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prayerwarrior17
Guest
is it stated in the bible saying that somebody in heaven can pray for us here in earth?..pls help me cause im confused…GOD BLESS…
Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?
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guanophore
Guest
No, there is no difference. Such a statement reflects a very narrow understanding of prayer. At request for intercession is not worship, but supplication. This is why the courts, to this day, use paperwork that says “the plaintiff prays the court”…
To make a request of someone, whether a magistrate or a Christian prayer warrior, is not adoration, reserved for God alone.
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ron77nyc
Guest
The Bible states very clearly that we are to pray to the Father. Jesus didn’t even tell anyone to pray to Himself but He instructed everyone to pray to the Father.
Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
Matthew 6:9 "This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, 4 he should ask God who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and he will be given it.
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guanophore
Guest
Welcome to CAF, prayerwarrior. The Bible was never intended to be the sole rule of faith, or to contain everything about our faith practice. However, the Bible is clear that there is One Body, and that death cannot separate us from Him. This being the case, we cannot be separated from one another by death either. However, that is off topic in this thread, which is about the Pope’s prayer to Mary. The Pope was heard by others reciting a favorite prayer, and some who heard him have judged his faith to be “off”, since his expression was directed to Mary “and not” Christ.
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ron77nyc
Guest
Have you ever prayed to or would you pray to the Pope, a priest or a close friend in the Church?
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guanophore
Guest
Indeed. I think she chose well a passage that demonstrates this.
I think this is a sticking point to many Protestants because they lack any sacramental sense. For Catholics, the center of worship is the Eucharist. Therefore, however many pictures or devotions to Mary happen outside the Divine Liturgy, they all fall short of the Source and Summit of our faith. When devotion to Mary outside of the Mass is all that is seen, it is mistaken for the core of “worship”, which it is not, and can never be. I am not sure a person who does not understand the Eucharist can grasp this.
This belongs on another thread. It is off topic here. The Pope was saying a prayer to Mary because the saints in heaven can hear whatever God allows them to hear. In Heb. 12:1-2 we are informed that we are surrounded by “a great cloud of witnesses”. how can anyone be a “witness” who cannot see and hear?
I have never felt a need to request the intercession of the present successor of Peter, as I know he prays for all the flock daily. I have requested the intercession of many popes who have gone on before to their heavenly reward. Catholics regularly ask for the intercession of Peter, and there is a litany of ealy Popes embedded in the Divine Liturgy. These elements have been part of the prayer life of the Church since St. Stephen was martyred for the faith.
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Claude_Kenneson
Guest
What do you make of Heb. 12:22-24? Why “approach” the “spirits of the just made perfect” if they cannot intercede for you?
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ron77nyc
Guest
I’m not saying everyone has to do it my way but if Mary says do whatever Jesus tells you and Jesus tells us to pray to the Father then we should do exactly that. It’s my opinion and only my opinion that we do have intercessors in heavenly realms and we don’t need to tell them how to do their job. God knows what we need before we even ask. Call me narrow minded if you will but there is nothing wrong with simplicity. The faith was never supposed to be so complicated.
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mercygate
Guest
But neglecting the power of the Holy Spirit to operate in and through the Church built by Christ upon the foundation of the Apostles?
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mercygate
Guest
I have mentioned this book at LEAST three times on this thread. At LEAST.
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Claude_Kenneson
Guest
In the Old Testament, doesn’t calling upon the name of Yahweh refer to praying to Yahweh? In the New Testament, we are to call upon the name of Jesus. Why would that not mean prayer to Jesus? 1 Cor. 1:2
Acts 7:59-60 “As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Then he fell to his knees and cried out in a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them’; and when he said this, he fell asleep.” Why would Stephen pray to the Lord Jesus if it is somehow wrong to pray to him? Prayer can be addressed to the Son, as well as the Father.
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mercygate
Guest
Once again – these verses in John in no way indicate that Mary has the “privileged position as Mother of any church.
Perhaps going directly to Him in prayer in the name of Jesus would be or more assurance?
It’s not a matter of taking his words out of context……it’s the point that he’s turning to Mary in the first place.
Jesus and the Apostles certainly made no reference to this.
Beliefs of the Catholic Church….as the theology was developed over the centuries. :shrug:Not just Catholics. The entire Christian world understood the special role Our Lady plays in the economy of salvation from very early times. The Orthodox have never abandoned their devotion to her and attribute many documented miracles to her intercession throughout the centuries.
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Claude_Kenneson
Guest
Good! Repetition is the mother of retention. Maybe if we repeat it enough times she will acknowledge it.
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mercygate
Guest
Does this reflect the theology of the Catholic Church?
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mercygate
Guest
WAIT! WAIT! Repetition is PAGAN! Our Lord cautions us not to use “*VAIN repetition.” *Clearly, we are asking (aka “praying” as in "Prithee, Leann, . . . ) Leann to look into the Christological underpinnings of Pope Benedict XVI’s faith but in vain.
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ron77nyc
Guest
Jesus is God. Wouldn’t it be great if I could explain the trinity?
Stephen was talking to Jesus because he knew Jesus had all power and authority because Jesus created everything with God the Father. No other heavenly being has all power and authority. He created Mary. That is why it is wrong for the Pope to put the world in anyone’s hands but God the Father.
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Leeann
Guest
WOW…look at all the postings!
Do you people ever sleep!
Will be out most of the day…and snow on top of it all to try and get through…but will get back and respond asap! :snowing:
Do you people ever sleep!
Will be out most of the day…and snow on top of it all to try and get through…but will get back and respond asap! :snowing:
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ron77nyc
Guest
This is very encouraging. The Pope preached the gospel yesterday.
zenit.org/article-24367?l=english
Pontiff Urges Reign of Christ in Hearts
Says That’s How to Spread Jesus’ Kingship in World
VATICAN CITY, NOV. 25, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Christ’s kingship over the world can be prevented insofar as men and women refuse to let him reign over their hearts, Benedict XVI says.
The Pope affirmed this in an address last Saturday to pilgrims from the southern Italian Archdiocese of Amalfi-Cava de’ Tirreni. The archdiocesan gathering occurred on the vigil of the feast of Christ the King.
“The Word of God that we will hear tomorrow will repeat to us that [Christ’s] face, the revelation of the invisible mystery of the Father, is that of the Good Shepherd, ready to take care of his scattered sheep, to gather them together so that they may graze and then rest in safety,” the Holy Father said. “…] The Word of God will remind us too that the face of Christ, King of the universe, is that of the judge, for God is at the same time a good and merciful shepherd and a just judge.”
At the Last Judgment, the Holy Father continued, Christ “invites the just to enter into the inheritance that has been prepared for them from eternity, while he condemns the reprobates to eternal fire, prepared for the devil and for the other rebellious angels. The criterion of judgment is decisive. This criterion is love, the concrete charity to neighbor, and in particular to the ‘little ones,’ people in the greatest difficulties: the hungry, thirsty, foreigners, naked, sick and imprisoned.”
“Dear brothers and sisters,” the Pontiff added, "it is this that interests God. Historical kingship does not matter to him; but he wants to reign in peoples’ hearts, and from there, over the world: He is King of the whole universe but the critical point, the zone in which his Kingdom is at risk, is our heart, for it is there that God encounters our freedom.
“We, and we alone, can prevent him from reigning over us and hence hinder his kingship over the world: over the family, over society, over history. We men and women have the faculty to choose whose side we wish to be on: with Christ and his angels or with the devil and his followers, to use the same language as the Gospel.”
Benedict XVI said that each individual person has to decide “whether to practice justice or wickedness, to embrace love and forgiveness or revenge and homicidal hatred.”
“On this depends our personal salvation but also the salvation of the world,” he affirmed. “This is why Jesus wishes to associate us with his kingship; this is why he invites us to collaborate in the coming of his Kingdom of love, justice and peace.”
“It is left to us,” the Pope concluded, “to respond to him, not with words but with deeds: by choosing the path of effective and generous love for our neighbor we allow him to extend his lordship in time and space.”
On the Net:
Full text: zenit.org/article-24366?l=english
zenit.org/article-24367?l=english
Pontiff Urges Reign of Christ in Hearts
Says That’s How to Spread Jesus’ Kingship in World
VATICAN CITY, NOV. 25, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Christ’s kingship over the world can be prevented insofar as men and women refuse to let him reign over their hearts, Benedict XVI says.
The Pope affirmed this in an address last Saturday to pilgrims from the southern Italian Archdiocese of Amalfi-Cava de’ Tirreni. The archdiocesan gathering occurred on the vigil of the feast of Christ the King.
“The Word of God that we will hear tomorrow will repeat to us that [Christ’s] face, the revelation of the invisible mystery of the Father, is that of the Good Shepherd, ready to take care of his scattered sheep, to gather them together so that they may graze and then rest in safety,” the Holy Father said. “…] The Word of God will remind us too that the face of Christ, King of the universe, is that of the judge, for God is at the same time a good and merciful shepherd and a just judge.”
At the Last Judgment, the Holy Father continued, Christ “invites the just to enter into the inheritance that has been prepared for them from eternity, while he condemns the reprobates to eternal fire, prepared for the devil and for the other rebellious angels. The criterion of judgment is decisive. This criterion is love, the concrete charity to neighbor, and in particular to the ‘little ones,’ people in the greatest difficulties: the hungry, thirsty, foreigners, naked, sick and imprisoned.”
“Dear brothers and sisters,” the Pontiff added, "it is this that interests God. Historical kingship does not matter to him; but he wants to reign in peoples’ hearts, and from there, over the world: He is King of the whole universe but the critical point, the zone in which his Kingdom is at risk, is our heart, for it is there that God encounters our freedom.
“We, and we alone, can prevent him from reigning over us and hence hinder his kingship over the world: over the family, over society, over history. We men and women have the faculty to choose whose side we wish to be on: with Christ and his angels or with the devil and his followers, to use the same language as the Gospel.”
Benedict XVI said that each individual person has to decide “whether to practice justice or wickedness, to embrace love and forgiveness or revenge and homicidal hatred.”
“On this depends our personal salvation but also the salvation of the world,” he affirmed. “This is why Jesus wishes to associate us with his kingship; this is why he invites us to collaborate in the coming of his Kingdom of love, justice and peace.”
“It is left to us,” the Pope concluded, “to respond to him, not with words but with deeds: by choosing the path of effective and generous love for our neighbor we allow him to extend his lordship in time and space.”
On the Net:
Full text: zenit.org/article-24366?l=english
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Does it SURPRISE you that the Pope preaches the gospel? Who better to do so than the successor to St. Peter, after all?
(Note: I am not saying that Pope Benedict is ‘better than you’ like a demigod, ron, or Leeann, etc. I’m not saying that you two or anybody else can’t preach the gospel well. I am saying that the man the Holy Spirit appointed to lead Christ’s own Church should be the one of all men we would EXPECT to preach the gospel and, under the protection of the Holy Spirit, to preach it well. That doesn’t mean that occasional Popes haven’t disregarded the Spirit in the matter of their personal lives–thus ‘preaching’ that they personally were guilty at a particular time of a particular sin which the gospel decries, such as themselves not living chastely or perhaps acting angrily. . but it does mean that the Pope should be the best living example to us in preaching and living the gospel when he is (as he should be) trying to shepherd his flock (as St. Peter was given the task to do).
(Note: I am not saying that Pope Benedict is ‘better than you’ like a demigod, ron, or Leeann, etc. I’m not saying that you two or anybody else can’t preach the gospel well. I am saying that the man the Holy Spirit appointed to lead Christ’s own Church should be the one of all men we would EXPECT to preach the gospel and, under the protection of the Holy Spirit, to preach it well. That doesn’t mean that occasional Popes haven’t disregarded the Spirit in the matter of their personal lives–thus ‘preaching’ that they personally were guilty at a particular time of a particular sin which the gospel decries, such as themselves not living chastely or perhaps acting angrily. . but it does mean that the Pope should be the best living example to us in preaching and living the gospel when he is (as he should be) trying to shepherd his flock (as St. Peter was given the task to do).
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ron77nyc
Guest
Yes I am surprised because I’m Catholic and I’ve never heard a Pope proclaim Jesus until now. I think this next link is also surprising. The Pope talks about a personal relationship with Jesus.
zenit.org/article-15593?l=english
Apostles Proclaim Christ, Not an Idea, Says Pope
Explains Relationship Between Jesus and the Church
VATICAN CITY, MARCH 22, 2006 (Zenit.org).- The first apostles, like today’s, were not heralds of an idea but rather witnesses of Christ before the world, says Benedict XVI.
The Pope delivered that message today in his second general audience address dedicated to explain the relationship between Jesus and the Church.
In an address before 35,000 people gathered in St. Peter’s Square, the Holy Father focused on Jesus’ call to the Twelve Apostles.
In particular, the Pope recalled the dialogue recounted by John the Evangelist on the banks of the Jordan, when John the Baptizer presented Jesus as the Lamb of God.
To the question: “What do you seek?”, the future apostles replied with another question: “‘Rabbi’ – which means Teacher – ‘where are you staying?’” Jesus replied “Come and see.”
“Thus, the apostles’ adventure began as a gathering of persons who open to one another reciprocally. A direct knowledge of the Teacher began for the disciples,” Benedict XVI explained.
To “be”
“They saw where he lived and began to know him. They would not have to be heralds of an idea, but witnesses of a person,” he added.
“Before being sent to evangelize, they would have to ‘be’ with Jesus, establishing a personal relationship with him,” the Pope continued.
Therefore, “evangelization is no more than a proclamation of what has been experienced and an invitation to enter into the mystery of communion with Christ,” added the Holy Father. “An apostle is someone who is sent, but even before that he is an ‘expert’ on Jesus.”
After his passion and resurrection, Christ “would send the apostles ‘into all the world,’ and to ‘all nations,’ ‘and to the end of the earth,’” indicated the Pope.
“And this mission continues,” he said. "The Lord’s commandment always continues to gather the nations in the unity of his love.
“This is our hope and this is also our commandment to contribute to that universality, to this true unity in the richness of cultures, in communion with our true Lord Jesus Christ.”
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