Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[jfallaw]

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Psalm 62:1
My soul finds rest in God alone;
my salvation comes from him.

Psalm 62:5
Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him.

Psalm 72:18
Praise be to the LORD God, the God of Israel, who alone does marvelous deeds.

Isaiah 26:13
O LORD, our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but your name alone do we honor.

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Exodus 20:4

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Catholics believe all those things, too. You seem to be implying that we believe salvation comes from anyone but Christ, and you are wrong. Bother to read the Catechism and you would see that. As for the ‘idols’, you must be talking about statues. We do not worship statues or saints or Mary, we worship God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and ONLY God. Do some research that consists of something other than reading Jack Chick comics. Oh and Protestant churches almost all have a ‘graven image’ right behind the pastor- it’s called a cross. Me believing you worshipped that would be as stupid as you believing I worship statues.

 

[jfallaw]

Hi, fallaw, The some of Jesus teaching in the NT has been calculated to be approx. 18 days out of three years. I remember reading this somewhere ? Anyway I believe that’s why John says if all were to be written of, all the books in the world could not contain them .
The reflection on Luke’s writings in the gospel, about Mary should give sufficient pause to any who doubt, that Mary’s blood ran through and nourished our Saviour Jesus Christ.

especially this; Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”[The messenger of God did not say Hail Mary he said Hail full of Grace and we must remember this is God speaking to Mary] !
And this: Luke 1: 46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifiesthe Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

Peace,onenow1

 

[GladCatholic]

. . .
First, you try to seperate prayers to Mary apart from prayers to Jesus Christ, which is why you interpret the Pope’s prayer as such. You break this prayer down into an EITHER/OR scenario. If you’re praying to Mary, you’re not praying to Jesus, and vice versa. Catholics, however, do not understand prayers to Mary as you present them.

Praying to Mary IS praying to Jesus. And praying to Jesus IS praying to Mary. Mary only holds any significance or power BECAUSE she is the Mother of God, therefore her position as Queen of Heaven is dependant upon Jesus’ position as God in the Flesh and King of Heaven. So, if we are turning to Mary, and asking for her prayers to Jesus on our behalf, it is already logically assumed we are turning to Jesus for aid, since Mary only has any power because of the authority granted to her by Jesus. We also believe that because Mary is assumed into heaven and occupies the Queenship of Heaven, that Mary’s will is perfectly united to Jesus’ will. Mary’s will never be out of harmony with the will of God.

Therefore, if the Pope says “to whom other shall we turn”…there is no other to turn too. Turning to Mary means turning to Jesus at the same time. If Mary will not hear us, who’s will is perfect and always in accordance with her Divine Son’s, then Jesus would not hear us either. In the same manner, If Jesus would not hear us, then neither would the Virgin Mother of God. . . .

I am Catholic and I love Christ and His Church (wanted to preface with where I’m coming from). There is nothing the Church teaches that I do not believe. The above post is absolutely the best explanation on the Church’s teachings about Mary than I have ever seen before. I do not have what one would call a huge devotion to the Mother of God, and I believe I probably neglect her, but this post has given me an incredible amount to ponder!

Thank you for this post.
Glad

 

[rbarcia]

First of all then, I ask that supplications, prayers, and petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our saviour, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4

Paul is praying to God. What is your point.

Then Abraham drew nearer to him and said: “Will you sweep the innocent away with the guilty? Suppose there are fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it?. Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty, so that the innocent and guilty be treated alike. Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?”
Genesis 18, 24-25

God was a friend to Abraham. He came down to Abraham before he destroyed Sodom. He is asking God directly.

But Moses implored the Lord, his God, saying, “Why, O Lord, should your wrath blaze up against your own people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with such great power and with so strong a hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent he brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains and exterminate them from the face of the earth?’ Let your blazing wrath die down; relent in punishing your people.”
Exodus 32, 11-12

The Lord spoke directly to Moses and Moses to God. Moses is living.

Then Bethsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. “There is one small favour I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother,” the king said to her. “I will not refuse you.”
1 Kings 2, 10-20

This one is the worst thing to use. For King Solomon heard the request and then he went on to kill Adonijah.

21 So she said, “Let Abishag the Shunammite be given in marriage to your brother Adonijah.”

22 King Solomon answered his mother, “Why do you request Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? You might as well request the kingdom for him—after all, he is my older brother—yes, for him and for Abiathar the priest and Joab son of Zeruiah!”

23 Then King Solomon swore by the LORD : “May God deal with me, be it ever so severely, if Adonijah does not pay with his life for this request! 24 And now, as surely as the LORD lives—he who has established me securely on the throne of my father David and has founded a dynasty for me as he promised—Adonijah shall be put to death today!” 25 So King Solomon gave orders to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he struck down Adonijah and he died.

But the king did refuse her?

Solomon did refuse her.

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2. 3-5

Mary is alive here. This has nothing to do with intercessionary prayer.

Luke 11

27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

28He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

 

[rbarcia]

The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit.
James 5, 16-18

So live righteously.

When he took it (the scroll) …
Revelation 5, 8

And, there is nothing here about the content of the prayers. Their prayers were to the Lord.

"No one can serve two masters. …
Matthew 6, 24

This has to do with the love of money.

I hope you aren’t suggesting that Catholics serve Mary…

PAX

No where does it say Mary sits at Jesus’ right hand. Human mediators were needed in the old testament, because man could not approach God.

Hebrews 1

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Using old testament examples do not show anything about the role of Mary. Because we can boldly go directly to the throne of grace through Christ. Not go through Mary, then the Son, then the Father, etc…

Hebrews 4

4 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 8

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

The veil broke from top to bottom, and now we have direct access to the throne of God through Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

 

[rbarcia]

Catholics believe all those things, too. You seem to be implying that we believe salvation comes from anyone but Christ, and you are wrong. Bother to read the Catechism and you would see that. As for the ‘idols’, you must be talking about statues. We do not worship statues or saints or Mary, we worship God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and ONLY God. Do some research that consists of something other than reading Jack Chick comics. Oh and Protestant churches almost all have a ‘graven image’ right behind the pastor- it’s called a cross. Me believing you worshipped that would be as stupid as you believing I worship statues.

I learned about Jack Chick from this forum.

I learned that Catholics rely on Mary also for their salvation from the catechism book you speak of.

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession** continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . .** Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

It cannot be any clearer.

Also the catechism book I learned that prayers to statues (which you claim is the same as cross in my church, but we don’t pray to the physical cross nor direct prayers to it. It is not the same thing)

1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented.

477 At the same time the Church has always acknowledged that in the body of Jesus “we see our God made visible and so are caught up in love of the God we cannot see.” The individual characteristics of Christ’s body express the divine person of God’s Son. He has made the features of his human body his own, to the point that they can be venerated when portrayed in a holy image, for the believer “who venerates the icon is venerating in it the person of the one depicted”.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone.

1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented.

But the Bible is clear (This is but a very small subset.)

Leviticus 19:4
" 'Do not turn to idols or make gods of cast metal for yourselves. I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 29:17
You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold.

Psalm 31:6
I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the LORD.

Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols— worship him, all you gods!

Isaiah 42:8
"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

Jeremiah 32:34
They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it.

Jonah 2:8
"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.

1 John 5:21
Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.

1 Thessalonians 1:9
for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,

2 Corinthians 6:16
What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

 

[AshleyBelle]

You don’t believe that the Holy Spirit and the scriptures “go together” for you as an individual, that somehow the Holy Spirit only works within the guidelines and under the authority of the Catholic Church?

Once again, you assume that we believe God is somehow “confined” and then WE are somehown “confined” by the Church… When it is quite the opposite. We believe the CHURCH is the Body of Christ… Truth is REVEALED through Christ, through the church to us

We believe that Jesus chose to call certain men, and teach THEM the understanding of the Scriptures. He did NOT teach the crowd the meaning of his words… Whenever you see Jesus speaking in parables, He is speaking to the crowds! When you see him EXPLAINING His parables, He is speaking directly and only to His apostles.

Jesus chose to do this, not us, not the Catholic Church, but Jesus Himself. We are following the example HE set for us.

Only if you want to be able to see God’s truth.

So, you're saying that in order to see God's truth, I need to see the scriptures the way YOU do?

Please show me where the scriptures say Leeann teaches all truth without error and I will follow you!

I follow the Church because she teaches with the authority of the Apostles, and the Apostles teach with the authority given to them by Christ.

But they haven’t.

Peter himself never considered himself anything more than, an apostle of Jesus Christ, He knew who the “foundation of the church” was built upon…Christ.

.

Peter knew that the church was indeed built upon Christ:)  He also knew that the church was built on the apostles and prophets, as Scripture tells us:

Eph.2:19
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

The Church is built on Christ, AND the Apostles, AND, the prophets.  It states it very clearly!  And if you want to claim once again that in the passage where Christ calls Peter the "Rock" that he isn't really giving Peter any authority...I have to ask again, why is YOUR interpretation correct, unless you claim to know all spiritual truths without error?

I’m happy and secure in my beliefs, no fear, perhaps the “very defensive tone” is only from your own perspective for some reason….maybe you’re projecting your own feelings?

 My feeling is that no matter what any of us say, you are only going to listen to what you want to listen to. You are not trying to understand what Catholics believe..you are simply trying to tell us that we are WRONG, because you KNOW we're wrong...and if we defend  our belief, and ask you to defend YOUR position, you simply say you don't need to , because your'e RIGHT!

I have considerably more responses and posts to make in replying to posts than you do at this time, so I just try and key in as clearly and succinctly as I can, in the time I can afford. It may come across as abrupt or direct, but it really is just trying to use ‘word economy’.

Being direct and to the point, is different from always returning to "I'm right and your'e wrong, and it's not worth my time to explain why!"

If you’re here to convince us of your truth…then take the time to CONVINCE us! Otherwise I’m to assume you’re not really here to help us with our salvation or to understand truth…you’re just here to tell us we’re wrong.

I don’t feel I have to defend my faith….it’s not in peril.

1 Pet. 3:15

But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them,
15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope,

We are all defending what we believe in. Why will you not do the same?

That must have been a really terrible experience for you.
But I’m not you.

  You're not me, but you are doing EXACTLY what I used to do!  You have a very strong faith which is truly a gift from God! But you use that faith as an excuse not to listen when God may very well be trying to REACH you in ways that you're not ready to hear.   And if you're not ready to hear, then nothing anybody tells you on these forums will matter. Because your faith is more in the fact that you're RIGHT, than in listening to what God may have yet to reveal for you.

I don’t know AshleyBelle – those are *your *questions – not mine?

Those were my questions when I learned that faith is not about being RIGHT… it’s about following God and letting God lead beyond my comfort zone. I didn’t listen to ideas about the catholic church and Mary because they made me uncomfortable. Catholics praying to Mary??? That is so WRONG! Why can’t they see it?? I KNOW it’s wrong, because nobody prays to Mary in the Bible! I have Jesus, why would I want to ADD anything to my beliefs??? Those poor Catholics! Dont’ they know the Jesus wants to have a relationship directly with them???

To even FATHOM that Catholics could be practicing their faith more fully than I was, out of sheer devotion to Christ, was OUTSIDE MY comfort zone. So I believed they were wrong, and nothing they said could convince me otherwise.

(continued in post 2)

 

[AshleyBelle]

(cont)

There’s a quote from Kimberly Hahn that had a HUGE impact on me personally…
She was a faithful protestant, and before she even considered catholicism, she believed this:
“I realized that in matters of faith, you can only be moving forward, or moving backwards. Because you can NOT stand still. I prayed that God would help me to continue forward!”

The only truth I know, is what I already possess and am quite content with, my communion in spirit with my Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour/and the Holy Spirit.

Would you really think that I would give that up for anyone?

Nobody would ask you to give that up! If they do they are NOT from God!  You have a strong faith, and you love Jesus!  But are you content sitting still? Do you want to only know the little bit that you know, and not seek to know Him more?

Being "content" is all fine and good! But Jesus doesn't WANT us to just be "content!" He wants us to grow in truth and love!  You say you have a communion with Him in spirit.. What if you could have a TRUE communion with Him? What if you could know Him so intimately that you truely SHARED fully in everything that He is? What if Christ Himself humbled Himself for you, out of His great love, so that you could share with Him, body, blood, soul and divinity?  Would you just stick to "a spiritual" communion? Or would you RUN to Him to embrace Him?

It was CHRIST who lifted the protestant veil from my eyes. It was PERFECT communion with Christ which called me, through the Catholic church!

 

[guanophore]

This one is the worst thing to use. For King Solomon heard the request and then he went on to kill Adonijah.

21 So she said, “Let Abishag the Shunammite be given in marriage to your brother Adonijah.”

22 King Solomon answered his mother, “Why do you request Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? You might as well request the kingdom for him—after all, he is my older brother—yes, for him and for Abiathar the priest and Joab son of Zeruiah!”

23 Then King Solomon swore by the LORD : “May God deal with me, be it ever so severely, if Adonijah does not pay with his life for this request! 24 And now, as surely as the LORD lives—he who has established me securely on the throne of my father David and has founded a dynasty for me as he promised—Adonijah shall be put to death today!” 25 So King Solomon gave orders to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he struck down Adonijah and he died.

Solomon did refuse her.

You misunderstand the request. Bathsheba knew quite well that
Adonijah was making a bid for the kingdom. She also (just like Mary) knew exactly what her son would do. She made this request in anticipation of this exact response. Adonijah got what he deserved, by the intercession of the Queen Mother.

Mary is alive here. This has nothing to do with intercessionary prayer.

It is an error to assume that those in Christ are any “less” members of the Body than they were before they left this world.

Luke 11

27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

28He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Jesus is affirming the twice blessedness of His mother. She was blessed to bear and to raise Him, but EVEN MORE (rather) she was blessed because of her obedience to God.

 

[guanophore]

I learned about Jack Chick from this forum.

Really? I thought perhaps you were weaned on them.

I learned that Catholics rely on Mary also for their salvation from the catechism book you speak of.

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession** continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . .** Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

It cannot be any clearer.

Perhaps not, but your perceptions surely can be. There is no salvation apart from Christ. the fact that Mary is also in Christ does not change the Source of our salvation. Mary became an integral part of God’s plan to save humanity by His choice. Why does this bother so many people? Are people jealous of Mary?

Also the catechism book I learned that prayers to statues (which you claim is the same as cross in my church, but we don’t pray to the physical cross nor direct prayers to it. It is not the same thing)

You are right. If people are praying to an object, it is idolotry.

1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation,** it is he whom we adore**. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented.

477 At the same time the Church has always acknowledged that in the body of Jesus “we see our God made visible and so are caught up in love of the God we cannot see.” The individual characteristics of Christ’s body express the divine person of God’s Son. He has made the features of his human body his own, to the point that they can be venerated when portrayed in a holy image, for the believer "who venerates the icon is venerating in it the person of the one depicted".

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone.

1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented.

But the Bible is clear (This is but a very small subset.)

There is no contradiction between the Bible and the Catechism. There cannot be, as both have their Source in God, who does not contradict Himself. However, I recommend that, if your faith is weak, and you feel you need a sterile environment in order to prevent you from falling into idolatry, then I think it is better to prevent yourself from sin.

 

[guanophore]

Leeann:

The only truth I know, is what I already possess and am quite content with, my communion in spirit with my Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour/and the Holy Spirit.

Would you really think that I would give that up for anyone?

It seems to me that, if you were “content” you would not be here on CAF.

No one wants you to give up the faith you have. However, something is moving you to be here…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

***…***Certainly there is nothing in the context to suggest Rome or the papacy.

Of course the text doesn’t mention Rome or the successor to Peter’s role as chief pastor.

It does firmly establish in Scripture the Primacy of Peter, among the ministers of God. This is NT ecclesiology which points to sacerdotal unity within the NT Church, having a chief pastor of the universal Church, Peter.

This Scriptural fact begs the question: Shouldn’t today’s Church also have ONE chief pastor of the universal Church, as was the case in NT times? If this is how Christ built his Church, according to Scripture, shouldn’t the continuation of this Church built by Christ and present in the world today also be led by ONE chief pastor, the historic successor of the pastorship of Peter, the sign of sacerdotal unity established by Christ?

As history shows, that’s precisely what the men of the 1st and 2nd century, who were taught by the apostels themselves believed. These early Church Fathers believed that the ecclesiology established by Christ was intended to continue, in Peter’s successor. Consequently, Linus was the chief pastor after the martyrdom of Peter in Rome. After Linus, was Cletus, after Cletus was Clement, etc. After Peter’s matrydom in Rome, the Christian faithful elected the successor to Peter’s pastoral office from among the elders of the Church, and this successorship continued from the 1st century to this day as a Petrine office with honor and jurisdiction in the Church universal.

Petrine Primacy is NT fact, which even Protestant bible scholars admit. What they don’t want to admit is that this Petrine Primacy continues today. For some reason, they want dismiss NT ecclesiology for a governmental construct of human invention, rejected what was established by Scripture by claiming there is no longer a chief pastor of the universal Church as there was in NT times.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Well, if you are praying to Mary and the saints, you are “not going” with His or the Apostles “authentic gospel”.

Another statement not based upon Scripture. Simply asserting something over and over without Scriptural support doesn’t make it true. Tell me the chapter and verse where it says we cannot request the help of angels and heavenly saints.

The Psalmist (Ps 103:20-21; 148:1-2), invokes the heavenly hosts in prayer.
Those are hymns…,not prayers.

Astonishing. Say that to a Jew and they’d laugh at you. Hymns are prayers. In fact “to pray” means “to humbly request.” In the Protestant KJV Bible, people “pray” to other people. For some reason, now Protestants don’t understand what “to pray” means anymore. It’s a humble request. When we ask others to pray for us, we humbly request them to humbly request of God on our behalf.

So too does the author of the the book of Daniel (Dan 3:58, 86).
Could you check those verses/chapter reference for me, I couldn’t find them.

You may not be aware of it, but your Protestant Bible is not the original Christian Bible canonized in the 4th century. For instance, your Protestant book of Daniel has been truncated from the one every Church of Christ considered inspired Scripture since the advent of Christ. In fact, every ancient Christian manuscript of Sacred Scripture in other than fragmentary condition has a longer version of the Book of Daniel than your truncated version. Origen’s Daniel was larger, Jerome’s Daniel was larger, every Church of Christ since the 1st century and before the advent of Protestantism had a more complete book of Daniel, portions of which were even discovered among the Qumran scrolls which dated back to 100 BC.

Your book of Esther, for example, doesn’t even mention God. It too was truncated from the original Christian Bible. The ancient Christian Book of Esther does mention God, by the way. See more here: How Big is Your Book of Daniel? If you want the full Bible, I recommend you read a Catholic Bible.

What exactly do you find a pious Christian practice?

Invoking angels and saints in prayer. Which is in essence, asking other Christians to pray for me. Those other Christians include angels and saints in heaven, as well as the faithful on earth.

What do these things have to do with praying to/through Mary?

Every Christian is part of the same body of Christ, so asking our fellow Christians to pray for us is precisely what we do when we ask Mary or any other saint in heaven to pray for us. Paul exhorts us to pray for one another, so this is in no way contrary to the Gospel of Christ, your novel interpretation of a truncated Bible notwithstanding.

No they don’t tell us where to turn too

It says, “you have come to” (past tense), speaking to the faithful on earth. How have those on earth come to heavenly Jerusalem? By prayer, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We have come to the city of the living God, which includes angels AND saints AND God AND Jesus. St. John spoke to angels and saints in heaven. Its biblical. I have yet to see you provide one passage from Scripture that says we cannot ask the angels and saints for help in prayer. I’m still waiting for that passage. I’ve looked. I cannot find it. Your assertions about it being unBiblical don’t amount to anything without a chapter and verse backing it up.

These verses in no way indicate that we are to pray to any of the assembly of the first-born, or to the spirits of just men made perfect or to angels obviously or to even God or to Jesus. They are establishing “where” we are now as true and faithful believers.

I disagree. They establish a communion of saints in heaven which we have “come to” (past tense). It establishes that we have come to angels AND saints AND God AND Jesus, as one communion. It shows that asking an angel of God for their prayers is just as pious a Chrisitan practice as asking any other member of the Body of Christ for their prayers.

One you show the passage of Scripture that says, “Thou shalt not ask other Christians to pray for you” then you’ll have a more compelling argument.

 

[guanophore]

Petrine Primacy is NT fact, which even Protestant bible scholars admit. What they don’t want to admit is that this Petrine Primacy continues today. ** For some reason**, they want dismiss NT ecclesiology for a governmental construct of human invention, rejected what was established by Scripture by claiming there is no longer a chief pastor of the universal Church as there was in NT times.

The only way that one can, in good Christain conscience, disobey an authority placed there by God, is to somehow discredit for themselves that the authority is valid. Otherwise, such persons could be charged with the sin of rebellion.

If one reads Luther’s letter against the Peasants, it will become clear the thinking of the time of the fate of persons who have spurned authority in this way.

 

[adstrinity]

Mary became an integral part of God’s plan to save humanity by His choice. Why does this bother so many people? Are people jealous of Mary?

AH!!! So you see it, too?!! I was hoping others would get this.

If I am brain washed then I am so from the Bible.

Leeann?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adstrinity
The question was to whom would the Apostles appeal? It was past tense. Back then, they would have had no idea. Today, if Mary says no, I think the Apostles will take their cue from Mary.

Leeann: Here is the question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

We must all pray to Mary that we are found worthy to be with Her in Heaven.

Why???
The Catholic church has taught you this???
What about being found worthy enough to be with HIM in Heaven?

Please Holy Mother of God, pray for us sinners so that we may have the strength to do your Son’s work here on Earth so that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Amen.

Hmmm…I think we’re getting the issue better now. You’re scared of Mary. You have been brainwashed against Her.

It’s something that all of us who were once Protestant first went through, but we, however persuaded, by the intercession of the Holy Spirit, come to accept Her as our Mother.

I think that this post of yours is very telling and hopefully you can read what you posted (your second reply here) and see the issue.

Response Leeann:
The “Why?” one….is that the “second reply” you mean?
If it is….as I said, we should be more concerned about being found worthy enough to be with HIM in heaven.
Mary’s wonderful, I love her and have no reason to fear her.

---

I don’t think you fear Her, but I do think you are scared of Mary. Even evidenced in this post. I’m not sure why. Does She threaten you? Do you think that She will somehow come between you and Christ? Are you jealous that Jesus loves Her more? What IS your issue with Her? I am trying to help you and to get you to look inside yourself. You are not being humble and you are not being honest. We keep telling you that it’s not an either/or, but, you do not take our word for it. We keep telling you that God is all great, and you do not accept this is our belief. I think that this is a level of your pride, Leeann, God knows this post here can’t be helping you to lessen yourself, but, I think this is a level of pride for you on two levels:

1. It’s NOT just you and God when it all comes down to it
2. You MUST stick to your pride and incorrect assertions to make yourself feel better and comfortable.

You can use the Bible all you want (and that is what is happening, you are using it, not utilizing it, but, merely using it so you can get it to do what you want), but, when the passages are explained, you still cling to what YOU believe about the passages. You (and all Protestants who believe like you do), have to have such a small view of things, that while you may claim it’s just Jesus and Me and I’m in a relationship, it’s really JUST YOU, sans Jesus, because it can NEVER be just Jesus and another person. AND, if it is just you, not Jesus, then you really don’t care about ANYTHING He said, just what you say and what you believe. …And if this is the case, then you will not see that the Apostles, in your faulty scenario, wouldn’t know where to turn because if Mary says no, then Jesus will listen to Her. And if this is the case, then you will not see that the Apostles, in your faulty scenario, wouldn’t split up Jesus and Mary. And if this is the case, then you will not see that the Apostles, in your faulty scenario, cannot split up Mary’s, ‘yes,’ to God’s will. …But you can’t see any of this, because when we tell you where you err, and how, you say, ‘No, you’re wrong. ONLY JESUS ONLY JESUS ONLY JESUS.’ You say this because it’s just you.

And, ~I~ say this to get to the deeper issue, that you are jealous, or threatened, or scared of Mary.

You have been so brainwashed against Her that whenever anybody mentions Her, lights and sirens go off in you and your walls go up. You have been conditioned to accept that Mary is such a Catholic thing that She can NEVER be for the good and love of all peoples, let alone Protestants. Something (I’m not saying human, though, it could have been a pastor or a parent or friends just as much as experiences) has gotten into your psyche and prevents you from accepting the free love and graces of Mary. I bet even with that your mind is thinking, “ONLY GOD CAN GRANT GRACES!!! MARY DOES NOT NOR CAN SHE FREELY LOVE!!!” Yes She can and She does, both love and graces.

 

[adstrinity]

There is something in you that will not let you love Her. You don’t believe She is alive, you have your reasons; you believe She was a sinner, you have your reasons; you don’t think She can pray for us; you have your reasons, but, that is not really why you are here. You are so scared of your own beliefs that you have to come here on this forum and repeatedly argue the same points, even though we have shown you how Catholics view these points; despite our interpretations, for which we have sources, you tell us we are wrong. That’s just you talking, not Jesus in conjuction with you.

I would ask you to say a Hail Mary, but, you may object that this is idolotry, to which I would reply, but, you can just pray to God for forgiveness, so, no harm done. Protestants, as you know, do much worse than pray a Hail Mary, and still presume that God will forgive them if they just say a prayer.

I wish I could p(name removed by moderator)oint this better and express myself clearer, but, in the meantime, I shall study your posts and see what it is about you that makes you feel it is a good and holy thing to take up an issue with Mary as you have done.

Like I said, this is something that all of us former Protestants have been through. Jesus and Me is SUCH a perversion of a doctrine it is the devil’s porn…when abortion isn’t thrilling enough for him. By cutting yourself off from Mary, you cut yourself from Jesus. I guess the ultimate question, then, is, why do you, as shown by your actions here (as there are Protestants who believe as you do, but, are not as pridefully stuborn as you to come onto this site to repeatedly tell us we are wrong) hate Jesus? I’m guessing it’s because if you hate Mary, you hate Jesus, as love of one leads to love of the other, and with a Jesus and Me attitude, it’s really all about you, leaving no room for Jesus…or Mary.

In the meantime, I think StMarina303 could help us with this since she is sure of the BVM’s death…IF She died, didn’t she die around 50 AD? Isn’t that what tradition holds? That’s when we Catholics hold to Her Assumption, right?..and if the She died three days prior to when She was assumed…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The only way that one can, in good Christain conscience, disobey an authority placed there by God, is to somehow discredit for themselves that the authority is valid. Otherwise, such persons could be charged with the sin of rebellion.

It seems to me to be the “sin of Korah’s rebellion” which was warned against in the NT (cf. Jude 11, Num 16).

 

[guanophore]

It seems to me to be the “sin of Korah’s rebellion” which was warned against in the NT (cf. Jude 11, Num 16).

It seems that way to us because we believe in the promise of Jesus to preserve His Church. However, to them, it seems more like the Apostolic “cheek” of preaching Name when they were told not to do so. They see it as a license to “obey God rather than man”.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
What I can’t wrap my mind around, is that there is no indication from Jesus or His Apostles that this is a practice that should be followed at all – ever – or that it is necessary or beneficial in any way.

Jesus said to “Come to Me…(He didn’t mention going to Mary or anyone else)…His Apostles always pointed the early Christians to Him or God….never hinted at or mentioned to go to Mary (at any point – when she was alive – or after ) …this practice is a “later” development within the Catholic Church’s teachings

marcopolo:
The specifics of Mary’s Immaculate Conception or Assumption for instance are certainly later developments. I’d acknowledge that readily! Then again I fully believe in the development of doctrine and Tradition and the authority of the Church, and not sola scriptura (even though there are elusions to these teachings in this Scripture), so there’s the heart of the barrier…

But as to Scripture alone, when you say Jesus said “come to me”, surely you see many examples of people coming to the apostles or clamoring to see Peter (Acts 5:15) or going to “the elders” (James 5:14), among many, many examples. These are not done “instead” of Jesus. Because none of these detract from Jesus…but rather glorifies Him!

Yes, of course they came to the Apostles, they were His “teachers/preachers” and as in James, very specifically advising the early Christians to uplift one another in prayer to God/Jesus…not to/through any other “saints” that had died and gone to heaven.

marcopolo:
In fact, if you spend time honoring Mary, you are side by side Jesus who is honoring His mother too! What a great way to unite with our Lord.

That’s an interesting way of putting it.

Shouldn’t it be spending time honoring Jesus, side by side Mary who is honoring Her Saviour/son?

 

[Leeann]

Hi jfallaw:

Originally Posted by Leeann
zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

jfallaw:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#I

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

Let’s put it this way. Let’s say you are Jesus (not trying to be blasphemous, just giving an example!) and I prayed to you for something, but you did not feel I was worthy of it. Then I prayed to your mother, who is with you in Heaven. The one who comforted you when you were sorrowful, who dried your tears when you were hurt, who tucked you in at night. (Remember, Jesus was fully human and experienced every human emotion). Then your mother came to you and asked you to please grant my prayer, even though I was unworthy. Would you do it for her? That is the way Catholics view Mary. As a mother and an helper. Obviously the Pope knows we can ask anything of Jesus- but he also knows that if Jesus does not deem us worthy, then we can turn to His mother.

But that’s why Jesus shed His blood for us… …His shed blood deems us worthy…our belief and faith in Him and His blood sacrifice deems us worthy…… so that we can go directly to Him/The Father through Him.…. He is THE mediator.

This is what the Apostles taught and preached and recorded.

Nothing else…because that message was the same back then as it is now.

jfallaw:
Protestants don’t often seem to realize that in Catholicism, Jesus ALWAYS comes first. It is such a fundamental belief that there is really no point in explaining it to Catholics who know their faith. But we must realize that Protestants usually know next to nothing about the Catholic faith, and that it might APPEAR as though we are turning to Mary first…

Would that be because the Pope doesn’t trust in the blood sacrifice of Jesus to “deem him worthy”…so he turns to Mary instead?