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Tantum_ergo
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Ron, with due respect, if you haven’t heard the Pope ‘proclaim Jesus’ before this. . .you haven’t been listening.
Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?
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jfhh
Guest
Question.
Do you apply this legalistic, either or, mentality in areas of your life not related to Mary or Catholicism?
For example, if I say to my friend: “I am thankful for your assistance. I had no one else to turn to and am so grateful.”
IN TURNING to my friend I am TURNING to God. No rational person would think that in turning to my friend I am spurning God or Jesus or Mary or anyone for that matter. Does my gratitude to my friend there mean that I am opposed to thanksgiving to God? No. In being grateful to my friend I am in that very gratefulness being grateful to God.
Clear?
I don’t mean this post to sound harsh.
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FCEGM
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To echo Tantum - you haven’t been listening, Ron. Here are some examples just from a few of the encyclicals of our late Holy Father, John Paul II:
Redemptor hominis:
Dives in misericordia:
Veritatis splendor:
Redemptoris missio:
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ron77nyc
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Blessed John XXIII (1958-63) Did many good things and certainly lived the Gospel message but was not a preacher or teacher of the Gospel.
Paul VI (1963-78) was a Marian pope, visiting Marian shrines and issuing three Marian encyclicals. He didn’t emphasize faith in Jesus.
John Paul I (1978) Died a mysterious death
John Paul II (1978-2005) Wanted to proclaim a 5th Marian dogma to make Mary a co-redemptrix. He didn’t emphasize faith in Jesus.
I don’t know what happened prior to 1958. I was busy learning to roller skate and ride my tricycle.
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ron77nyc
Guest
Thank you. I know the Popes have always believed in and taught about Jesus but Jesus was always in the background. He and the gospel are supposed to be ahead of everything. When the popes get on television or come to a city people should be saying, “Is he going to tell us about Jesus again?” Jesus said among those born of women there is no greater prophet than John the Baptist. John the Baptist said, “I must decrease and He must increase.”
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Tantum_ergo
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Tantum_ergo
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Now, to ron and any others. . .I am trying to be charitable here. The last posts ron made about how the Popes, specifically John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II ‘did not put an emphasis on Jesus’ really upset me, as a Christian, and I do think that the assertions made without a shred of proof are offensive. . .but that does not mean that I in any way am calling any poster personally offensive. I just wanted to make that clear.
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Leeann
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I never suggested that anyone should be “discarded” – that is your statement - of course one would continue to admire and esteem them, but not to the point where their focus and attention and expectations were placed in them and not concentrated on Christ.
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Leeann
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These verses encourage Christians to pray and support one another, as we should all do, they in no way indicate that after death we or anyone else can intercede.
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Leeann
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These verses do not say that we are to pray to anyone there, they are stating who is there, there’s no indication that they are interceding for anyone, just that they are there with Jesus, our mediator.
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Leeann
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That statement is very revealing……the Catholic Church may be built upon the foundation of the Apostles……but “Christ” is the foundation of “His church”….true and faithful believers wherever they may worship.
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Leeann
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Mercygate and Claude Kenneson
I am sorry, I haven’t responded…been busy today with other things….and I’m sorry that I never responded to your previous posting of the Pope’s book, Mercygate on Jesus, however, better late than never……I haven’t read the book, but I am sure that it is Christ centred and written in great faith and love……however, with regards to the topic of this thread….about the Pope’s prayer directed to Mary…dedication of the world to her…all I can say is that a ‘little leaven spoils the whole….’
I am sorry, I haven’t responded…been busy today with other things….and I’m sorry that I never responded to your previous posting of the Pope’s book, Mercygate on Jesus, however, better late than never……I haven’t read the book, but I am sure that it is Christ centred and written in great faith and love……however, with regards to the topic of this thread….about the Pope’s prayer directed to Mary…dedication of the world to her…all I can say is that a ‘little leaven spoils the whole….’
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Leeann
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Well it certainly reflects the Marian Theology that the Catholic Church has developed over the centuries.
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Tantum_ergo
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You mean the Christian theology which Christ assured us His Holy Spirit would lead His Church to, correct?
Mary is, of course, Christ’s mother. One could as easily speak (and many protestant Christians do) of Pauline theology. Nobody says that St. Paul, in speaking of Christianity, is being made an ‘idol’ or put on a par with Christ. . .why then is speaking of Mary (the woman whom the Father created from all time to bear the Son) considered outside the pale? No Catholic theology (which is of course the original and pure Christian theology) is ‘made of whole cloth’ or made 'outside of ’ Christ Himself. The doctrines of Mary, as I believe I mentioned earlier, did not ‘pop into being’ in the 19th century, or the 20th century, but have existed in Christian teaching from the beginnings of Christianity itself. It is the Protestants who have chosen to deny these doctrines. . .doctrines which were held by Martin Luther and Calvin and Henry VIII as authentic, Scriptural and recognized Christian teaching.
I’m not suprised though that an attempt is being made to have it appear that “the Catholic Church” ‘added’ bogus doctrines. It’s on a par with the accusation that we ‘added’ bogus books to the Bible too. For going on the offensive (so to speak, in a figurative sense of course) is an excellent tactic for those who actually were the ones who ‘took away’ books. "Took away’ doctrines.
It’s an attempt to change the perspective, to play ‘sleight of hand’. It’s an attempt to deny that one disobeyed authority by accusing the AUTHORITY of the disobedience instead.
Mary is, of course, Christ’s mother. One could as easily speak (and many protestant Christians do) of Pauline theology. Nobody says that St. Paul, in speaking of Christianity, is being made an ‘idol’ or put on a par with Christ. . .why then is speaking of Mary (the woman whom the Father created from all time to bear the Son) considered outside the pale? No Catholic theology (which is of course the original and pure Christian theology) is ‘made of whole cloth’ or made 'outside of ’ Christ Himself. The doctrines of Mary, as I believe I mentioned earlier, did not ‘pop into being’ in the 19th century, or the 20th century, but have existed in Christian teaching from the beginnings of Christianity itself. It is the Protestants who have chosen to deny these doctrines. . .doctrines which were held by Martin Luther and Calvin and Henry VIII as authentic, Scriptural and recognized Christian teaching.
I’m not suprised though that an attempt is being made to have it appear that “the Catholic Church” ‘added’ bogus doctrines. It’s on a par with the accusation that we ‘added’ bogus books to the Bible too. For going on the offensive (so to speak, in a figurative sense of course) is an excellent tactic for those who actually were the ones who ‘took away’ books. "Took away’ doctrines.
It’s an attempt to change the perspective, to play ‘sleight of hand’. It’s an attempt to deny that one disobeyed authority by accusing the AUTHORITY of the disobedience instead.
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Leeann
Guest
Your posting doesn’t sound harsh at all.
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
This particular prayer has little to do with the Pope being “grateful to Mary” – he is “imploring” **her **to have “pity” on the whole world that they may repent and return to her heart……stating he/we will not know to whom to turn……if we are deemed “ungrateful and unworthy children of her protection”……
My question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …Mary…or Jesus?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
You have posted these excerpts more than once Leeann, and you have indeed been careful to note they are excerpts. But in all those times, you have ignored the end of this article. So permit me, please:
“This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus.”
Through Mary to Jesus.
The whole point of this article then is to note that when the Pope is speaking of prayers to Mary, such as the Rosary or the prayer of Blessed Lepanto or whatever, all is to be understood in proper, authentic CHRISTIAN teaching which even the early Protestants themselves understood and accepted. . . Mary’s role is to be the means through which Jesus came to us, and thus, she is also a legitimate ‘means’ for US to go through to HIM. In fact, that is above all the ONLY reason for us to go to her–in order to go to Him.
It is a humble and loving and respectful way and it is moreover what God Himself gave us and taught us.
Let me repeat:
“This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus.”
Through Mary to Jesus.
The whole point of this article then is to note that when the Pope is speaking of prayers to Mary, such as the Rosary or the prayer of Blessed Lepanto or whatever, all is to be understood in proper, authentic CHRISTIAN teaching which even the early Protestants themselves understood and accepted. . . Mary’s role is to be the means through which Jesus came to us, and thus, she is also a legitimate ‘means’ for US to go through to HIM. In fact, that is above all the ONLY reason for us to go to her–in order to go to Him.
It is a humble and loving and respectful way and it is moreover what God Himself gave us and taught us.
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John1
Guest
I think that the Apostles would direct prayer to Jesus. In fact, we have their letters in the NT and I believe that is where they said to go. There is a verse somewhere that says that there is on Mediator between man and God and that is Jesus. There’s another verse somewhere that says evreything will be subected to the Son, except the Father, then after this is done, then the Son will again be subjected to the Father. At least I think these writtings are in the NT.
Blessings
Blessings
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Leeann
Guest
No – I mean the Catholic theology – Mariology - that the Catholic Church has developed over the centuries.
The obvious difference is that Paul and Peter and all of the Apostles - taught and preached the gospel message centered and focused on CHRIST.
As you can see from first statement above – I understand that these are not new theories by any means. As “doctrines” however – official “doctrines/dogmas” – a few have indeed “popped into being” – in the 19th and 20th century.
The Immaculate Conception:
“We declare, pronounce and define that the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, by the singular grace and privilege of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, and that this doctrine was revealed by God, and therefore must be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful” Pope Pius IX Dec 8th, 1854 (papal bull).
The Assumption of Mary:
The Assumption of Mary is held infallibly by both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. However, it was not until 1950 that it was officially pronounced a dogma by Pope Pius XII in his Papal Bull Munificentissimus Deus.
The official language states:
“We pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith” 1950
As to having “existed in Christian teaching from the beginnings of Christianity itself “ – Jesus himself never taught or preached the necessity of believing in the attributes that the Catholic Church has afforded to Mary, nor did the Apostles.
Me thinks you protest too much – YOU are the one that brought all this up in the first place and then above you state that “an attempt is being made to have it appear that the Catholic Church added bogus doctrines”….???
Yes…well….
Back to the thread topic – to whom would the Apostles point the Pope too ….Mary or Jesus?
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Leeann
Guest
Thank you for your response.
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Leeann
Guest
There is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
Jesus is willing and able and capable and DESIRING that we go to/through Him in prayer.
Let’s look at the whole article – complete – in full:
PONTIFF PUTS WORLD IN MARY’S HANDS
Visits Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii
POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.
The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.
“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.
With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”
In a gesture of filial love, the Pope then offered the Madonna a golden rose.
The Holy Father traveled by helicopter this morning to Pompeii, and was welcomed by 50,000 faithful. This is the third time a Pope has visited the shrine.
Pompeii was destroyed by the lava and ashes from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 A.D.
The new Pompeii arose 1,796 years later, when, in 1872, Bartolo Longo, a lawyer and lay Dominican, built a church dedicated to Our Lady of the Rosary.
The shrine contains an image of Mary to which hundreds of miracles and healings are attributed.
God’s face
In the homily delivered during Holy Mass today, the Pope evoked the figure of Bartolo Longo, who, like St. Paul, had persecuted the Church, “becoming militantly anticlerical and engaging in spiritualist and superstitious practices.”
Longo was a Satanist priest who later repented when he encountered the “true face of God,” the Holy Father said.
“Wherever God comes in this desert, flowers bloom,” said Benedict XVI. "Even Blessed Bartolo Longo, with his personal conversion, bears witness to this spiritual power that transforms man from within and makes him capable of doing great things according to God’s designs.
“This city, which he re-founded is thus a historical demonstration of how God transforms the world: filling man’s heart with charity.”
“Here in Pompeii,” the Pope continued, "it is understood that love for God and love for neighbor are inseparable.
“Here at Mary’s feet, families rediscover or reinforce the joy of love that keeps them united.”
The secret of Pompeii, the Holy Father revealed, is the rosary: "This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus."
Again – there is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
“The rosary is a contemplative prayer that is accessible to all: great and small, lay people and clerics, cultured and uncultured,” he said. **“The rosary is a spiritual weapon **in the struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world.”
(continued in next post)
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