Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
But it wasn’t given……it was “developed”.

guanophore:
How does “development” make it any less “given”? How is the canon, developing over the course of 4 centuries, make it any less of God? How is the concept of the Trinity, and the hypostatic union developing well after the Apostles make it any less “given” by God?

Anything that is developed to the point of having the Pope turn to Mary – instead of directly to Jesus/God in supplication and prayer can’t be given by God.

guanophore:
Jesus was clear that everything would not be immediately understood, and it would take time.

He was also clear, as were the Apostles, that there would be many false teachers and that HE was the one to turn too, to go too, to believe in and have faith in.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Well – some other versions of the Catholic Bible express it differently – New Jerusalem : 28 He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’ And New American Standard , 28And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

guanophore:
Do you find these not “titles”?

No.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
As stated – Mary already had the ‘cards stacked in her favour’ (pardon the pun), and Zacharias didn’t.

guanophore:
I think I disagree with this, but since it is off topic, I am not going to ask about it.

Yes….we mustn’t stray off topic!

guanophore:
Suffice to say that I believe, where God guides, He provides. God did not ask anything of 'ol Zach that He was not willing to enable Him to do.

Yes, well Zacharias didn’t have much to “say” about the matter, did he?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Oh yes, of course – Mary is always just that much a little “ahead” and “before” God….isn’t she?

guanophore:
You have gone many days without any sarcastic remarks, and I commend you for that. It looks like this one just slipped.

Yeah….well some people use sarcasm….others just use those little “green” sickly smiley faces…or the “thumbs up!” one.

guanophore:
John the Baptis was ahead and before Jesus too. It does not take away from Jesus.

You’re right!
The Catholic church hasn’t done to John the Baptist, what it has to Mary, elevating her status to such a proportion that now the Pope doesn’t know who to turn too!

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Perhaps the Pope would be best to stick to what “looks” commendable then, especially being the position he is.

There’s no difference……only from the Catholic Church’s perspective.

mercygate:
There are significant ontological differences between a Church and a denomination beginning with Apostolic Sucession. Denominationalism derives from the essential schismatic attitude of all Protestantism and represents a denial of the Body of Christ as instituted by Our Lord.

As I said….there’s no difference….only from the Catholic Church’s perspective.

 

[Leeann]

ron77nyc:
She is making a good point and even if you or anyone else on this thread thinks she is right you won’t admit it because that would mean you are unfaithful to the Pope and the Church and the Vatican. The original question is “To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?” The Church has one perfect savior. Why create another one ? Co-redeemer, mediatrix and advocate are confusing terms. Jesus is redeemer and mediator and the Holy Spirit is the Advocate.

AMEN!

 

[Leeann]

Topic:

Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

 

[davidv]

Topic:

Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

Both.

 

[mercygate]

As I said….there’s no difference….only from the Catholic Church’s perspective.

Leeann, there ARE differences between the definitions of Church and denomination, and they have little to do with whether the perspective is Catholic or Protestant. We define a Church as possessing certain attributes, which are not found in Protestant denominations.

Since the Apostolic Churches were in business and functioning out of the understanding given to them in the Upper Room on Easter night and affirmed at Pentecost – an understanding that remained unchallenged for 1500 years – one must at least recognize that changing the definition of “church” is an idea that arose from outside the Church. To reduce the idea of “true particular Church” to parity with a denomination misses the critical point of what a Church is.

This points back to the topic of this thread, which is not in its essence about “praying to Mary” but the nature of the Communion of Saints. Nobody in the Catholic Church is praying to Mary instead of Jesus (unless they are woefully mistaken). Nobody points to Mary instead of Jesus.

Again, you would be very hard pressed to find anybody in the entire Christian world who has a higher or more profound Christology than Joseph Ratzinger.

 

[guanophore]

You didn’t answer the question guanophore.
Where is Mary preached or taught about in the “gospel message” by Jesus or the Apostles?

I did answer you, Leeann. But, as you are prone to point out, you did not like my answer. I responded that Catholics do not distill the 'gospel" to the readers digest version.

Matt 28:17-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20** and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you**. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

We believe that the kerygma contains “everything” that Jesus has commanded. We don’t believe that the HS allowed spurious and unrelated matter in the Holy Writings. Since Mary is there,then we believe she is part of the gospel message.

Are you objecting that her name is not mentioned in the 20th century invention of “the sinners prayer”?

Oh – but can you not quote some scripture verses – as you’ve done before on other things – any at all – with Jesus or the Apostles actually teaching and preaching about Mary with regards to the above about Mary ….it would be very helpful. Are they there?

I think you want to hear the words coming out of Pauls mouth (or pen) somewhere in his letters. Apparently you are presupposing that the pure ‘gospel’ is not valid unless it is in this form. Catholics believe that the whole of the NT represents the Kerygma of the Apostles. The fact that Mary is found throughout demonstrates to us that she is part and parcel of the gospel message. You seem to have a need to separate and distill out of that message, presumabely because you are scandalized by some Marian centered practices that you have witnessed.

Their teachings are not “reflected” – they are there.

I will concede that everything present in the NT represents the Teachings of the Apostles. However, the notion that they are all contained therein is false, and there are passages that are very obscure.

I will ask you again. Why do you think there are any references to Mary in the NT?

But Mary isn’t left out.

Why not? You seem to think that, if her name is not found on the lips of Peter during the Pentecost sermon, that she is not part of the story!
Leeann;4400675:

Mary’s role is recorded with the significance it deserves…just as Jesus’ role is recorded and focused on, with the significance it deserves, because it is to be all about HIM.

I agree that the gospel message is Christ centered. However, it is not “all about HIm”. He came and died for us, so that we could be with HIm in eternity. It is about what he has done for us. He partook of human nature so that we can become partakers of God’s nature.

No – I keep quoting that because it distinguishes how “HIS OWN immutable glory” is separate from Mary and everything/everyone – those verses clearly define that distinction.

.

Ok, that makes sense. It is this immuntable glory into which His grace brings us. Mary is the first and best example of our participation in His Divine Glory. She embodies the Theosis to which all of us are called. God chose not to dwell alone in HIs glory, and created us to have fellowship with HIm.

I said that Jesus and the Apostles never preached or taught about Mary in their “gospel message” of salvation for all mankind. The Apostles write about Mary and give the proper significance to the role she played in the salvation history – nothing more.

What is written is a distillation of what was preached. If you think these things got into Scripture without them ever being taught then you are in error.

God did exalt Mary and she was faithful and obedient.
The Catholic Church has developed a whole theology around her and by doing so, has attempted to exalt her above and beyond what God had intended for her.

I understand why it seems that way to you.

The Holy Spirit always points to Christ/God – first/foremost – never to anyone or anything else.

I agree, but the HS uses other people/things to point, and Mary is a good pointer. The HS can even speak through the mouth of a donkey!

 You make me smile guanophore :)

I also want the mp3’s from the 40 days of Christ after the resurrection. If you see them on ebay, let me know!

 

[guanophore]

And what would be the significance of this with regards to what we were discussing?

Luke carefully crafted the first two chapters around the events of Christ’s birth. He states and the outset that he is recording what the Church taught. If this information was not part of what the Apostles taught, why did he put it in there?

Oh! So Mary is just like all the other older normal women and that is how you are to accept her…with the same honor and respect you would give any other older woman/man/sister…just as the Apostles accepted them.

I would say that Mary is not “just like” any woman, due to her unique role in the plan of God. But, I would say that we are to have familial relationships with the beloved. Some people seem so scandalized that Catholics think about Mary as a mother, but this is perfectly scriptural. Would it be so awful to treat all the elder women in our faith as though they were the mother of the Lord?

If more of us were mindful of the teaching “whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren,that you do unto me” I suspect that our families would be a lot healthier, as would society as a whole.

Perhaps the Pope would be best to stick to what “looks” commendable then, especially being the position he is.

Indeed, it would sure make our lives a lot easier around here! I can see why Jesus said to go into the closet and pray. He must have known how much objection there would be to public prayers.

There’s no difference……only from the Catholic Church’s perspective.

Actually, this is not the case. There is a difference from the point of view of all the Churches founded by Apostles, including those not in union with Rome. You will find this distinction in Holy Orthodoxy, and in the Oriental Churches also.
Leeann;4401655:

It’s not what the Catholic Church does for

Mary……as to what the Catholic Church has done to Mary.

It is God who has elevated Mary. We just accept what He did.

The humble, faithful, obedient hand maiden of God, whose heart was pierced when she witnessed her son crucified, now also witnesses glory and honor being pointed towards her, instead of towards her son, her Savior…our Savior.

I am sure if she witnessed such a sin, those people are in her prayers. Just as then angels who corrected people that fell before them, seeing the glory of God reflected through them, she will tell them to stand up, and “do whatever He tells you”. This misplaced devotion is nothing new. Remember, even when Jesus was still on earth it was said. " While he was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it!” Luke 11:27-28

The blessing she had because of her obedience to Him is available to us all.

 

[onenow1]

I do not see that the Angel ASKED for Mary’s consent. However, she certainly did GIVE her consent. Fiat! Fiat! Fiat!

Quote=onenow1, Your very answer Leeann appears to me, that you are acting as your own, so to speak pope, little ‘p’.].

So the question is did she give her consent or not ? And why was there a need for consent, if the angel was not laying out an implied Question?

Analogy] God gave Adam His plan for the human race in the beginning, this was God’s will, that Adam not eat the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden did he not?
Does not God give Adam an implied choice? Could this be where God relates to us that we have free wiill and then warns of the consequences of our choices death ?

In the same way, its a pretty fair bet that Mary,being a good Jewish girl, knew the story of Adam and its consequences.

And so to with Zechariah, he certainly was aware of the story of Abraham and Sarah.

The Apostles I believe would have, without a doubt referred to O.T. scripture to do a lot of splaining about Mary’s realationship with Jesus wouldn’t you say ?

So the answer remains yes the Apostles woud have pointed to Mary as one interssor,just as we intercede for one another.

Heres a Quote from Mother Teresa of Calcutta : Jesus has chosen us for Himself; we belong to him.
Let us be so convinced of this belonging that we do not allow anything however small, to seperate us from from this belonging–from this Love . She almost always had a rosary with her.

Peace,onenow1

 

[guanophore]

I don’t get the feeling that that was sincere. Leeann is not seeking peace.

I disagree, ron. I think that my initial perceptions of Leeann were not accruate. I do not believe that she has just come here to stir up contention. I believe that she is genuinely distressed about some people for whom she cares that appear to have lost focus on Christ.

She is making a good point and even if you or anyone else on this thread thinks she is right you won’t admit it because that would mean you are unfaithful to the Pope and the Church and the Vatican. The original question is “To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?”

All of the Apostles, the saints, and especially Mary always and everywhere point only to Christ. We do not see asking for their intercession a distraction from Christ. Leeann has witnessed something that appears to be a form of idolatry.

The Church has one perfect savior. Why create another one ? Co-redeemer, mediatrix and advocate are confusing terms. Jesus is redeemer and mediator and the Holy Spirit is the Advocate.

Jesus, as our only perfect saviour, is generous, and allows us to participate in His saving work. Mary was the very first to have this privilege, followed by John the Baptist. All those who participate in His saving plan point to Him.This is God’s desire for all of us.

Here’s the subject: Why is the Pope praying to the Blessed Mother and not the Father? The Vicar of Christ is not praying as Jesus taught.

Such a question betrays a misunderstanding about intercession. When we intercede for one another, we don’t do it “and not” pray to the father.

It also seems like quite a judgemental and narrow minded statement to make. You are condemning the Pope because “he isn ot praying as Jesus taught”. On the contrary, I am quite certain that he has prayed as Jesus taught more than all of us put together. You are putting down a man who hase given His whole life to God in prayer and service. He has been praying as Jesus taught longer than most of us have been alive. To see this small prayer, quoted from someone else, and judge his whole prayer life according to it to me seems like an act of serious bigotry. In God’s name may you be delivered from any such thing every happening to you!

One has to wonder, given the gross faithlessness of some of our popes, why anyone would complain that one is fervent in prayer!

If the Blessed Mother leads people to Her Son why aren’t the Hindus and Muslims getting the message? They have a pious devotion but still reject God’s plan of salvation.

Are you now going to criticize the Hindus adn the Muslims because they are slow to hear the gospel? Would your energies not be better spent praying for them?

**Here is the subject in discussion and the conflict. It seems as if the Pope is depending more on the Blessed Mother than Our Father who art in heaven. **

Has it occurred t you that you may be creating a conflict where one does not, in fact, exist, and that what “seems” to you like the case may not, in fact, be the case?

It is like you are condemning souls because a prayer sounds awkward to you.
mercygate;4402800:

If you think Pope Benedict does NOT pray to the Father, then you don’t know anything about his prayer habits!

I don’t think that ron77 is really interested in the Pope’s prayer life at all. I think he just wants to find fault with the prayer life of another, so as to detract from the Catholic Church.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Good morning Leeann

I wanted you to know, that I really am praying for you. Not that you’ll become Catholic or that you’ll stop believing in Jesus with the passion you’ve demonstrated…but that you might find a peace with your friends and their devotion to the blessed mother I really am, and will continue to do so, and I think there are others here who are doing the same! God bless you for coming to these forums… I can speak from experience when I say that they truly helped me at one point, to find peace about my own questions.

 You commented a moment ago that the Catholic Church doesn't revere John the Baptist the way we do Mary.... And you would be partly right. Mary holds a special position because of the significance of everything God did for her. John the Baptist, is also a part of the communion of saints, however. We may, and do, pray for his intercession just as we may pray for Peter, Paul, St. Joseph and all the others to pray for us:)  This however would get into the subject of the communion of saints, and I really think if you'd like to learn about it, is very worthy of its own thread.

That aside... I had a thought this morning I would like to share with you.

I have been trying to make more time to pray the rosary, and though I don’t always get to as much as I’d like… I do still think about the prayers through the busy day. When somebody prays a rosary, you hear the hail mary’s, our father’s, glory be’s…but what you don’t hear is the meditation of the rosary. The meditations are centered on the life of Christ, and it is the greatest, most powerful prayers because it puts you right THERE with our Lord! When I first began praying the rosary, I had an experience that I can credit to none other than the Holy Spirit working through this amazing prayer. I was meditating on the joyful mysteries, and had just started the nativity. As I prayed to Mary, and focused on the Child Christ in her arms… I was moved beyond words! Right there in the pew, it was as if God had made this scene more real than anything else around me. I felt that I could literally reach out and stroke the baby’s cheek. And as I concentrated on all of this, one other thing stood out so clearly to me. I looked at Mary…and there I saw her full of love, pride, awe, wonder and amazement! I will never get that scene out of my mind…God’s son, cradled in the arms of our mother.

Remembering the rosary, got me to thinking about the sorrowful mysteries.  I always have such a hard time praying these...because it brings me to tears to meditate on the passion of our Lord. I've been guilty of avoiding these mysteries, because I can't bear to truly meditate on the reality of His pain, suffering, and death.  Then I realized something.... Jesus gave us His mother, so that we could focus on Him!

I would like to share a story with you…

Imagine yourself, at the foot of the cross. There is our Lord, broken, beaten, pouring out His blood for us! You are overwhelmed with love and you just want to reach out to Him! To take Him down from the cross, heal His wounds and comfort Him!  But you can't.. you are powerless.. You stand amid the crowd, and reach out your arms.. But Jesus can't reach back. All He can do is gaze at you, with His beautiful, loving eyes.  What do you do? You could fall down and weep!  And then...while you are kneeling, weeping...you feel a hand on your shoulder. Is it Jesus?  You turn.. And there, is Mary.  She puts her arms around you, and you weep together!  She holds your hand at the foot of the cross while you stand together at your savior's feet.  The woman who cradled Him as a child, raised Him with love, and the woman who stood by Him even to His death... She now holds you in her arms and points you to Her son.

And then…as the two of you gaze up at our Lord, he looks at you once more, His eyes still full of love. He utters to Mary “Behold, your son.” And then to you, as you continue to weep while Mary hold’s your hand… “Behold, your mother.”

This is why Mary is so imortant to us! She was a part of the “gospel message” that Christ came to give us… She is there throughout the Bible, obeying God, teaching us to obey her son, and sharing the love of her son with all of us. Why did God choose to give us Mary? Why is she even in the Bible? He could have given us Jesus, already a man, and skipped the whole virgin birth. But He chose her for a reason! God knows our hearts even better than we know our own…and he gave us Mary, so that we could focus on Christ

So… if the pope was standing at the foot of the cross, weeping for our Lord… Who would he turn to for comfort? Who would put her arms around him and point to her son as they weep together? Mary.

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic Church has developed and promulgated a theology around Mary

Actually, this is not true. The theology that was developed was around Christ. The Marion doctrines were corollaries. If you ever studied any logic or geometry, you will know that you cannot have a corollary without a principle “proof”. All the doctrines of Mary emanate from Christocentric theology. I don’t think one who has not studied the early heresies can appreciate this.

and has incorporated this theology into the “gospel message” that was preached and taught by Jesus and the Apostles,

Jesus incorporated Mary into His plan of salvation. The Apostles and writers of the NT (as well as the early church fathers) incorporated her role into their writings. What the Church does not do (that our separated brethren tend to do ) is separate them out, or reduce the “gospel” to a readers digest version like the sinners prayer.

to the point where the Pope is directing his prayer…to/through Mary……instead of to Jesus/God as the Apostles taught and as Jesus himself taught.

This is a misunderstanding of intercessory prayer. When we ask for intercession, all of our prayers are directed to God. There is no “instead of”.

Anything that is developed to the point of having the Pope turn to Mary – instead of directly to Jesus/God in supplication and prayer can’t be given by God.

I agree. Mary I am sure is scandalized by such a thing.

He was also clear, as were the Apostles, that there would be many false teachers and that HE was the one to turn too, to go too, to believe in and have faith in.

You seem to be assuming that asking for the prayers of those whose lives are given over in service to Him would somehow subtract from this. Why do you suppose that Paul encouraged intercession, if he thought it took away from Christ?

]No.

REally?! If I came up to you, and greeted you “Hail Full of Grace”, or even “Hail, Oh Highly Favored One” you would not consider that a title used in a greeting? I did not say “Hail Leeann”, but Hail Katachetarmine".

If this is not a title, what is it?

Yes, well Zacharias didn’t have much to “say” about the matter, did he?

Certainly not after he came out!

Yeah….well some people use sarcasm….others just use those little “green” sickly smiley faces...or the "thumbs up!" one.  :rolleyes:

You’re right!
The Catholic church hasn’t done to John the Baptist, what it has to Mary, elevating her status to such a proportion that now the Pope doesn’t know who to turn too!

You are underestimating the veneration of the Baptist, possibly because our prayers to him did not make the news? It is God that has elevated Mary. We just recognize and cooperate with what He has done.

I think you are misjudging the Pope. I can see why the prayer, heard in a vaccuum, would bother you . But before you judge His beliefs and His prayer life, look at the whole. I think you will find that he is a Christ centered man.

Perhaps you are scandalized because you think this prayer contributes to the misplaced devotion of your loved ones, and maybe it does. I agree that some people get lost in their “devotions” and lose focus. Out here, where I live, the cult of the “penitentes” is popular. These are apparently well meaning Christians who go (in my opinion) overboard. Every year one or two of them has himself nailed to a cross. They crawl through the streets on their knees, whipping themselves and drawing blood. I understand that they mean to join themselves with the sufferings of Christ, but I don’t think thati s what He meant when He spoke of picking up our own cross and carrying it.

 

[ron77nyc]

If you think Pope Benedict does NOT pray to the Father, then you don’t know anything about his prayer habits!

This prayer is very reminiscent of the old testament prophets crying out to God the Father. To apply it to other than God in a public setting as the Vicar of Christ is just wrong and misleading. It’s idolatry.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

 

[mercygate]

This prayer is very reminiscent of the old testament prophets crying out to God the Father. To apply it to other than God in a public setting as the Vicar of Christ is just wrong and misleading. It’s idolatry.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

To accuse the Pontiff of idolatry demonstrates almost culpable ignorance of his work. But then, his writing has largely been for the academic world and not visible to the general public. Nevertheless, a large selection of his writings is available from Ignatius Press.

 

[ron77nyc]

QUOTE=guanophore;4403147]I disagree, ron. I think that my initial perceptions of Leeann were not accruate. I do not believe that she has just come here to stir up contention. I believe that she is genuinely distressed about some people for whom she cares that appear to have lost focus on Christ.

I agree with Leeann. I thought AshleyBelle was being sarcastic with her. I may have been wrong so I apologize to Ashley.

All of the Apostles, the saints, and especially Mary always and everywhere point only to Christ. We do not see asking for their intercession a distraction from Christ. Leeann has witnessed something that appears to be a form of idolatry.

It appears that way to me also.

Are you now going to criticize the Hindus adn the Muslims because they are slow to hear the gospel? Would your energies not be better spent praying for them?

I’m not criticizing them. God will judge everyone as He sees fit including me. I’m just saying if faith in Mary leads to faith in Jesus then why are they not Christians?

Has it occurred t you that you may be creating a conflict where one does not, in fact, exist, and that what “seems” to you like the case may not, in fact, be the case?

It is like you are condemning souls because a prayer sounds awkward to you.

I don’t think that ron77 is really interested in the Pope’s prayer life at all. I think he just wants to find fault with the prayer life of another, so as to detract from the Catholic Church.

I’m not here to create conflict. I’m sure the Pope prays to God the Father also and knows much more than I do about the bible, tradition, church history, faith and whatever else you want to include but in a public setting he is giving a confusing message.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Topic:

Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

davidv

Both.

Where in the NT do we see the apostles ever asking help from Mary? Where do we see them exhorting Christians to pray to her for help?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4402891]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Proof is needed for her immaculate conception, assumption and her intercessory powers for starters. Can you provide?

guanophore
Why do you feel a need for “proof”, ja4?

Proof is needed for the truth and it is a defense against false teachings.

What would happen if you just made a decision to reliquish your bigotry, and choose tolerance. You could say to yourself “Self, today, we will choose to believe that others see things differently, and that this is ok. It does not have to wreck my life because others have different beliefs than I do.”. Try it!

See our previous comment. The matters and what people believe impacts how they live. If you studied the Scriptures more you would find that they put a premium on truth.
What did Paul do in Acts 17:16-34? Do you think he took your kind of attitude?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If you mean her role in the Catholic church then we have a problem…

guanophore
Think how much simplier your life could be?! You could say “I am not going to have a “problem” because Catholics believe differently than I”. Imagine the freedom!

Think of how much your pleasant your life would be if you took a month or 2 away from CAF? Think of how refreshing that would be for you and your gang?

 

[Leeann]

Both.

Thank you david.

 

[Leeann]

WOW!

…am I behind!

A few posts to try and catch up…then out again all day tomorrow!

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
You didn’t answer the question guanophore.
Where is Mary preached or taught about in the “gospel message” by Jesus or the Apostles?

guanophore:
I did answer you, Leeann. But, as you are prone to point out, you did not like my answer. I responded that Catholics do not distill the 'gospel" to the readers digest version.

Matt 28:17-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

We believe that the kerygma contains “everything” that Jesus has commanded. We don’t believe that the HS allowed spurious and unrelated matter in the Holy Writings. Since Mary is there,then we believe she is part of the gospel message.

Are you objecting that her name is not mentioned in the 20th century invention of “the sinners prayer”?

Not at all. I’m objecting that her name is not mentioned in any Jesus/Apostles’ teachings/preaching of the “gospel message”…or that any reference is given to encourage prayer to/through the saints that are in heaven……which would include Mary.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Oh – but can you not quote some scripture verses – as you’ve done before on other things – any at all – with Jesus or the Apostles actually teaching and preaching about Mary with regards to the above about Mary ….it would be very helpful. Are they there?

guanophore:
I think you want to hear the words coming out of Pauls mouth (or pen) somewhere in his letters. Apparently you are presupposing that the pure ‘gospel’ is not valid unless it is in this form. Catholics believe that the whole of the NT represents the Kerygma of the Apostles. The fact that Mary is found throughout demonstrates to us that she is part and parcel of the gospel message.
Others are found throughout the books of the gospel or the epistles – however the “gospel message” for the salvation of all mankind that Jesus and the Apostles’ taught and preached, makes no mention of Mary.
You seem to have a need to separate and distill out of that message, presumabely because you are scandalized by some Marian centered practices that you have witnessed.

It doesn’t take any distilling to see the gospel message – unless of course things have been added to it that aren’t present in the first place.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Their teachings are not “reflected” – they are there.

guanophore:
I will concede that everything present in the NT represents the Teachings of the Apostles. However, the notion that they are all contained therein is false, and there are passages that are very obscure.

I will ask you again. Why do you think there are any references to Mary in the NT?

I see no reason why they shouldn’t be and no great significance that they have to be.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
But Mary isn’t left out.

guanophore:
Why not? You seem to think that, if her name is not found on the lips of Peter during the Pentecost sermon, that she is not part of the story!

No – I’ve never said that – those are your words – not mine.
Peter preached Jesus at the Pentecost sermon – not Mary. That’s just the way it was.
My quote above – “Mary isn’t left out” – is in relation to the fact that she’s mentioned accordingly to her significance, - that may not satisfy what the Catholic church needs, but that’s just the way it is.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Mary’s role is recorded with the significance it deserves…just as Jesus’ role is recorded and focused on, with the significance it deserves, because it is to be all about HIM.

guanophore:
I agree that the gospel message is Christ centered. However, it is not “all about HIm”. He came and died for us, so that we could be with HIm in eternity. It is about what he has done for us. He partook of human nature so that we can become partakers of God’s nature.

I believe you know what I meant- sufficient to say – it’s “centered” on Him…and if it’s not “all about Him”…well only due to the alterations that have been made by the Catholic Church.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
No – I keep quoting that because it distinguishes how “HIS OWN immutable glory” is separate from Mary and everything/everyone – those verses clearly define that distinction.

guanophore:
Ok, that makes sense. It is this immuntable glory into which His grace brings us. Mary is the first and best example of our participation in His Divine Glory. She embodies the Theosis to which all of us are called. God chose not to dwell alone in HIs glory, and created us to have fellowship with HIm.

Whether Mary is or not – is not the question at hand – Jesus is still Lord and above ALL.