Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

(cont’d. from prev. post)

"The secret of Pompeii, the Holy Father revealed, is the rosary: “This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus.”

“The rosary is a contemplative prayer that is accessible to all: great and small, lay people and clerics, cultured and uncultured,” he said. **“The rosary is a spiritual weapon **in the struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world.”

What do the Apostles say about our struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world?

**Ephesians 6: 10 – 18 **

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Hebrews 4: 14 – 16

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

**And to whom do they point **:

Colossians 2:6 – 9

6 **As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus **the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 **For in him **dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

No mention of Mary…or the necessity of going to/through her…or in praying the “rosary” for its “spiritual weaponry benefits”.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Jesus is God. Wouldn’t it be great if I could explain the trinity?
Stephen was talking to Jesus because he knew Jesus had all power and authority because Jesus created everything with God the Father. No other heavenly being has all power and authority. He created Mary. That is why it is wrong for the Pope to put the world in anyone’s hands but God the Father.

I think we were discussing the impropriety or propriety of praying to Jesus. Was Stephen addressing Jesus in prayer or not? Also, what does it mean to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus if not praying to Him? In Rev. 4 the Father receives adoration; in Rev. 5 the Son receives the same adoration. They both receive the same honor. John 5:23 So, I fail to see why it is o.k. to pray to the Father and not to the Son.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

These verses do not say that we are to pray to anyone there, they are stating who is there, there’s no indication that they are interceding for anyone, just that they are there with Jesus, our mediator.

Exactly how do you approach the ones who are there?

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

There is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
Jesus is willing and able and capable and DESIRING that we go to/through Him in prayer.

Let’s look at the whole article – complete – in full:

PONTIFF PUTS WORLD IN MARY’S HANDS
Visits Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii

POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.
The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.
“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.
With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”
In a gesture of filial love, the Pope then offered the Madonna a golden rose.
The Holy Father traveled by helicopter this morning to Pompeii, and was welcomed by 50,000 faithful. This is the third time a Pope has visited the shrine.
Pompeii was destroyed by the lava and ashes from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 A.D.
The new Pompeii arose 1,796 years later, when, in 1872, Bartolo Longo, a lawyer and lay Dominican, built a church dedicated to Our Lady of the Rosary.

The shrine contains an image of Mary to which hundreds of miracles and healings are attributed.
God’s face
In the homily delivered during Holy Mass today, the Pope evoked the figure of Bartolo Longo, who, like St. Paul, had persecuted the Church, “becoming militantly anticlerical and engaging in spiritualist and superstitious practices.”
Longo was a Satanist priest who later repented when he encountered the “true face of God,” the Holy Father said.
“Wherever God comes in this desert, flowers bloom,” said Benedict XVI. "Even Blessed Bartolo Longo, with his personal conversion, bears witness to this spiritual power that transforms man from within and makes him capable of doing great things according to God’s designs.
“This city, which he re-founded is thus a historical demonstration of how God transforms the world: filling man’s heart with charity.”
“Here in Pompeii,” the Pope continued, "it is understood that love for God and love for neighbor are inseparable.
“Here at Mary’s feet, families rediscover or reinforce the joy of love that keeps them united.”
The secret of Pompeii, the Holy Father revealed, is the rosary: "This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus."
Again – there is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
“The rosary is a contemplative prayer that is accessible to all: great and small, lay people and clerics, cultured and uncultured,” he said. **“The rosary is a spiritual weapon **in the struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world.”

(continued in next post)

So, if people cannot come to Jesus through you (your example, your words, etc.) does He always come to them directly? Why would Jesus use anyone as instruments (Moses, Joshua and other leaders of Israel, the prophets, the apostles, etc.,including you and me or other Christians)?

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

There is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
Jesus is willing and able and capable and DESIRING that we go to/through Him in prayer.

Let’s look at the whole article – complete – in full:

PONTIFF PUTS WORLD IN MARY’S HANDS
Visits Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii

POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.
The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.
“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.
With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”
In a gesture of filial love, the Pope then offered the Madonna a golden rose.
The Holy Father traveled by helicopter this morning to Pompeii, and was welcomed by 50,000 faithful. This is the third time a Pope has visited the shrine.
Pompeii was destroyed by the lava and ashes from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 A.D.
The new Pompeii arose 1,796 years later, when, in 1872, Bartolo Longo, a lawyer and lay Dominican, built a church dedicated to Our Lady of the Rosary.

The shrine contains an image of Mary to which hundreds of miracles and healings are attributed.
God’s face
In the homily delivered during Holy Mass today, the Pope evoked the figure of Bartolo Longo, who, like St. Paul, had persecuted the Church, “becoming militantly anticlerical and engaging in spiritualist and superstitious practices.”
Longo was a Satanist priest who later repented when he encountered the “true face of God,” the Holy Father said.
“Wherever God comes in this desert, flowers bloom,” said Benedict XVI. "Even Blessed Bartolo Longo, with his personal conversion, bears witness to this spiritual power that transforms man from within and makes him capable of doing great things according to God’s designs.
“This city, which he re-founded is thus a historical demonstration of how God transforms the world: filling man’s heart with charity.”
“Here in Pompeii,” the Pope continued, "it is understood that love for God and love for neighbor are inseparable.
“Here at Mary’s feet, families rediscover or reinforce the joy of love that keeps them united.”
The secret of Pompeii, the Holy Father revealed, is the rosary: "This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus."
Again – there is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
“The rosary is a contemplative prayer that is accessible to all: great and small, lay people and clerics, cultured and uncultured,” he said. **“The rosary is a spiritual weapon **in the struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world.”

(continued in next post)

Also, please tell us how Jesus came to this world if not through Mary? You just can’t get around her, even though you might like to.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

These verses do not say that we are to pray to anyone there, they are stating who is there, there’s no indication that they are interceding for anyone, just that they are there with Jesus, our mediator.

Claude Kenneson:

Exactly how do you approach the ones who are there?

Hebrews 4 – 14-16

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
There is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
Jesus is willing and able and capable and DESIRING that we go to/through Him in prayer.

Let’s look at the whole article – complete – in full:

PONTIFF PUTS WORLD IN MARY’S HANDS
Visits Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii

POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.
The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.
“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.
With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”
In a gesture of filial love, the Pope then offered the Madonna a golden rose.
The Holy Father traveled by helicopter this morning to Pompeii, and was welcomed by 50,000 faithful. This is the third time a Pope has visited the shrine.
Pompeii was destroyed by the lava and ashes from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 A.D.
The new Pompeii arose 1,796 years later, when, in 1872, Bartolo Longo, a lawyer and lay Dominican, built a church dedicated to Our Lady of the Rosary.

The shrine contains an image of Mary to which hundreds of miracles and healings are attributed.
God’s face
In the homily delivered during Holy Mass today, the Pope evoked the figure of Bartolo Longo, who, like St. Paul, had persecuted the Church, “becoming militantly anticlerical and engaging in spiritualist and superstitious practices.”
Longo was a Satanist priest who later repented when he encountered the “true face of God,” the Holy Father said.
“Wherever God comes in this desert, flowers bloom,” said Benedict XVI. "Even Blessed Bartolo Longo, with his personal conversion, bears witness to this spiritual power that transforms man from within and makes him capable of doing great things according to God’s designs.
“This city, which he re-founded is thus a historical demonstration of how God transforms the world: filling man’s heart with charity.”
“Here in Pompeii,” the Pope continued, "it is understood that love for God and love for neighbor are inseparable.
“Here at Mary’s feet, families rediscover or reinforce the joy of love that keeps them united.”
The secret of Pompeii, the Holy Father revealed, is the rosary: “This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus.”
Again – there is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
“The rosary is a contemplative prayer that is accessible to all: great and small, lay people and clerics, cultured and uncultured,” he said. “The rosary is a spiritual weapon in the struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world.”

(continued in next post)

Response Claude Kenneson:
So, if people cannot come to Jesus through you (your example, your words, etc.) does He always come to them directly?

What does this question have to do with going to/through Mary in “prayer”???

Why would Jesus use anyone as instruments (Moses, Joshua and other leaders of Israel, the prophets, the apostles, etc.,including you and me or other Christians)?

Again, I cannot see how this has anything to do with going to/through Mary or anyone else in prayer???
I’m assuming you are making reference to the above “quote” you’ve attached here – perhaps I’m incorrect.

 

[Leeann]

Also, please tell us how Jesus came to this world if not through Mary? You just can’t get around her, even though you might like to.

Claude - I really am sorry - I’m finding your postings difficult to follow.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Hebrews 4 – 14-16

But Heb. 13:22-24 doesn’t say that the only one you approach is the Mediator; it mentions the saints as well. Why would it state that? Isn’t Rev. 5:1-8 a depiction of what is going on in heaven including the saints praying to the Lamb, Jesus? Whom do you suppose they’re praying for?

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Claude - I really am sorry - I’m finding your postings difficult to follow.

Jesus came to earth through a woman (Mary). In God’s plan she was indispensable. She was special and unique. Why, then, are you saying that one cannot go through Mary to get to Jesus, when it is through Mary that we got Jesus, in the first place?

 

[Leeann]

But Heb. 13:22-24 doesn’t say that the only one you approach is the Mediator; it mentions the saints as well. Why would it state that?

Why wouldn’t those verses mention the saints, it’s just the same as in Philipians 4: 21-22. (these are fellow believers, alive and in the church at that time):

21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar’s household.
**23 **The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Claude Kenneson:
Isn’t Rev. 5:1-8 a depiction of what is going on in heaven including the saints praying to the Lamb, Jesus? Whom do you suppose they’re praying for?

It doesn’t say that the saints are praying here at all.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

[Leeann]

Jesus came to earth through a woman (Mary). In God’s plan she was indispensable. She was special and unique. Why, then, are you saying that one cannot go through Mary to get to Jesus, when it is through Mary that we got Jesus, in the first place?

Mary was indeed blessed and favoured by God. God needed a woman (human) to fulfil His plan and Mary did faithfully and dutifully fulfilled the role that God had for her. But Jesus, nor the Apostles ever encouraged or taught or preached that it was necessary or even beneficial in anyway whatsoever to go to/through Mary in prayer to get to Jesus. (while she was with them on this earth - or after her death - (if you believed she died or not…I don’t know).

However - the Apostles did teach/preach about Jesus and after HIS death pointed them to HIM and taught that HE was willing, able and accessible!

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Why wouldn’t those verses mention the saints, it’s just the same as in Philipians 4: 21-22. (these are fellow believers, alive and in the church at that time):

21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar’s household.
**23 **The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

It doesn’t say that the saints are praying here at all.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

No, it is not the same as in Phil. It’s not talking about the saints who are still on earth. It’s talking about approaching Mount Zion, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem, ANGELS, the HEAVENLY assembly, GOD the judge, the SPIRITS of the saints and the MEDIATOR, who are all now in heaven and not on earth.

The prayers of the saints does not mean they are praying? Huh? And, unlike, Jon, who doesn’t think we should pray to Jesus, we see that that’s exactly what they are doing. And, all the action is taking place in heaven.

 

[onenow1]

Hi Leeann and welcome back !

Have a few questions for you in regard to intercession, please bear with me, maybe you can elaborate or are more gifted then I ?

1.Would the Gospels even exist without Blessed Mary ?

1. Don’t we have to first believe the Apostles,and the stories they tell about Jesus, before we even begin to believe Jesus is indeed God ?
2. Wouldn’t the story of Jesus in fact the entire bible be an intercessory prayer of the writers so we may believe? A love story from God using persons as intercessors.

John 19: 26-27,When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple
whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
Peace,onenow1

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

It doesn’t say that the saints are praying here at all.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Also, what does Rev. 8:3 mean? “Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.”

Again, where is this action taking place if not heaven?

If prayers of humans are to ALWAYS go to God or Jesus directly, why are there 24 elders (former human leaders) and angels acting as intermediaries?

 

[ron77nyc]

I think we were discussing the impropriety or propriety of praying to Jesus. Was Stephen addressing Jesus in prayer or not? Also, what does it mean to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus if not praying to Him? In Rev. 4 the Father receives adoration; in Rev. 5 the Son receives the same adoration. They both receive the same honor. John 5:23 So, I fail to see why it is o.k. to pray to the Father and not to the Son.

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Jesus. I’m saying Jesus taught us to pray to the Father so that’s what I do. I also said these are my opinions. I have no authority to tell people how to pray but I do believe there is a difference between asking someone to intercede for us and praying directly to that person. Praying directly to someone means you have decided the person being prayed to has some authority to grant your request. A good example of what I’m saying would be the Litany of the Saints.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray for us.
Saint Michael,
Pray for us.
Holy angels of God,
Pray for us.
Saint Joseph,
Pray for us.
Saint John the Baptist,
Pray for us.
Saint Peter and Saint Paul,
Pray for us.

We are asking God the Father and Jesus to have mercy on us because they have the power to judge us. We are asking the saints to pray for us only.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Jesus. I’m saying Jesus taught us to pray to the Father so that’s what I do. I also said these are my opinions. I have no authority to tell people how to pray but I do believe there is a difference between asking someone to intercede for us and praying directly to that person. Praying directly to someone means you have decided the person being prayed to has some authority to grant your request. A good example of what I’m saying would be the Litany of the Saints.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray for us.
Saint Michael,
Pray for us.
Holy angels of God,
Pray for us.
Saint Joseph,
Pray for us.
Saint John the Baptist,
Pray for us.
Saint Peter and Saint Paul,
Pray for us.

We are asking God the Father and Jesus to have mercy on us because they have the power to judge us. We are asking the saints to pray for us only.

Well, I pray to both the Father and the Son.

Now take for instance, in that prayer, where it states “Holy angels of God, pray for us.” How could the holy angels do that unless we invoke them? And clearly from Scripture, we can do that. Psalm 103:20-23 The point is that it is not wrong to petition angels in heaven or other Christians here on earth or in heaven. The petition ultimately ends up with Jesus and the Father. I just have a problem with saying that the only way prayer can come to Jesus or the Father is directly. I think, not all the time.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not saying everyone has to do it my way but if Mary says do whatever Jesus tells you and Jesus tells us to pray to the Father then we should do exactly that. It’s my opinion and only my opinion that we do have intercessors in heavenly realms and we don’t need to tell them how to do their job. God knows what we need before we even ask. Call me narrow minded if you will but there is nothing wrong with simplicity. The faith was never supposed to be so complicated.

I don’t find it a “complication” to ask others to pray for me. I find it comforting. God intended for the whole body to work together and all the parts to complement one another. I think this point is made very clear in the scripture. Your statement makes it seem like asking for the intercession of others is not “praying to God”. When they went to Mary about the wine, and she took their problem to her Son, do you think she was not “praying to God”?

Jesus is God. Wouldn’t it be great if I could explain the trinity?

No. I think this is one of the stumbling blocks of the Western mind. Mysteries just need to be left as such sometimes.

Stephen was talking to Jesus because he knew Jesus had all power and authority because Jesus created everything with God the Father. No other heavenly being has all power and authority. He created Mary. That is why it is wrong for the Pope to put the world in anyone’s hands but God the Father.

One does not have to have “all power and authority” to be able to effectively intercede for others. This is an example of the anti -catholic statements that you make that make you appear non-catholic.

If the God of the universe trusted Mary enough to place His Divine Son in her hands, and if Jesus Himself trusted her and Joseph enough to go with them, and submit to their authority, then how is placing the world in her hand problematic? You have judged the Pope, and have made yourself appear ignorant and small minded in the process!

This is very encouraging. The Pope preached the gospel yesterday.

zenit.org/article-24367?l=english
Pontiff Urges Reign of Christ in Hearts

The Pope has been living and preaching the gospel for 70 some years. Where have you been?

Blessed John XXIII (1958-63) Did many good things and certainly lived the Gospel message but was not a preacher or teacher of the Gospel.

Paul VI (1963-78) was a Marian pope, visiting Marian shrines and issuing three Marian encyclicals. He didn’t emphasize faith in Jesus.

John Paul I (1978) Died a mysterious death

John Paul II (1978-2005) Wanted to proclaim a 5th Marian dogma to make Mary a co-redemptrix. He didn’t emphasize faith in Jesus.

I don’t know what happened prior to 1958. I was busy learning to roller skate and ride my tricycle.

Maybe you should go back to it? Your mind appears to be functioning at about that stage. Only a child would make such judgements about others in such a manner.

 

[guanophore]

Blessed John XXIII (1958-63) Did many good things and certainly lived the Gospel message but was not a preacher or teacher of the Gospel.

Paul VI (1963-78) was a Marian pope, visiting Marian shrines and issuing three Marian encyclicals. He didn’t emphasize faith in Jesus.

John Paul I (1978) Died a mysterious death

John Paul II (1978-2005) Wanted to proclaim a 5th Marian dogma to make Mary a co-redemptrix. He didn’t emphasize faith in Jesus.

**I don’t know what happened prior to 1958. I was busy learning to roller skate and ride my tricycle./**QUOTE]

Maybe you should go back to it? Your mind appears to be functioning at about that stage. Only a child would make such judgements about others in such a manner.

 

[Leeann]

Claude Kenneson Post # 941
But Heb. 13:22-24 doesn’t say that the only one you approach is the Mediator; it mentions the saints as well. Why would it state that?

**Response Leeann: **
Why wouldn’t those verses mention the saints, it’s just the same as in Philipians 4: 21-22. (these are fellow believers, alive and in the church at that time):

Hebrews 13: 22-24

21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar’s household.
23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Response Claude Kenneson:
No, it is not the same as in Phil. It’s not talking about the saints who are still on earth. It’s talking about approaching Mount Zion, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem, ANGELS, the HEAVENLY assembly, GOD the judge, the SPIRITS of the saints and the MEDIATOR, who are all now in heaven and not on earth.

I believe you meant Heb. 12:22-24.

Claude Kenneson:
The prayers of the saints does not mean they are praying? Huh? And, unlike, Jon, who doesn’t think we should pray to Jesus, we see that that’s exactly what they are doing. And, all the action is taking place in heaven.

When you read the whole chapter of Hebrews 12 (including verses 22-24) – there is no reference made to the “prayers of the saints” or any indication that those believers who were being addressed at that time (or now) should pray to/through them.