And again you are making rash statements by not keeping the “context” of the postings in mind.
We’re all supposed to point to Jesus.
The one they preached about of course. Jesus.
No, ja4. All YOU know is in the NT, because you have rejected the part of the Apostolic Teaching that is not contained therein.
No, ja4. Proof is not necessary for those who have faith. It is necessary for you because you are faithless in the matter. I could not “prove” anyone’s conception, since I am lacking access to the medical equipment. There is a great movie called The Miracle of Life that shows coneption on film. I am amazed how they got the photos!
No, ja4, “we” don’t have a problem, but apparently you do. Why do you constantly try to give your problems to Catholics? At least have the decency to own your own problems!
They can do whatever God allows them to do, just as Samuel was able to appear and communicate with Saul, because God permitted him.
no, ja4, scripture does NOT say this. Why do you come here and post these lies? What type of glee could you possibly get out of slandering the Holy Word of God? There are eternal consequences for such things.
If you believe that you are safe in leaving Mary out of the Gospel message, then more power to you.
Exactly!
If you think that Peter was disrespectful to Jesus’ mother you are in grave error.
such a statement presupposes that all that was important to Paul is found in his letters, but this is not the case. On the contrary, the one gospel writer that spent the most time with Paul is the one that has the most detailed Marian stories.
What makes you say He didn’t?
She always asked everything “in his name”, consistent with His desires. She had more “askings” of Him on earth than any other human being. Who knows how many special favors He did for her the first 30 years? Enough that she was quite sure, if she told Him the wine ran out, He would do the best thing.
This question represents a misunderstanding of the immaculate conception. Mary herself states that God is her saviour. She was there in the upper room because she wanted to support the disciples. The HS had overshadowed her 33 years before that.
This is a good point. No amount of thieological discussion will feed the hungry or minister to the poor. In such matters it would be better to follow her example, and that of the other women, who followed Jesus and and the Apostles, fed them, and provided for them during His earthly ministry.
Do you think that the references to Mary ended up in the NT by some quirk? Do you think maybe Mary bribed the NT writers to put her stories in there? Maybe she refused to darn John’s socks unless he included her in His gospel?
You can read it right there! It is in between the definition of the word “Trinity” and the table of contents for the Bible.
I am glad to hear you concede that the NT is part of the Sacred Tradition of the church.Well unless the books of the NT that is part of the “Sacred History of the Church” have somehow changed -
they still don’t have any record of Jesus or the Apostles preaching or teaching about Mary.
Everything in the NT is inspired-inerrant, just as was the Teaching of the Apostles. We see their teaching reflected in the NT, especially in the four gospels, called by the early Christians “the memoirs of the Apostles”. For some reason I guess you think that Mary should be left out of the Holy Writings so that your Readers Digest version can be the ideal.You keep quoting this, presumabely because you believe that God glorifying Himself in His saints somehow takes away from His own immutable glory, but it does not.
Then why do you keep saying "Jesus and the Apostles never…’ when it is right there in the NT?
It is God who has exalted Mary. The Church has followed the lead of the HS.
Were you there? Do you have the mp3’s? I will pay top dollar! Where do you think that Luke came up with his parallels to the Ark of the Covenant?
If you choose to consider the gospel message of the shed blood of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ as a “readers digest version” and that it is not worth settling for or that there is not enough sufficiency in it for you to be able to enter into His presence…that’s your choice.
the shed blood of Christ, although the summit of our faith, is not all there is to it. It is the beginning, and the foundation for all. Yet, He chose to draw His flesh from Mary, and shed that blood because He was incarnated, taking on the form of a slave. This is also part of the gospel.
Leeann;4399996:
We believe that all of it would not have been given if all of it were not important.
I have been in 5 different ones, and I know for sure that there are several “versions” of being saved. Not al of them are consisten with apostolic teaching.
God, in His sovereignity, has allowed Satan certain dominion for the present time. The fact that God permits evil does not mean that Satan is more powerful than God.
Being confused is not equivalent to faithlessness. She had found favor with God the way we all do, by being faithful. She was troubled by what sort of greeting it might be. The angel revered her with a title - “Full of Grace”, not by her name. Angels are tremendous powerful beings, and most people fall down in front of them. They are “awe” some.
Mary did not question that what the angel said would be true, as 'ol Zachy did. Mary wondered “how”.
Mary’s life was already completely devoted to God. She was the “handmaid of the Lord”. She gave her consent completely to God before the angel ever came.
Without a doubt!
That’s why we’re Catholic.
The one with continuity of history and doctrine that started at Pentecost and has the history and theology to talk about: the one that produced the table of contents of the Bible.
It’s short but it will save us a lot of time.
I am saying that because you do not know Pope Benedict’s profound Christology, his lifelong quest for the Heart of Christ, that the sentence on Mary looks like a focal point, which, for him, it is not. Jesus of Nazareth is a profound and compelling memoir of a deep, intense engagement with Christ through the gospels. Warning: it’s brainy and sophisticated as well as intimate and personal. It’s best taken in small bites.
Perhaps you are unaware that there is a huge difference between a Church and a denomination. True particular Churches are not ‘denominations’ in the sense of being a cluster of like-minded folk who form a club based on credal or anti-credal formulae. They all are part of that river united with and flowing from the Apostolic root in a concrete hand-to-hand way (or rather, hand-to-head way by the laying on of hands) through history.
Yes – Zacharias’ “prayer” was heard.
He had been *praying *– and when the angel came and told him that his prayer had been heard and that his wife would bear a son – Zacharias questioned this “answer to prayer” .
= onenow1It’s highly probable that Zechariah was aware of the power of God as he was a priest. And It’s likely that a 14 or 15 year old would Question this sort of announcement.
Zechariah’s Whereby shall I know this,?< DOUBT.KJV.
Mary’s was how shall this be seeing I know not man. KJV?
I believe Zechariah knew the facts of life and how he would know !It almost seems like a dumb question regardless of advanced age ,remember Abe’ story ?
Mary’s question is reasonable !
God’s Will was going to be fulfilled…no matter what.
Of course !
In the same manner – the angel didn’t “ask for Mary’s consent” – as you state in your original question above - he told Mary what was going to happen.
Indeed and God told Adam what was going to happen also.
Peace,onenow1:cake:
Leeann;4399810:
– and when the angel came and told him that his prayer had been heard and that his wife would bear a son – Zacharias questioned this “answer to prayer” .
= onenow1It’s highly probable that Zechariah was aware of the power of God as he was a priest. And It’s likely that a 14 or 15 year old would Question this sort of announcement.
Zechariah’s Whereby shall I know this,?< DOUBT.KJV.
Mary’s was how shall this be seeing I know not man. KJV?
I believe Zechariah knew the facts of life and how he would know !It almost seems like a dumb question regardless of advanced age ,remember Abe’ story ?
Mary’s question is reasonable !
God’s Will was going to be fulfilled…no matter what.
Of course !
In the same manner – the angel didn’t “ask for Mary’s consent” – as you state in your original question above - he told Mary what was going to happen.
Indeed and God told Adam what was going to happen also.
Peace,onenow1:cake:
The most beautiful word ever spoken by human tongue! Fiat secundum verbum tuum.
But it wasn’t given……it was “developed”.
So why did you bring satan into the conversation at all?
I never said it was – you used the word “confused” in your original post….
Well – some other versions of the Catholic Bible express it differently – New Jerusalem : 28 He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’ And New American Standard , 28And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
Mary did not question that what the angel said would be true, as 'ol Zachy did. Mary wondered “how”.
Oh yes, of course – Mary is always just that much a little “ahead” and “before” God….isn’t she?
You didn’t answer the question guanophore.
Oh – but can you not quote some scripture verses – as you’ve done before on other things – any at all – with Jesus or the Apostles actually teaching and preaching about Mary with regards to the above about Mary ….it would be very helpful. Are they there?guanophore:
You can read it right there! It is in between the definition of the word “Trinity” and the table of contents for the Bible.
Their teachings are not “reflected” – they are there.
But Mary isn’t left out.
No – I keep quoting that because it distinguishes how “HIS OWN immutable glory” is separate from Mary and everything/everyone – those verses clearly define that distinction…
I said that Jesus and the Apostles never preached or taught about Mary in their “gospel message” of salvation for all mankind. The Apostles write about Mary and give the proper significance to the role she played in the salvation history – nothing more.
God did exalt Mary and she was faithful and obedient.
You make me smile guanophore
And what would be the significance of this with regards to what we were discussing?
Oh! So Mary is just like all the other older normal women and that is how you are to accept her…with the same honor and respect you would give any other older woman/man/sister…just as the Apostles accepted them.
Perhaps the Pope would be best to stick to what “looks” commendable then, especially being the position he is.
There’s no difference……only from the Catholic Church’s perspective.
How do you know what God intended for Mary? What higher honor could we as Christians EVER give her, that exceeds the honor GOD gave her? She carried our Lord in her womb, she held Him when He was first born, she raised Him obediently, and she felt the agony of “a sword piercing her heart” when she witnessed Her son, crucified. God raised her, body and soul, to be with Him in heaven for eternity. What is it we Catholics do for Mary that you think is greater than what God did?
It’s not what the Catholic Church does for Mary……as to what the Catholic Church has done to Mary.
I don’t get the feeling that that was sincere. Leeann is not seeking peace. She is making a good point and even if you or anyone else on this thread thinks she is right you won’t admit it because that would mean you are unfaithful to the Pope and the Church and the Vatican. The original question is “To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?” The Church has one perfect savior. Why create another one ? Co-redeemer, mediatrix and advocate are confusing terms. Jesus is redeemer and mediator and the Holy Spirit is the Advocate.
Mary said, “All nations will call me blessed!” She knew that because of the great things God had done for her, we would honor and bless her for all our days
She didn’t say “all nations will call me blessed, but I wish they wouldn’t…it takes away from my son…” Even the Angel greeted her “Hail Mary! Full of Grace!” He could have greeted the child Jesus, after he was in her womb, but he didn’t! He gave MARY honor by his greeting!