Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[fbl9]

I suppose it’s the “degree” or to “what level” it has reached, what is the first thing people see when they look at the Catholic Church….or in keeping with this thread……turn too….or point too……Mary……or Jesus._

i won’t put a number on it but i would guess most likely 100% of catholics would point to Christ in the Eucharist,then to Mary

 

[AshleyBelle]

Leeann…I’m not sure what it is you’re looking for here. You’ve expressed your concern that Catholics who “turn to” Mary in order to deepen our relationship with Christ, are in some way detracting from their relationship with Jesus.

But so many here have expressed quite the opposite, and yet that’s “not enough” for you. You express your desire for us to have a “personal relationship” with Jesus… But what it seems to me you really mean, is that you want us to have the kind of personal relationship YOU have…

Is it that hard to fathom that Catholics know, love, and worship Christ with as much passion as you? Has there been any reason to believe we are not sincere in our devotion, our dependence and faith in His gift of salvation?

Perhaps we have a “different” kind of relationship than you…But believe me when I say with all sincerity that Jesus is the summit of our faith. Jesus and God alone recieve our worship and glory. I have learned to love Jesus with my whole heart, in a deeper more meaningful way than I ever realized possible…By experiencing Him present in the eucharist! It is truly a miracle and the greatest gift we have on this earth.Christ present and dwelling within us

I don’t know where you want this thread to go…unless you think somwhere in the circles we’ve gone in, you’ll have “the” argument to show us that we’re all “missing” on a real relationship with Jesus because of our devotion to Mary. But nobody here is going to convince you otherwise. You’ve decided that your relationship with Jesus is the way everybody should love Him, and it feels that nothing we have to say is even being heard.

 

[Leeann]

And that’s the whole problem in a nutshell. . .the idea that focusing on Jesus means that we focus on Him **alone **and that any other acknowledgment of any other person–be it Mary, St. Paul, St. Peter, etc. somehow ‘takes the focus away’ from Jesus.

But it is sadly true in some cases Tatum ergo - and that is what is wrong with the example set by the Pope in this particular prayer and in his actions of dedicating the world to Mary.

This is not a competition. Acknowledging the Virgin Mary as having a role beyond a “God used and then discarded her” (the role that most Protestants view her in even when they say they ‘call her blessed’) (This is sadly also true!) in that she did not ‘cease’ to be Christ’s mother (just as our own parents don’t suddenly stop being our parents when they die) and that she --the woman who was blessed enough to raise Him and be with Him for 30 years before His ministry, who stood with Him by the Cross, and was with the Apostles at Pentecost–is still pointing us to Him, doesn’t take the focus ‘away from Christ’ but in fact turns us even closer to Him.

We’re a family, we have Christ in each other, and we see Christ in each other, especially in the woman who bore Him and the men and women who knew Him in the flesh. In a way, we see Christ ‘more’ because we are seeing Him in many.

Thank you Tantum ergo for posting!

 

[guanophore]

I know what I can appreciate – the “gospel message” as taught and preached by Jesus and the Apostles!

I see that, and I commend you for that. You are clearly very passionate and committed in your faith. If you do have a genuine intellectual curiousity about the how and why of Marian devotions, the best way to understand it is a study of the early heresies. When the Church was required to develop doctrines about the nature of Christ, corollaries emerged about Mary.

Paul didn’t encourage intercession to those that were no longer living among us….he encouraged the believers to pray for one another and for him.

Yes, and the Apostles taught that not even death could separate us from Him, or from one another.

Hail Full of Grace??? - a title??

Absolutely! Don’t get thrown off by the prayer, it says “Hail Mary”. We do hail her, but the Angel hailed her by the tile “Full of Grace”.

There are many titles and greetings used for royalty. “Hail” was reserved for those of high standing. Everyone was required to greet the Emperor or his envoy with “Hail Ceasar”. The Governor was referred to as “Excellency” (see Acts. 25 & 26).

It takes no honor from Mary to focus on Jesus as He is NOW…alive and triumphant!
As a mother, imagine how honored that would make Mary feel !!!

I bet she is just fixin’ to bust!

God gave us His Son – so that we could focus on HIM!

Amen! I hope your loved ones can grasp this. :byzsoc:
Leeann;4405954:

My question is…why is the Pope standing at the foot of the cross weeping for our Lord, when he could be kneeling before Him at His throne of Grace?

Is it not a bit presumptuous for anyone to impose ones’ “shoulds” on how others ought to pray? Do you never pray standing up?

One of the great blessings we have in Mary as a model is how to be filled with God’s strength when standing at the foot of the cross. She remained there for three hours, weeping and praying while He poured out His blood for the life of the world. He continues to suffer, especially when His Body here on earth is broken and wounded. When we can stand with Him in His suffering, we join our sufferings with His, and make up what is lacking in His suffering.

You see……Jesus is *not on that *

cross anymore….He is not dead….He is living and sitting at the right hand of our Father in heaven….He is waiting and desiring that you and me and the Pope come to HIM…that’s why He suffered and hung on the cross and shed His blood for us…so that you and me and the Pope would have direct access in times of doubt, distress, fears, needs of any kind….He IS willing and able and fully ACCESSABLE to those who truly believe and have faith in HIM to do what He has promised to do.

Yes, of course. Yet his eternal sacrifice remains for us, covering us with His blood. We commemorate both His death and His resurrection. It is at the cross where we can join our sufferings with His. This is why Catholics have crucifixes, with the corpus. It is Christ crucified that is at the center of the Apostolic Gospel “a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.” 1 Cor 1:23-25

To focus on JESUS - as He was tempted by satan, as He faced persecution and hatred, as He overcame grief and sorrow when His friends let Him down, as He humbled Himself and allowed them to mock Him, scourge Him and nail Him to that cross, as He triumphantly rose and ascended into heaven where He now reigns as our HIGH PRIEST….will bring you closer to who He really IS

• than by meditating on Mary holding a baby in her arms or any of the saints that have gone before….simply because you will be “there”…in HIM…in HIS presence.

You are absolutely right. This describes the substance of the Sacrifice of the Mass, which is the source and summit of CAtholic prayer and worship. We do this daily. Meditating on the Blessed Mother and the saints that have gone before are also pious and helpful devotions, but nothing can replace the Mass. Do your friends who seem to idolize Mary go to Mass?

There should be no fear in approaching Him because we may not be “worthy” to do so – He loves us – He shed His blood for us – and as you stated – He already knows us better than we know ourselves – He knows the desires of our hearts and our true needs and our motives better than we do – and He is able and willing to answer us

– if we only believe this, ask HIM and accept with faith what His Will is to be in our lives and trust what the scriptures say:

Yes. Catholics do this in the manner in which Christ prescribed for us, in the Holy Eucharist. T’hat does not mean we do not also do so at other times, but this is the main focus for the Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

And that’s the whole problem in a nutshell. . .the idea that focusing on Jesus means that we focus on Him **alone **and that any other acknowledgment of any other person–be it Mary, St. Paul, St. Peter, etc. somehow ‘takes the focus away’ from Jesus.

This is not a competition. Acknowledging the Virgin Mary as having a role beyond a “God used and then discarded her” (the role that most Protestants view her in even when they say they ‘call her blessed’) in that she did not ‘cease’ to be Christ’s mother (just as our own parents don’t suddenly stop being our parents when they die) and that she --the woman who was blessed enough to raise Him and be with Him for 30 years before His ministry, who stood with Him by the Cross, and was with the Apostles at Pentecost–is still pointing us to Him, doesn’t take the focus ‘away from Christ’ but in fact turns us even closer to Him.

We’re a family, we have Christ in each other, and we see Christ in each other, especially in the woman who bore Him and the men and women who knew Him in the flesh. In a way, we see Christ ‘more’ because we are seeing Him in many.

I just realized that a major crux of this misunderstanding is how Catholics and Protestants think differently about worship and intercession. For Catholics, the center of prayer is Divine Liturgy. For a person who has never participated or understood the Divine Liturgy to see the pope making a public prayer like this, it would be easy to misunderstand the orienation in the heart of the person praying. An observer has no way of knowing or undersanding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, or the nature and focus of Catholic worship.

 

[Leeann]

Ashleybelle:

You miss a crucial part of our faith, though Christ is indeed risen! He is also present, among us. In the eucharist we do not “re-sacrifice” Christ, or “keep Him hanging” on the cross…

Catholics believe Christ’s sacrifice has NOT ended… His work on the cross, and His work of salvation in our lives is an ongoing process. He is truly present in the mass, when we partake of His body, blood and divinity. We are not just symbolizing what happened, we are actually PARTICIPATING in the work of our salvation

Why is it that Catholic churches all portray Christ on the cross, and protestant churches all portray an empty cross?

By portraying Jesus on the cross – the Catholic Church has indeed left Him there – you have stated how you picture yourself envision yourself at the foot of His cross, with Him looking down on you unable to reach out and comfort or embrace you……so you turn to Mary….whom the Catholic Church has embraced and taught is the one that you can go too for all your comfort, all your needs and who is able to assist in your salvation by “graces” that He sends through her. He is either still a baby in Mary’s arms and always will be…………or He is still hanging before your faces on the cross………

“With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

That is why I said:

“ Just don’t leave Him hanging there….He’s alive and well and desiring for you to come to HIM, humbly believing that He is able and willing to meet all your needs. “

Most protestant churches portray an empty cross – now – because He is alive and able and willing that all should come to Him.

Philippians 3:8-11 NASB

More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

 

[Leeann]

Will be gone all day…and will respond and catch up as soon as I can later on. Thanks for everyone who is posting.

God Bless!

 

[utunumsint]

That is why I said:

“ Just don’t leave Him hanging there….He’s alive and well and desiring for you to come to HIM, humbly believing that He is able and willing to meet all your needs. “

Most protestant churches portray an empty cross – now – because He is alive and able and willing that all should come to Him.

Quick question Leanne: why is it that after the resurrection, Christ’s wounds on his hands and his side remained? Why didn’t they dissapear? And why was the lamb in revelation like one who was slain but was still alive? Why did God allows the marks of his crucifixion to remain in his flesh?

God bless,
Ut

 

[guanophore]

Apparently not the “gospel message” that Jesus and the Apostles preached and taught for the salvation of all mankind……as they never say ……”you must believe on Mary, that she was a virgin, that she was born sinless, lived sinless all her life, died (or maybe not) and was assumed into heaven and in order to obtain salvation……” – do they?

You are right., the Apostles did not use the Readers’ Digest version of Christianity that is the hallmark of modern American Fundamentalism. Here is a rendition of how they thought about the gospel:

Acts 1:1-3
In the first book, Theophilus, I wrote about **all **that Jesus did and taught from the beginning 2 until the day when he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

The Apostolic Gospel contains “all that Jesus began to do and to teach”, and the instructions given to the apostles “teaching them to do all that I have commanded”. It did not start getting parted and parceled out until the Reformers decided things needed excising.

Mary has always been part of the “all”.

They didn’t – it is recorded that Jesus turned Mary over into John’s care and vice versa.

Actually, that is not what is recorded. What is recorded is that Mary was standing there “with the disciple that Jesus loved”. He is no where identified as John. This is why we can all place ourselves at the foot of His cross with Mary, and receiver her from Him as a gift.

Mary was his mother. He loved her.

It is good you can see this. A lot of people who are scandalized by Marian devotion lose sight of this simple fact.

Interestingly enough, Mary was not present when Jesus ascended into heaven.
That was a pretty big event to be left out of.

We don’t know that. She is not recorded, as most were not. I often wonder how often He visited her.

However, all of what you’ve posted above – will not bring about a person’s salvation……the ONLY part that does that and can stand on its “own”……is the “gospel message” that the Apostles were commissioned by Jesus to go and **preach and teach **– that being about HIS shed blood for the remission of sins for all mankind.

While I agree that this is the core of the gospel, this is not, by far, all they taught. “They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” Acts 2:41-42

These were people who accepted the Readers’ Digest version of the gospel you are promoting. If that was all there was to it, why would they need to devote themselves to Apostolic teaching, fellowship, breaking of the bread, and prayers? It seems, for some reason, it is important for you to separate training in discipleship from the “gospel”. ??

 Oh yes....I've heard that expression before, and fully understand what it is meant to mean.

.

No, I don’t think so.

When* I* say the “gospel message” as preached and taught by Jesus and the Apostles it is the “gospel message” that THEY deemed important, because it had all the information “necessary” for the salvation of all mankind. THAT is the “gospel message” that they warn us to hold fast too and to not accept any other.

I agree. That gospel message is contained in the NT, which includes Mary. It is also contained in the Apostles’ teaching that is not in the NT, the prayers, liturgies, and way of life taught by the Apostles.

And anything that isn’t written can be developed and added on later?

That is probably a topic for another thread. However, not “anything”. The only things that can be developled are doctrines for which it is deemed necessary by the HS for the safety of the Church. Examples of this would be the hypostatic union, the concept of the Trinity, and the table of contents for the Bible. These doctrines were developed to fight heresies that could have destroyed the Church.

 

[guanophore]

That’s right…they didn’t….and as you can see they never once pointed the early believers to go to Mary (while living/or after) or to other believers that had died for intercessory prayer…they always pointed them to Jesus/God.

Yes. They point, she points, they all point to God. Mary’s special role of pointing to God is manifest at the wedding in Cana. She pursuades Him to reveal Himself in public for the first time. At her request, "Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother, his brothers, and his disciples; and they remained there a few days. John 2:11-12

Where Mary points, faith results.

As for Mary being part of the “gospel message” that the Apostles preached and that is recorded in scripture – the “gospel message” pertaining to the salvation of all mankind – believing in Jesus and His blood sacrifice and resurrection……Mary’s name or the necessity of believing in her, is never mentioned.

Well, we read it differently.

Catholics believe that there is nothing in the NT that is not part of the Gospel message preached by the Apostles. We believe that Mary is included because she is part of the message.

Yes…but not the “gospel message” that the Apostles taught and preached as necessary for the salvation of all mankind.

I understand that you are using the Readers Digest version that emanates from modern American Fundamentalism, though, about how to “get saved”. For us, this constitutes a different gospel, since it is not what we received from the Apostles.

I understand that you are using the Readers Digest version that emanates from modern American Fundamentalism, though, about how to “get saved”. It is a different gospel to us.

Try using the Holy Spirit the next time you read them.

You seem to be suggesting that the HS is separated form the Apostolic Succession which He has formed, preserved, protected and guided.

Did you not read the letter from James in the book of Acts? Does the HS seem separated from the Apostles in that account?
Leeann;4406588:

Now I’m not being sarcastic here guanophore, (I’m just tired of using that little green guy)

I am glad you warned me, since the two statements before this one sure did seem sarcastic to me.

just stating it as it is, I guess Jesus didn’t mention that to the Apostles- as they forgot to mention that when they were preaching and teaching His gospel message…although they refer to themselves as examples in the Christian walk and to O.T. patriarchs and even to Jesus as an example…and the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire them to make any significant references suggesting that Mary should be used as an example of what He wants to do in all our lives – which was pretty important information to be left out for all those very, early first Christians….not to mention those that Jesus prayed for himself…to all those who would believe on their words.

Catholics believe that there is nothing in the NT that was not taught and preached by the Apostles. We do not see Mary left out of the NT. On the contrary, we find much important information about her there. However, I do agree that her greater role in the church did not become apparent to us for a couple hundred years, just as the need for doctrinal development did not, or the formation of the canon. Some growth of the seed just takes more time.

Jesus was clear that this would happen.

 

[guanophore]

guanophore – what things do I keep asserting that the Apostles did not teach that you believe are in the N.T.?

YOu keep saying that the Apostles did not teach that Mary was a part of the gospel.

Yes.
But my quote above is in response to a statement made by you with regards to Christ’s birth and Mary’s role in it.
Luke gives more detailed information – Matthew “mentions it” – Mark and John bypass it “Christ’s birth” and any mention of Mary’s role in it all together.

I am mystified about why you find it necessary to excuse “bypassing” Mary as part of the good news of Jesus Christ. I agree that the gospels of Mark and John do not include the birth stories. To Catholics, this does not equate to “she was never part of the gospel message”.

First of all – what is my quote above in reference or response too??Thanks – then I can get back to it.

It seems like you are trying to make reference to a 19th century modern american gospel that does not include Mary. You seem to wish to see sermons about her coming from the lips of Jesus an the Apostles in order to be pursuaded that she is part of the gospel message. Since you do not see these, she has no place in them.

With regards to your last sentence above – the epistles and the gospel books do contain “all that is necessary” for a person’s salvation, if that is what you mean by “christian faith” – I guess we disagree…again.

Indeed, such a concept is foreign to the Apostolic Teaching.

Sorry….I disagree again….”Christians” have been “made” without the aid of the Catholic Church and by the Grace of God and by His authority and His power, this will continue to happen.

Well, we see it differently.

Catholics believe that “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.” Eph 4:4-6

Therefore, all who are joined to Christ are members of His One Body, the Church.

I suppose it’s the “degree” or to “what level” it has reached, what is the first thing people see when they look at the Catholic Church….or in keeping with this thread……turn too….or point too……Mary……or Jesus._

I think that depends a lot upon their own experiences and background. Clearly, what you have seen is “window dressing” which you have mistaken for the core beliefs of the faith. Marian devotion, as beneficial as it may be, does not represent the core of Catholicism. However, I would venture to guess that you have never attended a Divine Liturgy, so you could not possibly know what you are missing.

 

[guanophore]

and that is what is wrong with the example set by the Pope in this particular prayer and in his actions of dedicating the world to Mary.

It is interesting that you feel compelled and qualified to judge the pope.

I think if you are really interested in making a right judgement on his prayer life,then it would behoove you to examine the whole of it. Start with the Mass, the prayer He prays daily, and go from there. Maybe you can find something “wrong” with what Jesus left to us in that also?

 

[guanophore]

By portraying Jesus on the cross – the Catholic Church has indeed left Him there –

I can see how someone standing outside understanding the teaching and worship of the Church could think this. One has to wonder where these ideas originate…

you have stated how you picture yourself envision yourself at the foot of His cross, with Him looking down on you unable to reach out and comfort or embrace you……so you turn to Mary….whom the Catholic Church has embraced and taught is the one that you can go too for all your comfort, all your needs and who is able to assist in your salvation by “graces” that He sends through her. He is either still a baby in Mary’s arms and always will be…………or He is still hanging before your faces on the cross………

Wow. you seem very passionate and disturbed by these perceptions.

That is why I said:

“ Just don’t leave Him hanging there….He’s alive and well and desiring for you to come to HIM, humbly believing that He is able and willing to meet all your needs. “

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

Most protestant churches portray an empty cross – now – because He is alive and able and willing that all should come to Him.

Is that right? I thought they were bothered by the image of the crucified Lord. I know I am.

Philippians 3:8-11 NASB

"… that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

[/INDENT]

How did you expect to become conformed to His death without the cross, and suffering?

Will be gone all day…and will respond and catch up as soon as I can later on. Thanks for everyone who is posting.

God Bless!

As will I, and I apologize for filling the whole page with posts.

May God bless our Veterans, the quick and the dead,honor them for their sacrifices for our freedom, keep them safe, and bring them home both to us, an to His heavenly kingdom. In Jesus name, Amen.

 

[ron77nyc]

If you feel this way, then I strongly urge you not to use this prayer in public. You might also wish to write the pope, and reprimand him.

I already tried getting him on the phone but the number has been disconnected…et-cum-spiri-2-2-0

I know if I sit down with him and have a talk we could straighten this whole thing out.:yup:

 

[onenow1]

HI, Leeann

Colossians 3​

12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, and patience,
13 forbearing one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teach and admonish one another in all wisdom, and sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks

I was wondering what your take on VS. 17 would be ?

Peace, onenow1

 

[justasking4]

If you feel this way, then I strongly urge you not to use this prayer in public. You might also wish to write the pope, and reprimand him.

Would you reprimand him for saying this prayer?

 

[ron77nyc]

John Paul II was cautioned by Cardinal Ratzinger in 1997.
See page 2 in this link by the National Catholic Reporter.
"This proposed dogma is unique in that it clearly does not enjoy the full support of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith or its prefect, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who cautioned the Holy Father over a year ago not to push the teachings."

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_n34_v33/ai_19633321/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

Pope may declare Mary ‘coredemptrix.’ - Pope John Paul II: but many argue against a co-redeemer concept - Cover Story

Tim Unsworth
At 77 and in uneven health, John Paul II invests virtually every allocution with some mention of his advancing years and of his devotion to Mary, the mother of Jesus. Before he dies, he may decide to use his charism of infallibility to elevate Mary’s crown another tier.

Reports from Rome, the U.S. Catholic press and even Time magazine suggest the pope will cap his career by infallibly declaring Mary Coredemptrix of Humanity, Mediatrix of All Graces and Advocate for the People of God. Such a move would be the first time since 1950, when the doctrine of the Assumption was promulgated, that a pope has exercised his power of infallibility. It would bring to five the number of Marian definitions since she was declared the Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

Her perpetual virginity was declared at the third Council of Constantinople 250 years later, in 681. In 1854, the Church defined the Immaculate Conception.

The proposed new teaching is certain to raise theological eyebrows. Pius IX had written to and received approval from his fellow bishops before declaring the Immaculate Conception to be an article of faith. Pius XII did the same nearly a century later. A unilateral declaration of Mary as coredemptrix would likely be received with anger, even by bishops prepared to support the pope.

Popes have shunned coredemptrix talk for over 50 years. Prior to this, a mixture of devotion and hyperbole combined to bring coredemtrix and its synonyms into the language. Writers such as Alphonsus Liguori and Louis de Montfort and popes from Leo XIII (1878-1903) through Pius XI (1922-1939) used the term freely. Leo devoted 11 of his 60 encyclicals to Mary, but no pope took the definition beyond an accommodated sense.

Vatican II pretty much decided not to give Mary any more titles. To declare a Marian dogma now would not only reintroduce the still controversial issue of papal infallibility but also raise ecumenical difficulties. According to Time magazine’s religion writer Richard N. Ostling, “Protestants and the Orthodox would go into orbit, feeling Christ has been demeaned as the unique Savior” (Time, June 16).

Ironically, because a “coredeemer” would by definition be a priest, the proposed dogma could bring aid and comfort to the growing number of those who support the ordination of women.

“No way,” several priests said over a luncheon recently. “No way. The pope can only define what the church already believes. And this notion has been rejected over and over again. He just can’t do it.”

Yet, some Vatican watchers suggest that such cautions will not likely deter John Paul II. Mark L. Miravalle, professor of Marian Theology at Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio, has edited a book of essays, Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate. Theological Foundation II: Papal, Pneumatological, Ecumenical (Queenship Publishing, Santa Barbara, Calif. 1996). According to Miravalle, the date has been set: John Paul II will promulgate the dogma on May 31, 1998, the feast of Pentacost and previously the liturgical feast of Mediatrix of All Graces, granted by Benedict XV.

NCR attempted to reach Dr. Miravalle at Franciscan University but was informed that he was out of the country. Allegedly, he has met privately at least twice with John Paul II.

Talk of “Mary, coredemptrix,” has faded dramatically since Vatican II, largely because of the pastoral and ecumenical difficulties it raises. Its history dates to the patristic era when Mary, by her consent at the Annunciation and her actual maternity, brought redemption into the world.

Early medieval teaching has Mary offering Christ in the sacrifice of the cross. Jesus’ wounds are suffered in Mary’s heart. Thus, she actively shares in the redemptive work of her son.

Later medieval thought places Mary in heaven, distributing the fruits of Christ’s redemption to unworthy sinner. (In Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel ceiling, we find Mary, standing under Christ’s threatening raised right arm, pleading on behalf of other mortals.)

Such dramatic visions can lead to misunderstandings. They can reduce Christ to one half of a team of redeemers.

In practice, when the teaching was more popular, it often lent the impression that a vengeful Jesus – arm upraised to strike as in Michelangelo’s painting – is holding back only because of Mary’s intercession. However, Benedictine theologian Martin John Horak reminds us that official teaching holds that Christ alone, God and man, is redeemer in the full, proper and absolute sense of the term.

A more cautious and contemporary view considers coredemption not an intrinsic participation in the redemptive work of Christ but an acceptance of it. According to Fr. Horak, “By her ‘fiat’ to the Incarnation and Passion, Mary accepts Christ’s redemption.”

Vatican II gently closed the door to further promotion of the teaching. Lumen Gentium devoted a paragraph that said, in part, “By her maternal charity, Mary cares for the brethren of her Son who still journey on earth surround by dangers and difficulties. … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. These, however, are to be so understood that they neither take away from nor add anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.”

 

[Leeann]

HI, Leeann

Colossians 3​

12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, and patience,
13 forbearing one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teach and admonish one another in all wisdom, and sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks

I was wondering what your take on VS. 17 would be ?

That’s the *best *name to do anything in…including prayer.

Peace, onenow1

 

[fbl9]

Most protestant churches portray an empty cross – now – because He is alive and able and willing that all should come to Him.

an empty cross is just that,empty…without Christ the cross has no meaning…

 

[Leeann]

Leeann

Most protestant churches portray an empty cross – now – because He is alive and able and willing that all should come to Him.

fb19:
an empty cross is just that,empty…without Christ the cross has no meaning…

Oh but it does !

Col 3:

1 Therefore, if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above; where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God: 2 Mind the things that are above, not the things that are upon the earth.

and again:

Hebrews 4:

14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin. 16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid.