Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
As I stated in a previous post to someone…maybe you, but I’m not sure…with regards to that particular quote to Peter – the Catholic Church bases it on “Peter” as being the rock…(you’ve seen all the translations,etc,etc,….) – I believe and many others do, that Jesus was referring to the “statement of faith and belief” in who Jesus was(is), that Peter made in the verses just prior to that. That is what Jesus would be building His Church upon, not on “Peter” himself.

mercygate:
And you say WE believe things just because we are taught a certain way?
We do not separate Peter from his confession because grammatically, it cannot be done. Historically it was never done until somebody started doing linguistic contortions to make the verse separate Peter from his confession and Peter from Our Lord’s promise.

If you go to St. Peter’s crypt in the Vatican, you will see inscribed in the arch above it the words: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” It’s not like the Catholic Church thinks that Peter is somehow above his own confession.

Well that’s good, because Peter himself acknowledged who he was:

1Peter 1:1, 5:1-3

1:1 - Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ – and – 5:1-3

[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
[3] Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well 2 Maccabees isn’t considered by all to be scripture.

You’re right. Someone had a belief that was not compatible with it - and then didn’t consider it to be scripture. Quite convenient, eh?

 

[Leeann]

**AshleyBelle:**Unless you believe the holy spirit is guiding and leading you in matters of interpretting scripture, and not the millions of other believers who have interpretted it differently?

You don’t believe that the Holy Spirit and the scriptures “go together” for you as an individual, that somehow the Holy Spirit only works within the guidelines and under the authority of the Catholic Church?

AshleyBelle:
Can you provide an explanation for why we need to interpret it the way you do?

Only if you want to be able to see God’s truth.

AshleyBelle:
The way that is fairly recent in comparison to the way the church has taught for 2000 years?

But they haven’t.

Peter himself never considered himself anything more than, an apostle of Jesus Christ, He knew who the “foundation of the church” was built upon…Christ.

1Peter 1:1, 5:1-3

1:1 - Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ – and – 5:1-3

[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
[3] Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

AshleyBelles:
Your posts have all been stated in a very defensive tone. It’s not that we think you’re afraid of Mary, or the church, or any of us. But it does seem you are simply afraid of the POSSIBILITY that you could be wrong.

I’m happy and secure in my beliefs, no fear, perhaps the “very defensive tone” is only from your own perspective for some reason….maybe you’re projecting your own feelings?

I have considerably more responses and posts to make in replying to posts than you do at this time, so I just try and key in as clearly and succinctly as I can, in the time I can afford. It may come across as abrupt or direct, but it really is just trying to use ‘word economy’.

AshleyBelle:
Why are you afraid? You obviously have a great, strong faith! You’ve made your love for Christ very apparent in these posts! So, why are you afraid to DEFEND your faith?

I don’t feel I have to defend my faith….it’s not in peril.

AshleyBelle:
I found, as a protestant that I also became very defensive when asked to really stand up and defend what I believed and WHY I believed it. I dreaded conversations that forced me to logically explain away my ideas and beliefs. They made sense to me, why should I have to sort them out for someone else? They’re the TRUTH aren’t they? I thought that catholics were too busy being “logical” and thinking about it too hard…they had too much of an “analytical” faith…when it SHOULD be so much more simple!

That must have been a really terrible experience for you.
But I’m not you.

AshleyBelle:
But why does faith need to contradict reason? Should faith contradict reason?

I don’t know AshleyBelle – those are *your *questions – not mine?

AshleyBelle:
I’m willing to accept your interpretation if you can prove to me it is the truth. I’m willing to renounce the Catholic faith if it truly is not the faith Christ established.
Are you willing to do the same if truth is not what you presupposed it to be?

The only truth I know, is what I already possess and am quite content with, my communion in spirit with my Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour/and the Holy Spirit.

Would you really think that I would give that up for anyone?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

A different gospel altogether, not what was originally set out by the Jesus or the Apostles when they established His early churches.

itsjustdave:
Unless you think your interpretation of the Gospel is infallible, I have to go with the authentic interpretation of the Gospel which has existed in every century since the advent of Christ, and reject the novel interpretations of some Protestants, which in fact are disputed by other Protestants.

Well, if you are praying to Mary and the saints, you are “not going” with His or the Apostles “authentic gospel”.

As they never taught that or encouraged that as being necessary in order for salvation.

The Psalmist (Ps 103:20-21; 148:1-2), invokes the heavenly hosts in prayer.
Those are hymns…,not prayers.
So too does the author of the the book of Daniel (Dan 3:58, 86).
Could you check those verses/chapter reference for me, I couldn’t find them.
In fact, St. John spoke to the saints in heaven according to the book of Revelation, while he was “in the spirit” on the Lord’s day. So, I too find it a pious Christian practice, in accord with Sacred Scripture and Tradition.

What exactly do you find a pious Christian practice?
Writing hymns?
Being transported to heaven and having a revelation as to the magnitude that John did?

What do these things have to do with praying to/through Mary?

Lastly, the Scripture tells us exactly who we turn to, and it is a “city of the living God”…

No they don’t tell us where to turn too – they tell us “where” we are as true and faithful believers – (see your own paragraph below )

Hebrew 12:22-24: “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, AND to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, AND to a judge who is God of all, AND to the spirits of just men made perfect, AND to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.”

Notice, the Bible says we have come to the angels AND saints AND God AND Jesus. It’s as if they are all one communion of saints that we have come to, all in communion with one another and with God. Scripture tells us who we have come to as Christians, and it is an entire city which does indeed include angels and saints in heaven, in communion with God, and Jesus who said, “he who rejects you rejects me” (Lk 10:16).

These verses in no way indicate that we are to pray to any of the assembly of the first-born, or to the spirits of just men made perfect or to angels obviously or to even God or to Jesus. They are establishing “where” we are now as true and faithful believers.

As for what Jesus said: ”he who rejects you, rejects me” – believers who truly believe and follow the message that they had to deliver when He sent them out – aren’t rejecting Him.

itsjustdave:
So, any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine, who I can and should turn to for help, because they too belong to the body of Christ, which is the source of my salvation.

Based on what? The Apostles’ and Jesus’ teachings and direction as in their authentic gospel message…or in the developed teachings of the Catholic Church?

 

[MarcoPolo]

To whom would the Apostles have pointed the Pope to….Mary….or Jesus?
[OR]

I have not read through all this…but did we not cover already that this is a false dichotomy. I must be poor at explaining how going to Mary IS being pointed to Jesus…just like asking your friend to pray for you IS being pointed to Jesus. If you can wrap your mind around that, then you’ve got it.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
??? - There’s nothing wrong with asking fellow believers to pray for us. James encouraged the early Christians to do so.

Because the Apostles never did it and never taught or advised any of the early Christians to do it and Jesus never mentioned it either.

merrickOWA:
Which is it, did James encourage believers to pray for one another or did the Apostles not teach this?

Have you read the book of James?

It’s very clear that he is speaking to the early Christian believers who were being persecuted and he encouraged them to pray for one another……right there and then…amongst themselves, to uphold one another in prayer.

merrickOWA:
If early believers were taught to pray for one another, once they died and went to heaven, did they forget that teaching?

They were never taught to pray to anyone in heaven…ever….they were told to pray amongst themselves…there and then…for one another….James and none of the Apostles mentioned to them that “if one of you dies…the rest of you can pray to them too in heaven”.

merrickOWA:
Why do you object to the idea that believers in HEAVEN can’t pray for us… but those on EARTH can.

Because Jesus and His Apostles never mentioned it…to any of the early Christians that they preached and taught too…nor in any of the gospel records later, or epistles that are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Such information would have been of great importance and assistance to the early Christians’ faith and endurance, especially due to the persecution their underwent. I don’t believe that Jesus or the Apostles would leave that information out.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

Well 2 Maccabees isn’t considered by all to be scripture.

Rueben:
You’re right. Someone had a belief that was not compatible with it - and then didn’t consider it to be scripture. Quite convenient, eh?

Referring to the Reformation ?– I was going back further – to the Jews themselves and Jesus/Apostles who never referred to certain books that they didn’t consider to be “scripture”.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
To whom would the Apostles have pointed the Pope to….Mary….or Jesus?

marcopolo:
I have not read through all this…but did we not cover already that this is a false dichotomy. I must be poor at explaining how going to Mary IS being pointed to Jesus…just like asking your friend to pray for you IS being pointed to Jesus. If you can wrap your mind around that, then you’ve got it.

Hi marco polo

I didn’t go back to check, but I know you did post back to me. I believe *you **did *cover that is was a false dichotomy - I didn’t agree with you.

What I can’t wrap my mind around, is that there is no indication from Jesus or His Apostles that this is a practice that should be followed at all – ever – or that it is necessary or beneficial in any way.

Jesus said to “Come to Me…(He didn’t mention going to Mary or anyone else)…His Apostles always pointed the early Christians to Him or God….never hinted at or mentioned to go to Mary (at any point – when she was alive – or after ) …this practice is a “later” development within the Catholic Church’s teachings.

 

[Leeann]

mercygate - thanks for the flowers!

 

[MarcoPolo]

What I can’t wrap my mind around, is that there is no indication from Jesus or His Apostles that this is a practice that should be followed at all – ever – or that it is necessary or beneficial in any way.

Jesus said to “Come to Me…(He didn’t mention going to Mary or anyone else)…His Apostles always pointed the early Christians to Him or God….never hinted at or mentioned to go to Mary (at any point – when she was alive – or after ) …this practice is a “later” development within the Catholic Church’s teachings.

The specifics of Mary’s Immaculate Conception or Assumption for instance are certainly later developments. I’d acknowledge that readily! Then again I fully believe in the development of doctrine and Tradition and the authority of the Church, and not sola scriptura (even though there are elusions to these teachings in this Scripture), so there’s the heart of the barrier…

But as to Scripture alone, when you say Jesus said “come to me”, surely you see many examples of people coming to the apostles or clamoring to see Peter (Acts 5:15) or going to “the elders” (James 5:14), among many, many examples. These are not done “instead” of Jesus. Because none of these detract from Jesus…but rather glorifies Him! In fact, if you spend time honoring Mary, you are side by side Jesus who is honoring His mother too! What a great way to unite with our Lord.

Good night!

 

[jfallaw]

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#I

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

Let’s put it this way. Let’s say you are Jesus (not trying to be blasphemous, just giving an example!) and I prayed to you for something, but you did not feel I was worthy of it. Then I prayed to your mother, who is with you in Heaven. The one who comforted you when you were sorrowful, who dried your tears when you were hurt, who tucked you in at night. (Remember, Jesus was fully human and experienced every human emotion). Then your mother came to you and asked you to please grant my prayer, even though I was unworthy. Would you do it for her? That is the way Catholics view Mary. As a mother and an helper. Obviously the Pope knows we can ask anything of Jesus- but he also knows that if Jesus does not deem us worthy, then we can turn to His mother. Protestants don’t often seem to realize that in Catholicism, Jesus ALWAYS comes first. It is such a fundamental belief that there is really no point in explaining it to Catholics who know their faith. But we must realize that Protestants usually know next to nothing about the Catholic faith, and that it might APPEAR as though we are turning to Mary first…

 

[jfallaw]

Have you read the book of James?

It’s very clear that he is speaking to the early Christian believers who were being persecuted and he encouraged them to pray for one another……right there and then…amongst themselves, to uphold one another in prayer.

They were never taught to pray to anyone in heaven…ever….they were told to pray amongst themselves…there and then…for one another….James and none of the Apostles mentioned to them that “if one of you dies…the rest of you can pray to them too in heaven”.

Because Jesus and His Apostles never mentioned it…to any of the early Christians that they preached and taught too…nor in any of the gospel records later, or epistles that are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Such information would have been of great importance and assistance to the early Christians’ faith and endurance, especially due to the persecution their underwent. I don’t believe that Jesus or the Apostles would leave that information out.

As long as you believe that the Bible is the sum of God’s Word, then you will never understand. Sad but true. Catholics believe that God continued to speak to us through His appointed leaders and their successors. We are not ashamed of this belief and we will not stop believing it. You do not have to believe it. We believe that it is God’s desire that ALL who are worthy will get to heaven- even those who are not members of the church. But it’s so much easier if you are a part of the church as Christ established it.

 

[rbarcia]

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Psalm 62:1
My soul finds rest in God alone;
my salvation comes from him.

Psalm 62:5
Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him.

Psalm 72:18
Praise be to the LORD God, the God of Israel, who alone does marvelous deeds.

Isaiah 26:13
O LORD, our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but your name alone do we honor.

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Exodus 20:4

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

[guanophore]

Let us not forget that Christ is the cornerstone, not Peter.

I don’t believe anyone has ever claimed that Peter is the cornerstone…

  20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:20)

It is true that Peter means stone, however he was not the foundation stone because it is Christ who is the foundation stone. And Peter is just one of the stones that stood on top of Christ.Lastly, according to the Catholic authorities, Peter (and his successors, the Popes) was made by Christ the head of the Church. This teaching is clearly false based on the truth written on the Holy Bible, because the true Church of Christ is headed by Christ Himself.

It seems clear that you know little as little about foundation stones as you do Catholic teaching.

A foundation is level. When Jesus built the Apostles and Prophets into Himself as the cornerstone, He grafted them into Himself to make a level base upon which the church was to be built. The other foundation stones do not replace the corner, or capstone. Of course Christ is head of the Church! This does not stop being a fact because He also extends some of HIs authority to others. Neither does He cease to be the cornerstone because He has brought others into the foundation with HImself.

If the RCC claims to be built on Peter that is fine. But you dont have the market cornered. What of the other apostles and prophets?

Contrary to the Protestant fruit of dividing and separating, all the Apostolic Churches believe that the Apostles are in union with Peter, who is in union with Christ. We believe that Jesus’ prayer is answered for this unity, and those correctly joined to the Head are in unity with one another.

Please dont say there was no other believers in the past, the RCC made a hobby of crushing anyone that didnt see things there way.

Actually, the Roman Rite of the Church was one of the later Rites to develop, and no Christians were “crushing” anyone prior to Constantine.

 

[onenow1]

As long as you believe that the Bible is the sum of God’s Word, then you will never understand. Sad but true. Catholics believe that God continued to speak to us through His appointed leaders and their successors. We are not ashamed of this belief and we will not stop believing it. You do not have to believe it. We believe that it is God’s desire that ALL who are worthy will get to heaven- even those who are not members of the church. But it’s so much easier if you are a part of the church as Christ established it.

Hi, fallaw, The some of Jesus teaching in the NT has been calculated to be approx. 18 days out of three years. I remember reading this somewhere ? Anyway I believe that’s why John says if all were to be written of, all the books in the world could not contain them .
The reflection on Luke’s writings in the gospel, about Mary should give sufficient pause to any who doubt, that Mary’s blood ran through and nourished our Saviour Jesus Christ.

especially this; Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”[The messenger of God did not say Hail Mary he said Hail full of Grace and we must remember this is God speaking to Mary] !
And this: Luke 1: 46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifiesthe Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

Peace,onenow1

 

[guanophore]

However, earlier in that same section he states:…If we can get rid of the idea that the text has ***any reference to the Roman Church or to the papacy, we shall lose interest in such attempts to remove what has been felt to be its awkwardness.

Certainly there is nothing in the context to suggest Rome or the papacy***.

(Kaiser, Davids, Bruce, Brauch, The Hard Sayings of the Bible, Intervarsity Press, Downers Grove, IL, 1996, p 383).
And toward the end the section:…Here, then, Luke may be held to provide a commentary on Matthew’s record by showing how, in pursuance of Jesus’ words, the keys of the kingdom and loosing was exercised in the primitive church in preaching, discipline and legislation.

(ibid., p 386)Bruce et. al., deny the passage provides any support for the Roman Papacy.

I’m certain Schweizer would echo that.

This certainly makes sense, since the Roman Rite and the Papacy did not yet exist.

I agree, looking back at this passage through the lens if history really does make it awkward.

Bud, guys responding to Bud – please take this to another thread; Leann owns this one!

Sorry, I came to this after the fact. I would think that Leeann would appreciate Bud. Does he not embody and express the same views she has? Has she not stated from the beginning that the Catholic Church of today is unrecognizeable from the one in the NT?

 

[guanophore]

When did Mary die?

How do you know she did?

Did she outlive the Apostles?
Quite a few Christian saints died in the early church times of persecution, even though they weren’t recognized by the Catholic Church…they were Christian saints.

What makes you say they were not? The catalogue of the Christain saints begins with Dismas, who died on the cross next to Christ.

We can see from the early archeological evidence that Catholics asked the intercession of the saints from the first. St. Stephen, as you can imagine, was very popular.

In any event……if this practice of praying to Christian “saints” in heaven was such an important thing for all believers, for all time, would Jesus not make mention of it, out of His compassion and love for ‘all those who would come after and believe on the Apostles’ words’.

Jesus was clear that certain things would not happen, or would not be understood until later. He stated that the wedding guests should not fast while the bridegroom was with them, but later they would. He made it clear that the Apostles would drink of His cup.

Yes…but what has that got to praying to/through them or anyone else in heaven.

'Jesus taught and lived that the saints are alive to Him. He showed the Apostles this in very certain terms. He taugth that members of the Body are not separated from Him, or one another, even in death. Knowing this, why would the Apostles STOP asking the prayers of Mary or others after they passed from here to His presence?

Well 2 Maccabees isn’t considered by all to be scripture.

Jesus is not considered by all to be God, either, but you can see that it makes no impact on the Truth.

Jesus and His Apostles used and quoted from the Septuagint, and that is sufficient for us to consider it Scripture.

But what is foreign to the early Christian faith that the Apostles were encouraging, is the idea of “praying to Mary or saints”…they never taught that.

You are assuming this based on the minute evidence found in the NT. When the early Church wanted Mary’s prayer, they simply went to her and asked her. She was there with them in the upper room.

Well, if the Apostles actually did spend longer time with Mary and actually believed what you’ve posted above, and valued it as something that Jesus himself had instructed them to do, you would think that they would do it…share this information with the early Christians as they established the churches and in the gospel books that were recorded later and the epistles that they circulated amongst the churches right there and then…but they didn’t. They always pointed to God –Jesus in times of encouragement or dire need.

The error here is in assuming that Mary does not always point to Godd, and that Mary is somehow separate or not included in the will of God. Mary eternally says “do whatever He tells you”.

 

[guanophore]

Well…that’s the claim anyway.

What scriptural references, with regards to the praying to Mary?

I am curious, Leeann. Why do you think Jesus made sure the Apostles were present when He went up to have his little chat with 'ol Mo and the passenger of the burning chariot? Could He not have done this in private? Why was it important for them to see?

Why do you think it is less likely for Mary to be present that Mo and Elijah?

Doctrines are extremely important.

I agree. It is also extremely important that they be received from an Apostolic source, to prevent one from embracing a “different gospel”.

By a church’s doctrines, you can tell if they truly believe in the gospel message that Jesus and His Apostles taught and preached and if they adhere to it, or take away from it, or add to it.

How could you know this, since you have rejected the persons to whom Jesus committed the Truth?

I’ve never considered Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons as Christians – they don’t have the same “Jesus” as we do.

I agree, and even these things cannot be determined based on the partial revelation that is present in Scripture. That is why it is that they use the same scripture we do to arrive at their doctrines. The Scripture was never meant to be separated from the Apostolic Teaching that produced it. The further it is separated,t he more bizarre the results.

Really? The Pope dedicating “the world” to Mary is focusing on Jesus Christ?

Absolutely. The Pope knows that Mary says “do whatever He tells you”. Jesus wants the whole world dedicated to Himself. Therefore, through the intercession of Mary, He fuflills God’s will.

It is not necessary to separate them. However, if this bothers you, get up and dedicate the whole world to Jesus right now yourself! That should fix it.

 

[Coder]

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

To the O.P. :

Hi Leeann, the Pope was quoting Bartolo to apply a spiritual concept to a current crisis. It seems you are trying to find a fault with the Church that Jesus Himself founded using these individual statements. In order to have the fullness of truth you must understand that Mary is an integral part of Christian spirituality. This is because Jesus said so. Jesus from the cross told the apostle that Mary is his mother. He meant it and you must know that. If Mary is mother of the apostles then she is our mother.

Also, do you think that the Pope does not pray to Jesus? Of course he does! Do you think that the Pope does not pray the Our Father? Of course he does!

In fact, I think that Mary’s prayers for us help us to communicate better to the Father when we pray directly to Him! Why don’t Protestants teach that?! Could it be darkness?! Who brought this darkness? I think it was the father of all lies.

Come to the Church that Jesus formed!

 

[Good_Fella]

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Psalm 62:1
My soul finds rest in God alone;
my salvation comes from him.

Psalm 62:5
Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him.

Psalm 72:18
Praise be to the LORD God, the God of Israel, who alone does marvelous deeds.

Isaiah 26:13
O LORD, our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but your name alone do we honor.

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Exodus 20:4

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

First of all then, I ask that supplications, prayers, and petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our saviour, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4

Then Abraham drew nearer to him and said: “Will you sweep the innocent away with the guilty? Suppose there are fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it?. Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty, so that the innocent and guilty be treated alike. Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?”
Genesis 18, 24-25

But Moses implored the Lord, his God, saying, “Why, O Lord, should your wrath blaze up against your own people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with such great power and with so strong a hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent he brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains and exterminate them from the face of the earth?’ Let your blazing wrath die down; relent in punishing your people.”
Exodus 32, 11-12

Then Bethsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. “There is one small favour I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother,” the king said to her. “I will not refuse you.”
1 Kings 2, 10-20

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2. 3-5

The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit.
James 5, 16-18

When he took it (the scroll) the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders had a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
Revelation 5, 8

“No one can serve two masters. He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”
Matthew 6, 24

I hope you aren’t suggesting that Catholics serve Mary and despise God because we ask her to pray for us at her Son’s right hand, joining our prayers with hers and His to the Father. By the way, Paul doesn’t use the Greek word ‘monos’ for “one” in his first letter to Timothy 2:5. You misunderstand what he is actually saying to us. The apostle doesn’t deny the role of human factual and covenantal mediators (Moses) who serve as advocates to the people of God and prayerfully intercede on their behalf. We have a better chance of receiving God’s favour if we approach him on his terms, not ours. We Catholics feel safer by going through the Queen Mother with our petitions to the King of kings.

PAX