Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Ag_not]

Going on **HOLIDAY **until Nov 23rd!!! :tanning:

QUICK !!!

Turn off the lights and close the drapes

 

[Leeann]

I’m back!

Opening the drapes!!! :bounce:

 

[Good_Fella]

I’m back!

Opening the drapes!!! :bounce:

 

[guanophore]

I’m back!

Opening the drapes!!! :bounce:

From your mouth to God’s ear! May the light of Christ shine upon you!

 

[Ag_not]

I’m back!

Opening the drapes!!! :bounce:

Hope you had a great vacation

While you were away, we had a vision of Mary, who told us in a stern but loving voice, to tell the apostles to STOP POINTING, IT’S VERY BAD MANNERS !!!

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Apparently God didn’t think it was wrong to honor Mary. After all, He selected her as mother of His Son. Why didn’t He choose to send His Son directly to earth by bypassing Mary? Isn’t that what you’re asking us to do Leeann?

The majority of times God uses humans as His instruments. It doesn’t detract anything from Him nor His Son. As a matter of fact, it is how He shows forth and communicates His glory. In Rev. 17:14 and 19:16 Jesus is called the “King of kings,” yet in 1 Kings 15:22 and 28-37 it shows that God was not displeased but showed that it was permissible and appropriate for people to bow down, do homage to, and venerate the person of the king, even though he was a mere human being. In Josh. 5:13-15 an angel is venerated. The New Testament in Rev. 3:8-9 shows that Jesus will compel people to give honor to His followers, the saints, even by bowing down to them.

Now, if His servants are so honored on earth, does it make sense that they are no longer venerated in heaven? See Heb. 12:22-24

Do you believe it would be wrong for you to pray for someone else if they asked you to? Is that presumption? By what authority can one human pray for another? See 1 Tim. 2:1-4 Does that detract from Jesus?

If Mary was blessed on earth, do you think she is less blessed in heaven? Since humans can intercede for each other on earth, why should we think that someone in heaven cannot intercede for someone on earth? See Rev. 5:8

Mark 12:26-27

Mary is alive in heaven. She is my prayer warrior; I ask her to intercede for me. Any friend of God is a friend of mine.

All this says nothing about my adoration for the Father and His Son Jesus. I honor Mary, but I adore Jesus. The same adoration that the Father receives in Rev. 4, Jesus receives in Rev. 5. We honor Mary, but we worship the Father and the Son.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Because Catholics love God, they love His friends. And we know that because God loves us, His friends love us. Gal. 1:24; Phil. 3:17 and 1 Cor. 11:1

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Did you catch that? Paul said to become imitators of him, even as he is of Christ. Don’t you think he was kind of POINTING to HIMSELF, as well as to Christ?

 

[ron77nyc]

Did you catch that? Paul said to become imitators of him, even as he is of Christ. Don’t you think he was kind of POINTING to HIMSELF, as well as to Christ?

The Blessed Mother leads everyone to Jesus. Paul led everyone to Jesus. If we are to imitate them then we are to lead people to Jesus. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

[guanophore]

The Blessed Mother leads everyone to Jesus. Paul led everyone to Jesus. If we are to imitate them then we are to lead people to Jesus. Is there anything wrong with that?

I think the “wrong” that is seen here relates to the objection of elevating human beings to the ministry of reconciliation. Since Jesus is our One Mediator, there is some perception that we should go to “Jesus only” and not approach through others, or in any way facilitated by others, which seems to “take away from” the primacy of Christ.

 

[Leeann]

original by Mercygate:
The plain cross / crucifix argument is another non-starter.

I didn’t bring it up – AshleyBelle did.
Personally I have no problem with either, both bring to mind the sacrifice that took place,
my comments were in regards to leaving Him on it and not acknowledging that He is indeed a “risen Savior”…our High Priest.

Mercygate:

A plain cross is the sign of crucifixion. Many were crucified and did not rise from the dead. So, in itself, a plain cross is meaningless. However, in our day the cross is associated exclusively with the sacrifice of Christ and when people see it,THAT is what it means: Christ.

Well – that is how you see a plain cross….as being meaningless…. I and many others see it differently.

Mercygate:

On the other hand, the crucifix brings to mind the means by which Christ gained salvation for the world. It calls to mind that love and suffering are united. It calls to mind the beneficence and generosity of God in becoming truly incarnate as one of us.

Quibbling that one symbol is “correct” or “better” and the other is “wrong” is just empty posturing and an indulgence in needless controversy.

*see above

 

[Leeann]

original onenow1:

The Lord is always with Mary, after all she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. Remember the Trinity Leeann, three persons in one yet distinct.

I do remember the Trinity – 3 in one – yet distinct….not 4.

 

[Leeann]

Original tantum ergo:

In pointing to Mary they point to Jesus because she is pointing to Jesus. This is not a competition and it never was. In praying to Mary we follow Scripture and Tradition which tells us that in Christ Jesus we are alive, that God is God of the Living, that the prayer of a righteous man avails much, that we are all members of His Body, that the early Christians likewise engaged in prayer to and for those who were martyrs or otherwise died ‘In the Faith’ (see descriptions of these prayers and petitions in the Roman catacombs where the early Christians met while Christianity was a prohibited religion), that Mary brought Christ to us on earth and remains His mother for eternity, that she as His mother knew Him as a mother and loved Him as a Mother, and that loving Him as both son and Savior she is (as any normal mother) His most devoted and loving follower whose last recorded words in Scripture are the words she is still saying today, “Do whatever He tells us.”

But the Catholic Church doesn’t follow that…what Mary said. “Do whatever He tells you”.

If it did – the Pope would be praying publicly and demonstrating his and the Catholic Church’s faith in Jesus…not Mary.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by justasking4 **

Would you reprimand him for saying this prayer?

Response guanophore:

Of course not! I don’t reprimand anyone about their personal prayer life, no matter how strange I think it is. As I have told you before, I dont’ have this compulsion that you and some of your peers here have to find fault with and criticize the spiritual practices of others. some of you seem to think it is your special ministry to go around pointing out the faults of others.

I would certainly be unlikely to address anyone with the personal piety of the pope, unless to request that I be allowed to share in his prayers. In the meantime, I will be busy getting the log out of my own eye, so that I can see the speck in someone elses.

Jesus was very clear that we are not to pull up the weeds in the wheat field. He specifically told the servants to leave them alone until the harvest. Those of you that delight in disobeying HIm will have to answer to Him for your actions. For myself, I intend to leave the job for the angels, as He directed.

But this particular prayer is not part of the Pope’s “personal prayer life” – this particular prayer was done very “publicly” and therefore has an influence on those attending this service and an influence on the example he is setting……by praying to Mary……and stating he ‘wouldn’t know where to turn too’ if she would not help.

 

[Leeann]

Original by tantum ergo:
Why on earth anybody would be so confused as to set Mary up as some kind of ‘opposition’ to Jesus boggles my very Christian mind.

Might it have something to do with the super duper, quadalooper, hyper - skyper veneration that has developed over the centuries with regards to Mary?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

We have a pretty good reference recorded in:

Matthew 28: V16 – 19

16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing them they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

And a bit more in detail in

Acts 1: 12 – 14 (where the eleven disciples are named who were present – later returning to Jerusalem to be with the women and Mary)

9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were beholding him going up to heaven, behold two men stood by them in white garments. 11 Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven. 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount that is called Olivet, which is nigh Jerusalem, within a sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James. 14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Response guanophore:
I am puzzled about why you wish to subtract Mary from these passages.

I am puzzled why you wish to add “extra significance” to Mary from them.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Oh never from the Apostles!

Response guanophore:
OIC. So, then, in the passages you quoted, the other women and Mary were present with the Apostles. Does she also get to benefit from the unity of the Apostles and the HS?

Obviously you don’t C – my quote was in reference to Holy Spirit never leaving the Apostles – not the Catholic Church. But with regards to Mary benefiting from the unity of the Apostles and the HS……of course she would, just as the other women did.

guanophore:
When did the HS leave the Church?

The Holy Spirit has never left His Church – the body of true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship.

Originally Posted by Leeann

That’s because “Training in discipleship” has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Jesus’ shed blood for the remission of sins for all mankind.

Response guanophore:
Wow. Well, the Catholic Church teaches that it has EVERYTHING to do with it. We believe that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross is the basis for everything we do and are as Christians.

We believe that His shed blood has opened heaven for us, and enabled us to conform our lives to His image:

" Since, then, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession." Heb 4:14

For us, becoming His disciples means that we hold fast to our confession, that for which He died. Without His shed blood, we have nothing to confess, and no reason to become disciples.

Personally, I have no doubt that you guan and some others in here that have posted actually do understand and follow this in truth and faith, however based on what the Catholic Church teaches, ALL of what it teaches, especially in regards to Mary and what is evident from it’s “public image” - separate societies with the focus based on her – public shrines devoted to her – the Pope praying and dedicating the world – to her - the message you posted above becomes obscure………you see what I mean?

Originally Posted by Leeann
Notice now I didn’t say it isn’t important…just that it’s not the same as the effectiveness/sufficiency of His blood…which is indeed the “core” of the gospel message – what was/is “necessary” .
Paul records it beautifully in his epistle to the Colossians.

Response guanophore:
Catholics do not separate these things from one another. Separating and dividing is the fruit of the Reformation, but prior to that, every baptized Christian was considered to have been buried with Christ in His death, and raised to a new life. Raised to a life of obedience and service. For us, there is no Readers’ Digest version, it is all, or nothing.

The “training in discipleship” in any church of His, should not be any different than what was necessary and taught by His Apostles when they established those first churches.
Anything else is superfluous and ineffectual.

 

[Leeann]

Guanophore to Tantum ergo

**Originally Posted by Tantum ergo **
In pointing to Mary they point to Jesus because she is pointing to Jesus. This is not a competition and it never was. In praying to Mary we follow Scripture and Tradition which tells us that in Christ Jesus we are alive, that God is God of the Living, that the prayer of a righteous man avails much, that we are all members of His Body, that the early Christians likewise engaged in prayer to and for those who were martyrs or otherwise died ‘In the Faith’ (see descriptions of these prayers and petitions in the Roman catacombs where the early Christians met while Christianity was a prohibited religion), that Mary brought Christ to us on earth and remains His mother for eternity, that she as His mother knew Him as a mother and loved Him as a Mother, and that loving Him as both son and Savior she is (as any normal mother) His most devoted and loving follower whose last recorded words in Scripture are the words she is still saying today, “Do whatever He tells us.”

Why on earth anybody would be so confused as to set Mary up as some kind of ‘opposition’ to Jesus boggles my very Christian mind.

**Response guanophore: **
I think it relates, at least in part, to a deficient understanding of the church, and the communion of saints. Virtually everyone who does this has truncated or absent conceptions of these doctrines. Most Protestants are not taught that we are made partakers of the divine grace, entering into His life and ministry. I think this is the fruit of the erroneous notion of total depravity.

Could you expand on that last sentence guanophore….the “erroneous notion of total depravity”.

 

[mercygate]

I didn’t bring it up – AshleyBelle did.
Personally I have no problem with either, both bring to mind the sacrifice that took place,
my comments were in regards to leaving Him on it and not acknowledging that He is indeed a “risen Savior”…our High Priest.

In a Catholic context, of course, the risen savior rises from **death on the Cross **and without the death there IS no resurrection. That is all I meant by the “non starter” comment. It’s all context: Christian context. Catholic context. It is absurd for people (not you) to claim that a crucifix “keeps Christ on the Cross.” That’s just sniping. Again: not you, Leann.

Well – that is how you see a plain cross….as being meaningless…. I and many others see it differently.

No. I don’t see a plain cross as meaningless. A plain cross, taken in itself, is “meaningless” in that in itself it does not testify to the resurrection or even to the death of Christ. In itself, it is an instrument of torture. WE Christians see in it the death and resurrection of the Lord but as an object, taken out of context, it can mean anything – just as the empty tomb does not “mean” resurrection. It could mean that somebody stole the body. The empty cross could mean that Jesus survived the ordeal. Our Muslim buddies like that one!

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by guanophore **
I think it relates, at least in part, to a deficient understanding of the church, and the communion of saints. Virtually everyone who does this has truncated or absent conceptions of these doctrines. Most Protestants are not taught that we are made partakers of the divine grace, entering into His life and ministry. I think this is the fruit of the erroneous notion of total depravity.

Response Mercygate:
It is the fruit of the exaggerated individualism that entered the culture with the rise of the middle class. “Me and Jesus” – I got my Bible, and I don’t need nothin’ or nobody else.

Imagine that!
The middle class being able too, by God’s mercy and grace, have a personal relationship with Jesus. How complicated it must have been for the Catholic Church, when people were able to read and understand, again by the grace of God what His word actually says and means.