have this compulsion that you and some of your peers here have to find fault with and criticize the spiritual practices of others. some of you seem to think it is your special ministry to go around pointing out the faults of others.

I would certainly be unlikely to address anyone with the personal piety of the pope, unless to request that I be allowed to share in his prayers. In the meantime, I will be busy getting the log out of my own eye, so that I can see the speck in someone elses.

Jesus was very clear that we are not to pull up the weeds in the wheat field. He specifically told the servants to leave them alone until the harvest. Those of you that delight in disobeying HIm will have to answer to Him for your actions. For myself, I intend to leave the job for the angels, as He directed.:o
 
Of course not! I don’t reprimand anyone about their personal prayer life, no matter how strange I think it is. As I have told you before, I dont’ have this compulsion that you and some of your peers here have to find fault with and criticize the spiritual practices of others. some of you seem to think it is your special ministry to go around pointing out the faults of others.

I would certainly be unlikely to address anyone with the personal piety of the pope, unless to request that I be allowed to share in his prayers. In the meantime, I will be busy getting the log out of my own eye, so that I can see the speck in someone elses.

Jesus was very clear that we are not to pull up the weeds in the wheat field. He specifically told the servants to leave them alone until the harvest. Those of you that delight in disobeying HIm will have to answer to Him for your actions. For myself, I intend to leave the job for the angels, as He directed.:o
So if a catholic in your sphere of influence says or believes something you know not to be what the church teaches you say nothing? :eek:
 
So if a catholic in your sphere of influence says or believes something you know not to be what the church teaches you say nothing? :eek:
That was quite a leap, ja4, and this question is off topc. The Pope is not within my sphere of influence. I influence him by my prayerful support, interceding for his intentions, and being obedient to his teachings.

I have not been appointed, as you seem to feel that you have, as scrubbing brush of the Catholic Church.
 
originally posted Leeann:
That is why I said:
“ Just don’t leave Him hanging there….He’s alive and well and desiring for you to come to HIM, humbly believing that He is able and willing to meet all your needs. “
Most protestant churches portray an empty cross – now – because He is alive and able and willing that all should come to Him.
utunumsint:
Quick question Leanne: why is it that after the resurrection, Christ’s wounds on his hands and his side remained? Why didn’t they dissapear? And why was the lamb in revelation like one who was slain but was still alive? Why did God allows the marks of his crucifixion to remain in his flesh?
It certainly helped Thomas to believe that Christ had actually died and “risen” as He said He would, when He invited him to put his hand into His wound!

As to the reference of the “lamb” in Revelation - being Jesus, similar reference is made in **Isaiah 53 V7 **- He was led as a lamb to the slaugter,and a sheep before the shearers is slient, so He opened not His mouth…and in John 1 V29 - The next day John (the Baptist) saw Jesus coming toward him, and said "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

I’m not sure if this is what you mean or what you are asking…let me know.
 
guanophore:
Do your friends who seem to idolize Mary go to Mass?
Leeann:
One frequently….the other not much at all.
guanophore:
The Apostolic Gospel contains “all that Jesus began to do and to teach”, and the instructions given to the apostles “teaching them to do all that I have commanded”. It did not start getting parted and parceled out until the Reformers decided things needed excising.
Mary has always been part of the “all”.😃
We read it differently.😃
Originally Posted by Leeann
Interestingly enough, Mary was not present when Jesus ascended into heaven.
That was a pretty big event to be left out of.
guanophore:
We don’t know that. She is not recorded, as most were not. I often wonder how often He visited her.
We have a pretty good reference recorded in:

Matthew 28: V16 – 19

16 **And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. **17 And seeing them they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

And a bit more in detail in

Acts 1: 12 – 14
(where the eleven disciples are named who were present – later returning to Jerusalem to be with the women and Mary)

9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were beholding him going up to heaven, behold two men stood by them in white garments. 11 Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven. 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount that is called Olivet, which is nigh Jerusalem, within a sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James. 14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
 
originally posted Leeann:
Try using the Holy Spirit the next time you read them. 😃
guanophore:
You seem to be suggesting that the HS is separated form the Apostolic Succession which He has formed, preserved, protected and guided.
Did you not read the letter from James in the book of Acts? Does the HS seem separated from the Apostles in that account?
Oh never from the Apostles!🙂
 
**Originally Posted by Leeann **
However, all of what you’ve posted above – will not bring about a person’s salvation……the ONLY part that does that and can stand on its “own”……is the “gospel message” that the Apostles were commissioned by Jesus to go and preach and teach – that being about HIS shed blood for the remission of sins for all mankind.
guanophore:
While I agree that this is the core of the gospel, this is not, by far, all they taught. “They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” Acts 2:41-42
These were people who accepted the Readers’ Digest version of the gospel you are promoting. If that was all there was to it, why would they need to devote themselves to Apostolic teaching, fellowship, breaking of the bread, and prayers? It seems, for some reason, it is important for you to separate training in discipleship from the “gospel”. ??
That’s because “Training in discipleship” has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Jesus’ shed blood for the remission of sins for all mankind. Notice now I didn’t say it isn’t important…just that it’s not the same as the effectiveness/sufficiency of His blood…which is indeed the “core” of the gospel message – what was/is “necessary” .
Paul records it beautifully in his epistle to the Colossians.
 
I’m curious…

How do you think Catholics worship?

And how would you contrast that to non-catholic Christian worship?
 
John Paul II was cautioned by Cardinal Ratzinger in 1997.
See page 2 in this link by the National Catholic Reporter.
"This proposed dogma is unique in that it clearly does not enjoy the full support of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith or its prefect, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who cautioned the Holy Father over a year ago not to push the teachings."

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_n34_v33/ai_19633321/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

Pope may declare Mary ‘coredemptrix.’ - Pope John Paul II: but many argue against a co-redeemer concept - Cover Story

Tim Unsworth
At 77 and in uneven health, John Paul II invests virtually every allocution with some mention of his advancing years and of his devotion to Mary, the mother of Jesus. Before he dies, he may decide to use his charism of infallibility to elevate Mary’s crown another tier.

Reports from Rome, the U.S. Catholic press and even Time magazine suggest the pope will cap his career by infallibly declaring Mary Coredemptrix of Humanity, Mediatrix of All Graces and Advocate for the People of God. Such a move would be the first time since 1950, when the doctrine of the Assumption was promulgated, that a pope has exercised his power of infallibility. It would bring to five the number of Marian definitions since she was declared the Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

Her perpetual virginity was declared at the third Council of Constantinople 250 years later, in 681. In 1854, the Church defined the Immaculate Conception.

The proposed new teaching is certain to raise theological eyebrows. Pius IX had written to and received approval from his fellow bishops before declaring the Immaculate Conception to be an article of faith. Pius XII did the same nearly a century later. A unilateral declaration of Mary as coredemptrix would likely be received with anger, even by bishops prepared to support the pope.

Popes have shunned coredemptrix talk for over 50 years. Prior to this, a mixture of devotion and hyperbole combined to bring coredemtrix and its synonyms into the language. Writers such as Alphonsus Liguori and Louis de Montfort and popes from Leo XIII (1878-1903) through Pius XI (1922-1939) used the term freely. Leo devoted 11 of his 60 encyclicals to Mary, but no pope took the definition beyond an accommodated sense.

Vatican II pretty much decided not to give Mary any more titles. To declare a Marian dogma now would not only reintroduce the still controversial issue of papal infallibility but also raise ecumenical difficulties. According to Time magazine’s religion writer Richard N. Ostling, “Protestants and the Orthodox would go into orbit, feeling Christ has been demeaned as the unique Savior” (Time, June 16).

Ironically, because a “coredeemer” would by definition be a priest, the proposed dogma could bring aid and comfort to the growing number of those who support the ordination of women.

“No way,” several priests said over a luncheon recently. “No way. The pope can only define what the church already believes. And this notion has been rejected over and over again. He just can’t do it.”

Yet, some Vatican watchers suggest that such cautions will not likely deter John Paul II. Mark L. Miravalle, professor of Marian Theology at Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio, has edited a book of essays, Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate. Theological Foundation II: Papal, Pneumatological, Ecumenical (Queenship Publishing, Santa Barbara, Calif. 1996). According to Miravalle, the date has been set: John Paul II will promulgate the dogma on May 31, 1998, the feast of Pentacost and previously the liturgical feast of Mediatrix of All Graces, granted by Benedict XV.

NCR attempted to reach Dr. Miravalle at Franciscan University but was informed that he was out of the country. Allegedly, he has met privately at least twice with John Paul II.

Talk of “Mary, coredemptrix,” has faded dramatically since Vatican II, largely because of the pastoral and ecumenical difficulties it raises. Its history dates to the patristic era when Mary, by her consent at the Annunciation and her actual maternity, brought redemption into the world.

Early medieval teaching has Mary offering Christ in the sacrifice of the cross. Jesus’ wounds are suffered in Mary’s heart. Thus, she actively shares in the redemptive work of her son.

Later medieval thought places Mary in heaven, distributing the fruits of Christ’s redemption to unworthy sinner. (In Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel ceiling, we find Mary, standing under Christ’s threatening raised right arm, pleading on behalf of other mortals.)

Such dramatic visions can lead to misunderstandings. They can reduce Christ to one half of a team of redeemers.

(cont’d…)
 
(…cont’d)

In practice, when the teaching was more popular, it often lent the impression that a vengeful Jesus – arm upraised to strike as in Michelangelo’s painting – is holding back only because of Mary’s intercession. However, Benedictine theologian Martin John Horak reminds us that official teaching holds that Christ alone, God and man, is redeemer in the full, proper and absolute sense of the term.

A more cautious and contemporary view considers coredemption not an intrinsic participation in the redemptive work of Christ but an acceptance of it. According to Fr. Horak, “By her ‘fiat’ to the Incarnation and Passion, Mary accepts Christ’s redemption.”

Vatican II gently closed the door to further promotion of the teaching. Lumen Gentium devoted a paragraph that said, in part, “By her maternal charity, Mary cares for the brethren of her Son who still journey on earth surround by dangers and difficulties. … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. These, however, are to be so understood that they neither take away from nor add anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.”

Thank you for posting this information ron77nyc! 🎉
 
Oh but it does 🙂 !

Col 3:

1 Therefore, if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above; where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God: 2 Mind the things that are above, not the things that are upon the earth.

and again:

Hebrews 4:

14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin. 16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.
these scripture verses mean???in regards to how an empty symbol has any meaning…by not having Christ on the cross you have emptied it of the power of salvation…our salvation occured not on the resurection but on the sacrfice of the cross…
 
Going on **HOLIDAY **until Nov 23rd!!! :tanning:

Will check back in when we return!

In the meantime……to whom would the Apostles point the Pope too……Mary….or Jesus?

God Bless!
 
these scripture verses mean???in regards to how an empty symbol has any meaning…by not having Christ on the cross you have emptied it of the power of salvation…our salvation occured not on the resurection but on the sacrfice of the cross…
Well…if you want to get really “technical”…no “symbol” has any “power”…it is a symbol.

The power is in Jesus’ blood for the remission of our sins, those scriptures “say what they say”…🤷

Gotta go pack!
Thank you for posting fb19 - God Bless!
 
Going on **HOLIDAY **until Nov 23rd!!! :tanning:

Will check back in when we return!

In the meantime……to whom would the Apostles point the Pope too……Mary….or Jesus?

God Bless!
In pointing to Mary they point to Jesus because she is pointing to Jesus. This is not a competition and it never was. In praying to Mary we follow Scripture and Tradition which tells us that in Christ Jesus we are alive, that God is God of the Living, that the prayer of a righteous man avails much, that we are all members of His Body, that the early Christians likewise engaged in prayer to and for those who were martyrs or otherwise died ‘In the Faith’ (see descriptions of these prayers and petitions in the Roman catacombs where the early Christians met while Christianity was a prohibited religion), that Mary brought Christ to us on earth and remains His mother for eternity, that she as His mother knew Him as a mother and loved Him as a Mother, and that loving Him as both son and Savior she is (as any normal mother) His most devoted and loving follower whose last recorded words in Scripture are the words she is still saying today, “Do whatever He tells us.”

Why on earth anybody would be so confused as to set Mary up as some kind of ‘opposition’ to Jesus boggles my very Christian mind.
 
Oh but it does 🙂 !

Col 3:

1 Therefore, if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above; where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God: 2 Mind the things that are above, not the things that are upon the earth.

and again:

Hebrews 4:

14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin. 16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.
The plain cross / crucifix argument is another non-starter. A plain cross is the sign of crucifixion. Many were crucified and did not rise from the dead. So, in itself, a plain cross is meaningless. However, in our day the cross is associated exclusively with the sacrifice of Christ and when people see it, THAT is what it means: Christ.

On the other hand, the crucifix brings to mind the means by which Christ gained salvation for the world. It calls to mind that love and suffering are united. It calls to mind the beneficence and generosity of God in becoming truly incarnate as one of us.

Quibbling that one symbol is “correct” or “better” and the other is “wrong” is just empty posturing and an indulgence in needless controversy.

Proponents of uncritical primitivism in practict should keep in mind that the use of ANY cross at ALL in Christian iconography did not arise until well into the fourth century. That iconography reflects development of devotion in the wake of Constantine’s last official act as Emperor: abolishing the use of the cross as an instrument of execution.
 
Quote= Leeann, That’s the best name to do anything in…including prayer.

Quote=onenow1,Yes, Yes, Yes, now reach a little deeper into intercessary prayer, such as when you ask someone to pray for you, or you look at the beauty in nature, all from our Master.

If we are loved much more then the birds of the air, think of how much more the Mother of our Lord is Loved.

Leeann everything the CC teaches is directed to God the Father in the name Jesus even the prayers to Mary.

A few more things I would like you to note, how the church in prayer greets her as Hail Mary, and How the Angel greets her as full of grace.

The Lord is always with Mary, after all she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. Remember the Trinity Leeann, three persons in one yet distinct.

Peace, onenow1:thumbsup:

P.S. May your holiday be filled with joy !
 
Leeann:
One frequently….the other not much at all.
What does that one say about where the Pope should be pointed?
We read it differently.😃
yes, I realize. Many people are content with the Readers’ Digest version of stories. Some have a short attention span, and don’t like to read long books, some are very busy, and don’t have time for a whole novel, but what a short distraction. Some people think that most books are full off extraneous drivel, and that the RD by passes all this. Committed RD readers cannot be pursuaded to read the novels from which the abridged stories came.
We have a pretty good reference recorded in:

Matthew 28: V16 – 19

16 **And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. **17 And seeing them they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

And a bit more in detail in

Acts 1: 12 – 14
(where the eleven disciples are named who were present – later returning to Jerusalem to be with the women and Mary)

9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were beholding him going up to heaven, behold two men stood by them in white garments. 11 Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven. 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount that is called Olivet, which is nigh Jerusalem, within a sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James. 14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
I am puzzled about why you wish to subtract Mary from these passages. :confused:
 
Oh never from the Apostles!🙂
OIC. So, then, in the passages you quoted, the other women and Mary were present with the Apostles. Does she also get to benefit from the unity of the Apostles and the HS?

When did the HS leave the Church?
That’s because “Training in discipleship” has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Jesus’ shed blood for the remission of sins for all mankind.
Wow. Well, the Catholic Church teaches that it has EVERYTHING to do with it. We believe that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross is the basis for everything we do and are as Christians.

We believe that His shed blood has opened heaven for us, and enabled us to conform our lives to His image:

" Since, then, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession." Heb 4:14

For us, becoming His disciples means that we hold fast to our confession, that for which He died. Without His shed blood, we have nothing to confess, and no reason to become disciples.
Notice now I didn’t say it isn’t important…just that it’s not the same as the effectiveness/sufficiency of His blood…which is indeed the “core” of the gospel message – what was/is “necessary” .
Paul records it beautifully in his epistle to the Colossians.
Catholics do not separate these things from one another. Separating and dividing is the fruit of the Reformation, but prior to that, every baptized Christian was considered to have been buried with Christ in His death, and raised to a new life. Raised to a life of obedience and service. For us, there is no Readers’ Digest version, it is all, or nothing.
 
In pointing to Mary they point to Jesus because she is pointing to Jesus. This is not a competition and it never was. In praying to Mary we follow Scripture and Tradition which tells us that in Christ Jesus we are alive, that God is God of the Living, that the prayer of a righteous man avails much, that we are all members of His Body, that the early Christians likewise engaged in prayer to and for those who were martyrs or otherwise died ‘In the Faith’ (see descriptions of these prayers and petitions in the Roman catacombs where the early Christians met while Christianity was a prohibited religion), that Mary brought Christ to us on earth and remains His mother for eternity, that she as His mother knew Him as a mother and loved Him as a Mother, and that loving Him as both son and Savior she is (as any normal mother) His most devoted and loving follower whose last recorded words in Scripture are the words she is still saying today, “Do whatever He tells us.”

Why on earth anybody would be so confused as** to set Mary up as some kind of ‘opposition’ to Jesus boggles my very Christian mind**.
I think it relates, at least in part, to a deficient understanding of the church, and the communion of saints. Virtually everyone who does this has truncated or absent conceptions of these doctrines. Most Protestants are not taught that we are made partakers of the divine grace, entering into His life and ministry. I think this is the fruit of the erroneous notion of total depravity.
 
I think it relates, at least in part, to a deficient understanding of the church, and the communion of saints. Virtually everyone who does this has truncated or absent conceptions of these doctrines. Most Protestants are not taught that we are made partakers of the divine grace, entering into His life and ministry. I think this is the fruit of the erroneous notion of total depravity.
It is the fruit of the exaggerated individualism that entered the culture with the rise of the middle class. “Me and Jesus” --** I** got my Bible, and I don’t need nothin’ or nobody else.
 
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