Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[eva6206213]

~
thanks for the post!

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
The people Peter preached Jesus too – were not yet joined to either Christ or the church when he preached to them. Afterwards – when they believed and were baptized in the name of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit – they were then a part of His Body – His church.

guanophore:
Yes, we are in agreeement. The Catholic Church teaches that her birthday occurred on Pentecost, when the Spirit fell. The fledgling church, of 120 or so, then went out to the people, and began to preach. Those who listened were those who “came to the church” to hear the Gospel.

At Pentecost - on the very day – when the Spirit fell – those who came, came wondering at the commotion that was on display – they thought the “fledgling church members” were drunk, because what appeared to them to be “babbling” was different languages being spoken – then Peter stood up amongst them, right there and then – and preached JESUS.

Originally Posted by Leeann
The Catholic Church as we know it today and as it has developed over the centuries is nothing like the church that was present on and after the day of Pentecost-

guanophore:
You keep saying that, and I keep being mystified about what you mean…

It was my study of history that made me realize it was the same Church!

Yes….but “whose” history, the Catholic Church’s history???

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
that you state “these elements were all present” really helps my point here – what about the “Marian Theology” and the “Marian Dogmas” that have been developed and integrated into the gospel message that was originally preached and taught for the salvation of all mankind –

guanophore:
I think this would make better sense when you have studied the early heresies. The Marian Dogmas were developed “backwards” from the development of the doctrines about Jesus. These had to be developed and clarified to address the Gnostic and Arian heresies that were not present in the NT times.

No – the “first” Marian Dogma (Mother of God) – was established to counteract the heresies that
challenged Jesus’ divinity. The following dogmas were developed and established later…for what purpose……well, that “mystifies” me……

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
whereby now you yourself have come to the conclusion that there is no “separation” of Mary and Jesus – they are “inseparable” – when scripture itself makes a clear distinction and that is what was originally taught. See Ephesians verses again.

guanophore:
To clarify, my post above was ambiguous. I meant that Jesus is inseparable from His Church. However, Mary and the saints have the prayer of Paul in Eph. fulfilled in themselves. They always point to Christ, and cannot be separated from Him because they are freed from sin, their salvation is completed, and their wills have been perfectly conformed to His. This is God’s desire for all of us.

Well…I don’t know… …it says what it says…perhaps we read it differently.

21 **Above all **principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion, **and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come. **
22 And he hath subjected **all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church, **
23 Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all.

guanophore:

There is no distinction between Jesus and the Church. As many as were baptized into the Church were baptized into Christ.

Originally Posted by Leeann
*How about this – as many **as were baptized **into CHRIST – were then a part of His Body of believers – His church? *

guanophore:
well, yes…
Help me if I am missing something. I don’t see any difference.

It’s a subtle difference, but people can be baptized into Christ without the necessity of the “Church” (Catholic Church – I’m assuming as indicated in your post above?) – just as those who were baptized before the day of Pentecost….before they were all gathered together in one
accord.

---

 

[Leeann]

[SIGN]Where are you realcatholicgk - we need you to drag us back to the TOPIC!!![/SIGN]

 

[guanophore]

Falsehood #1
Mary is not Jesus. It is that simple. We pray to Jesus, and we are not praying to Mary at all, because they are two different beings. I look to Jesus direct, never Mary. Christians should not delude themselves in thinking they pray to Mary, she is dead. Only Jesus is alive.

I agree that Mary is not Jesus, and they are not interchangeable as different persons. Mary has whatever privileges that are afforded to her by God to intercede for us. I am curious why you say the saints are “dead”. How can the dead know what is going on here on earth, and be involved in it? how come you say they are “dead” even though Jesus specifically states the opposite?

It’s also pretty mixed up to say 1) that Jesus is “King of Heaven,” and 2) Mary is “Queen of Heaven,” for this gives the far out message that mother and son are married and also husband and wife. The closer I look at the Marian doctrines, the whackier they get.

Well this is not a Marian doctrine, and it is mixed up. In order for one to understand the role of the Queen Mother is to undestand the role of Gamera in the Jewish Kingdom. The Queen mother had her own office and powers, as a result of her Son’s Kingship.

 

[guanophore]

then Peter stood up amongst them, right there and then – and preached JESUS.

It seems to me that this is the duty of the Church. We are to manifest the Power of God, and when people’s attention is grasped, preach the Gospel (if necessary, use words )

The Catholic Church as we know it today and as it has developed over the centuries is nothing like the church that was present on and after the day of Pentecost-

":

guanophore
You keep saying that, and I keep being mystified about what you mean…

It was my study of history that made me realize it was the same Church!

Yes….but “whose” history, the Catholic Church’s history???

I started with Jack Chick tracks and Foxe’s book of martyrs.

No – the “first” Marian Dogma (Mother of God) – was established to counteract the heresies that challenged Jesus’ divinity. The following dogmas were developed and established later…for what purpose……well, that “mystifies” me……

Yes, these were the Arian and Gnostic heresies. They were not present when the NT was written, but developed later, and the Church developed responses to them.

Well…I don’t know… …it says what it says…perhaps we read it differently.

Jesus generosity in glorifying HImself in the saints takes nothing away from His glory.
"guanophore There is no distinction between Jesus and the Church. As many as were baptized into the Church were baptized into Christ. [/COLOR:

How about this – as many **as were baptized **into CHRIST – were then a part of His Body of believers – His church?

guanophore:
well, yes…
Help me if I am missing something. I don’t see any difference.

It’s a subtle difference, but people can be baptized into Christ without the necessity of the “Church” (Catholic Church – I’m assuming as indicated in your post above?) –

No, this is not the case. The baptism into Christ unites us to Him, and makes us members of His Body, the Church. There is only One Church, and we are all members of one another. This is a “necessity”.

just as those who were baptized before the day of Pentecost….before they were all gathered together in one accord.

This is why we say unity with the Apostles is one of the marks of the true church.

[SIGN]Where are you realcatholicgk - we need you to drag us back to the TOPIC!!![/SIGN]

Probably he is off pounding on someone with his holy hammer, or blowing them up.

It sounds like we might be ready for a new topic.

 

[guanophore]

I know that Jesus gave authority to the Apostles to establish *His *church, I was asking how you know that the Catholic Church’s authority is from God.

I know this because the Catholic Church is the same Church that was founded upon the Apostles and Prophets, which Christ Jesus being the cornerstone. I am curious why you think it is not.

I’m sorry, I disagree.

While it was indeed a promise made to His Apostles with regards to His commission when He sent them out to establish His church…it is also something that each individual, by being in communion with Him, by being “in” Him, as He is in the Father and true and faithful believers are joined in them as one….(John 17)…. A personal relationship where His truth is “there”, because He is “there”.

I am not sure where you disagree. Do you think that, when He made the promise to the Church that He would send His spirit to lead them into all truth, he did not mean it?

I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church is in unity with His teachings and since you are aware that I don’t believe the Catholic Church of today, is the same as the church His Apostles established, my question remains…then how can the Catholic Church
claim ‘authority’ when it hasn’t remained in unity with His teachings?

You have lost me again. I do not see the departure from Christ’s teaching. Should we take this to another thread?

He knew my spirit was burdened for my friends (you know the story) and I asked for some way of understanding what had happened….or is this the “norm”.

Yes, I believe CAF is the answer to your prayer! It seems that you have at least become pursuaded that the Catholic Church does not teach, or at least claims not to teach worship of Mary, have you not?

The different responses that posters have offered – not just in this thread – but the others I stumbled around in - shows that there are various “levels” or “depths” …of adoration/worship/veneration/honor afforded to Mary by each individual and in some cases various understandings/interpretations of the actual teachings or the dogmas themselves.

Yes. It seems that you have personally observed these as well.

I've learned that not all are as extreme to the point of being “exclusively” focused on Mary alone ….as are my friends.

My own focus has been directed more to the teaching and promulgation of this theology itself.

This might be limiting. The Marian doctrines came out of the doctrinal developments about the nature of Christ. These might be a more useful study.

Hence the “thread question” – with regards to the Pope’s prayer – to/through – Mary.

Oh yes…He is head over all the church (universal) – His body, of all true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship……not necessarily the Catholic church.

Yes, I agree, the Church should not replace Christ as the focus of worship any more than Mary.

2 Thess 1:10-12
11 To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ."

God is glorified in and through His Church.

 

[Good_Fella]

Falsehood #1
Mary is not Jesus. It is that simple. We pray to Jesus, and we are not praying to Mary at all, because they are two different beings. I look to Jesus direct, never Mary. Christians should not delude themselves in thinking they pray to Mary, she is dead. Only Jesus is alive.

It’s also pretty mixed up to say 1) that Jesus is “King of Heaven,” and 2) Mary is “Queen of Heaven,” for this gives the far out message that mother and son are married and also husband and wife. The closer I look at the Marian doctrines, the whackier they get.

In the ancient Davidic kingdom, the queen was the king’s mother, not his wife or first among many wives. Our Marian doctrines wouldn’t seem so much whackier if you were more learned.

Mary is alive and well and living in heaven. Show us her body before you tell anyone she’s dead. Her tomb has been empty since Apostolic times. Regardless of how you feel, Jesus loves and honours his mother.

PAX :tanning:

 

[mercygate]

I know that Jesus gave authority to the Apostles to establish *His *church, I was asking how you know that the Catholic Church’s authority is from God.

It’s the continuity of history and Scripture. Jesus breathes on the Apostles on Easter night, sending them as the Father sent Him, breathing on them, conveying to them the power of the Holy Spirit for the forgivness and retention of sins. Then, moving to Pentecost, the power of the Holy Spirit for spreading the Gospel decends upon the faithful band. We have the paper trail of that band – partly the scriptures, and from other documents, such as the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the letters of Ignatius (appointed bishop of Antioch by John the Evangelist) and Clement and so on . . . The Church of Pentecost is historically, spiritually, and doctrinally found in the Churches of the East that never let slip their Apostolic Succession, but at its core, it is found in the See of Rome: the See of Peter upon whom Our Lord promised to build HIS Church. That is how we know. We trust Him.

I’m sorry, I disagree.
While it was indeed a promise made to His Apostles with regards to His commission when He sent them out to establish His church…it is also something that each individual, by being in communion with Him, by being “in” Him, as He is in the Father and true and faithful believers are joined in them as one….(John 17)…. A personal relationship where His truth is “there”, because He is “there”.

Of course. But this does not preclude the existence of the Apostolic commission handed down personally through history that serves as the marker of Christ’s foundation.

I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church is in unity with His teachings and since you are aware that I don’t believe the Catholic Church of today, is the same as
the church His Apostles established, my question remains…then how can the Catholic Church
claim ‘authority’ when it hasn’t remained in unity with His teachings?

When did the Church stop being the Church? And of course, it IS in unityi with Christ’s teachings. We would argue that in order to SEE that you actually have to go back through the history of theology and walk through time to recognize the consistency.

He knew my spirit was burdened for my friends (you know the story) and I asked for some way of understanding what had happened….or is this the “norm”.

The different responses that posters have offered – not just in this thread – but the others I stumbled around in - shows that there are various “levels” or “depths” …of adoration/worship/veneration/honor afforded to Mary by each individual and in some cases various understandings/interpretations of the actual teachings or the dogmas themselves.

I’ve learned that not all are as extreme to the point of being “exclusively” focused on Mary alone ….as are my friends.

Yack! Focused on Mary *ALONE! *She is never the “focus” in sound Catholic thinking. That is why I suggested that you read Pope Benedict’s book, published shortly after he was elected to the Chair of Peter: *Jesus of Nazareth. *You have been thrown off by one sentence, which taken out from the context of this man’s entire life and thought, does NOT convey the depth of his personal, lifelong engagement with the Lord.

Oh yes…He is head over all the church (universal) – His body, of all true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship……not necessarily the Catholic church. __________________You thus attempt to exclude the Church from Christ’s Headship.

 

[ron77nyc]

Leeann;4395933[COLOR="Purple":

No – the “first” Marian Dogma (Mother of God) – was established to counteract the heresies that
challenged Jesus’ divinity. The following dogmas were developed and established later…for what purpose……well, that “mystifies” me……

They are trying to establish a common ground with Hindus and Muslims.

 

[onenow1]

Quote= LeeannHow in any way whatsoever has either of those postings got to do with what you’ve have posted ?

Quote=onenoow1 The crux of the matter Leeann,is AUTHORITY ]and why I posted, Matthew 16
16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Quote=onenow1. St.Peter along with the apostles under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, perpetuated the Church that Christ founded and indeed it was Catholic . Not to mention cannonized the bible with that same guidance.

Now as to the point on St.Paul I do not recall Jesus changing Pauls name, as he did with Peter the Rock. Pauls mission was to spread the word of the Lord to the Gentiles. St.Peter and the Apostles under the guidance of the Holy Spirit opened that door for St.Paul.

Verse 19 of Matt. whether you care to acknoweledge it or not, [AUTHORITY].indeed is the crux of the matter.

The Church has spoken over the centurys, as short as I can say this no Mary ,no Jesus. This is the gospel of luke right from the get go.

Further in Matt. 1: 1-17, notice the seperation in the line of David, I don’t think it is a coincidence, that Matt. gives detail of all the sinners in this line of David. then in VS16, Jesus becomes the adopted son of Joseph not by flesh.

This indeed seperates Jesus from a line of sinners, don’t you recognize this Leeann ? Mary is sinless by the grace of God as stated by God himself through Gabriel.

So indeed Mary is always pointing to Jesus; and the Vicars of Christ have recognized this through the years under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Peace,onenow1

 

[guanophore]

They are trying to establish a common ground with Hindus and Muslims.

I don’t know who tells you these strange things, ron77, or if you cook them up in your own imagination. Hindus do not believe in the Trinity, and the Marian Doctrines preceeded the creation of Islam for about half a millennia. I strongly suggest that you read up on the early church heresies, so that you will not be tempted to make such ridiculous accusations.

 

[ron77nyc]

I don’t know who tells you these strange things, ron77, or if you cook them up in your own imagination. Hindus do not believe in the Trinity, and the Marian Doctrines preceeded the creation of Islam for about half a millennia. I strongly suggest that you read up on the early church heresies, so that you will not be tempted to make such ridiculous accusations.

traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/g06htPortugalNewsDocs.htm
Portugal News Documents on the
Fatima Interfaith Congress and Shrine

Fatima to Become Interfaith Shrine

November 11, 2003

Delegates attending the Vatican and United Nations (UN) inspired annual interfaith congress “The Future of God”, held during October in Fátima, heard how the Shrine is to be developed into a centre where all the religions of the world will gather to pay homage to their various gods. The Congress was held in the Paul VI Pastoral Centre and presided over by the Cardinal Patriarch of Lisbon José de Cruz Policarpo.

The Shrine’s rector, Monsignor Luciano Guerra, told the Congress that Fátima “will change for the better.” Addressing Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Orthodox, Buddhist and African Pagan representatives he stated:
“The future of Fátima, or the adoration of God and His mother at this holy Shrine, must pass through the creation of a shrine where different religions can mingle. The inter-religious dialogue in Portugal, and in the Catholic Church, is still in an embryonic phase, but the Shrine of Fátima is not indifferent to this fact and is already open to being a universalistic place of vocation.”
The Hindu representative Ansshok Ansraj, described how already in the Far East millions of Hindus are getting “positive vibrations” from visiting Marian shrines without endangering their faith.

Monsignor Guerra pointed out that the very fact that Fátima is the name of a Muslim and Mohammed’s daughter, is indicative that the Shrine must be open to the co-existence of various faiths and beliefs. According to the Monsignor: “Therefore we must assume that it was the will of the Blessed Virgin Mary that this comes about this way.” Traditional Catholics opposed to the Congress were described by the Monsignor as “old fashioned, narrow minded, fanatic extremists and provocateurs.”

For the first time in the 86-year history of Fátima all of the Pagan and Christian delegates were invited to participate in the Ecumenical celebrations. One of the principle speakers, the Jesuit theologian Father Jacques Dupuis, was insistent that the religions of the world must unite. “The religion of the future will be a general converging of religions in a universal Christ that will satisfy all”, he said.

The Belgium born theologian argued:
“The other religious traditions in the world are part of God’s plan for humanity and the Holy Spirit is operating and present in Buddhist, Hindu and other sacred writings of Christian and non-Christian faiths as well.” In an impassioned plea he said: “The universality of God’s kingdom permits this, and this is nothing more than a diversified form of sharing in the same mystery of salvation. In the end it is hoped that the Christian will become a better Christian and each Hindu a better Hindu.”
An official statement put out by the Congress called for a non-proselytising approach by all religions.
“No one religion can irradiate another”, it said “or strengthen itself by downplaying others and an open dialogue is the way to building bridges and tearing down walls of centuries of hate. What is needed is that each religion be true to its faith integrally and treat each religion on the same footing of equality with no inferior or superiority complexes.”
It emphasised that the secret to peace amongst all religions is admitting that contradictions exist between creeds but to concentrate on what unites them as opposed to what separates them.

Delegates agreed that religious shrines, including Fátima, should be revamped every 25 years to reflect modern day trends and beliefs. The Shrine of Fátima is about to undergo a complete reconstruction with a new stadium-like basilica being erected close by the existing one built in 1921.

One more to follow. What conclusion would you come to after reading both?

 

[ron77nyc]

ewtn.com/library/MARY/z5dogmant.HTM

**I had to cut out some paragraphs to make it fit.**A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH

5th Dogma a Marian Antidote

Interview With Syro-Malabar Cardinal Vithayathil

KERALA, India, 21 MAY 2008 (ZENIT)
An antidote to the challenges facing the Church and society today is the glorification of Mary through the proclamation of a fifth Marian dogma, says Cardinal Varkey Vithayathil of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.

Cardinal Vithayathil, major archbishop of the Syro-Malabar Archdiocese of Ernakulam-Angamaly, is one of the five cardinals who sent a letter in January inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would “proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.”

The text includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as “the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.”

In this interview with ZENIT, Cardinal Vithayathil, who turns 81 on May 29, comments on the effect the proclamation of the dogma could have on interreligious and ecumenical dialogue, and the possible fruits he foresees could result.

The Syro-Malabar Church is made up of about 3.5 million of India’s 16 million Catholics.

Q: Does the Syro-Malabar rite have a particularly generous devotion to Our Lady?

Cardinal Vithayathil: Yes, the Syro-Malabar Catholics have a great tradition of intense devotion to Our Lady. There is a belief among them that the apostle St. Thomas who first preached the Gospel to their ancestors had brought with him a replica of the picture of the Blessed Virgin supposedly painted by the Evangelist Luke. Centuries before the Portuguese missionaries arrived, there were many churches dedicated to Our Lady in Malabar.

Pope John Paul II has asserted that the Syro-Malabar Catholics were never formally separated from the Sea of St. Peter during the 20 centuries of their existence.

During the three centuries that the Latin Carmelite bishops from Europe ruled the Syro-Malabar Church, there was a deepening of devotion to Our Lady among the Syro-Malabars. Practically every member of the community wore the brown Carmelite scapular and recited the family rosary everyday.

In the apostolic constitution “Romani Pontifices,” which erected the Syro-Malabar hierarchy, Pope Pius XI gives as a reason for the flourishing of the community the singular devotion of the Syro-Malabar faithful toward the Blessed Virgin Mary (“Singularem erga Beatissimam Virginem Mariam pietatem”).

Q: Why do you think that the time is opportune for the declaration of a fifth Marian dogma?

Q: The principal objection posed against the solemn definition of a fifth Marian dogma is the Church’s mission of ecumenism. Do you think this Marian declaration would hurt the ecumenical cause for the Church?

Cardinal Vithayathil: Not only will the solemn definition never hurt the ecumenical movement, but it will positively enhance it. I feel that it is God’s will that we should honor Our Lady in a special way at this juncture of world history. Only good can come out of doing God’s will. We should follow prudence born out of faith and not merely worldly prudence.

Almighty God is the Lord of history and he can always overcome the effects of disunity caused by human weakness. The Hindu communities in India are extremely open to the concept of “Mother,” and they enthusiastically participate in the Marian devotions of the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Churches with whom we live together, already believe in this doctrine.

Q: As major archbishop of an Eastern Church, do you believe a new Marian dogma would hurt East-West relations, or distance our relationship with the Orthodox Church?

Q: What fruits do you foresee for the Church and the world coming from a solemn definition of Mary’s spiritual motherhood in her roles as co-redemptrix, mediatrix of all graces and advocate?

Cardinal Vithayathil: I foresee many fruits for the Church and the world as a result of the solemn definition of this dogma. It will bring more peace built on justice in the world. It will give a new spurt to evangelization. It will bring about greater devotion to Mary and confidence in her intercessory power.

It will make Catholics realize that just as Mary, through the merits of Jesus Christ, has become co-redemptrix, mediatrix of all graces and advocate for the whole human race, we too share in Mary’s threefold roles for the salvation of humankind.

Even though the content of the proposed definition is clearly taught by the Fathers and doctors of the Church, such as St. Alphonsus Liguori in his work “Glories of Mary,” an infallible definition by the Pope will help deepen the confidence of the people of God in Mary’s role as co-redemptrix, mediatrix of all graces and advocate.

 

[mercygate]

They are trying to establish a common ground with Hindus and Muslims.

What are you smoking?

 

[ron77nyc]

What are you smoking?

Hi Mercygate. I’m just sitting here in my room with the love beads hanging in the doorway listening to my old Ravi Shankar records and watching the smoke rise up between the lampshade and the 60 watt bulb. It’s far out and way cool.

 

[Leeann]

guanophore:
No, this is not the case. The baptism into Christ unites us to Him, and makes us members of His Body, the Church. There is only One Church, and we are all members of one another. This is a “necessity”.

For clarification here – what “One Church” are you referring too. Or when you say “members of His Body, the Church” – what “Church” are you referring too there?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
just as those who were baptized before the day of Pentecost….before they were all gathered together in one accord.

guanophore:
This is why we say unity with the Apostles is one of the marks of the true church.

And what “true church” are you referring too here?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Where are you realcatholicgk - we need you to drag us back to the TOPIC!!!

guanophore:
Probably he is off pounding on someone with his holy hammer, or blowing them up.

No – that was churchmilitant!

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

I know that Jesus gave authority to the Apostles to establish His church, I was asking how you know that the Catholic Church’s authority is from God.

guanophore:
I know this because the Catholic Church is the same Church that was founded upon the Apostles and Prophets, which Christ Jesus being the cornerstone. I am curious why you think it is not.

*Previously posted Leeann: *
The Catholic Church as we know it today and as it has developed over the centuries is nothing like the church that was present on and after the day of Pentecost- that you state “these elements were all present” really helps my point here – what about the “Marian Theology” and the “Marian Dogmas” that have been developed and integrated into the gospel message that was originally preached and taught for the salvation of all mankind.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I’m sorry, I disagree.
While it was indeed a promise made to His Apostles with regards to His commission when He sent them out to establish His church…it is also something that each individual, by being in communion with Him, by being “in” Him, as He is in the Father and true and faithful believers are joined in them as one….(John 17)…. A personal relationship where His truth is “there”, because He is “there”.

guanophore:
I am not sure where you disagree. Do you think that, when He made the promise to the Church that He would send His spirit to lead them into all truth, he did not mean it?

Of course He meant it and is still doing it today.
It’s just that His truth is not encapsulated in the Catholic Church alone.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church is in unity with His teachings and since you are aware that I don’t believe the Catholic Church of today, is the same as the church His Apostles established, my question remains…then how can the Catholic Church claim ‘authority’ when it hasn’t remained in unity with His teachings?

guanophore:
You have lost me again. I do not see the departure from Christ’s teaching. Should we take this to another thread?

No, we can keep it here, since it pertains to the teachings of the Catholic Church with regards to Mary’s significance and role , as displayed by the Pope praying to/through her instead of to God/Jesus.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
He knew my spirit was burdened for my friends (you know the story) and I asked for some way of understanding what had happened….or is this the “norm”.

guanophore:
Yes, I believe CAF is the answer to your prayer! It seems that you have at least become pursuaded that the Catholic Church does not teach, or at least claims not to teach worship of Mary, have you not?

The latter part of your sentence is closer – “claims not to teach”.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

I’ve learned that not all are as extreme to the point of being “exclusively” focused on Mary alone ….as are my friends.
My own focus has been directed more to the teaching and promulgation of this theology itself.

guanophore:
This might be limiting. The Marian doctrines came out of the doctrinal developments about the nature of Christ. These might be a more useful study.

Sorry – the 1st Marian dogma may have come about to try to establish firmly the “divinity of Jesus”, however the following ones aren’t needed with regards to the “nature of Christ”…their development was to establish the “nature of Mary”….which in itself is irrelevant to the gospel message that Jesus and His Apostles preached and taught for the salvation of all mankind.
She was a virgin…what was necessary for God’s plan.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I know that Jesus gave authority to the Apostles to establish His church, I was asking how you know that the Catholic Church’s authority is from God.

mercygate:
It’s the continuity of history and Scripture. Jesus breathes on the Apostles on Easter night, sending them as the Father sent Him, breathing on them, conveying to them the power of the Holy Spirit for the forgivness and retention of sins. Then, moving to Pentecost, the power of the Holy Spirit for spreading the Gospel decends upon the faithful band. We have the paper trail of that band – partly the scriptures, and from other documents, such as the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the letters of Ignatius (appointed bishop of Antioch by John the Evangelist) and Clement and so on . . . The Church of Pentecost is historically, spiritually, and doctrinally found in the Churches of the East that never let slip their Apostolic Succession, but at its core, it is found in the See of Rome: the See of Peter upon whom Our Lord promised to build HIS Church. That is how we know. We trust Him.

Continuity of history……………and Scripture……………………. …and …trust in Him.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Continuity of history……………and Scripture……………………. …and …trust in Him.

Leeann… I’m sorry to seem rude, but your “re-hashing” of what Mercygate posted is exactly what we feel so many protestants do with the Bible and especially church teaching.

 

[Leeann]

**Leeann:**I’m sorry, I disagree.
While it was indeed a promise made to His Apostles with regards to His commission when He sent them out to establish His church…it is also something that each individual, by being in communion with Him, by being “in” Him, as He is in the Father and true and faithful believers are joined in them as one….(John 17)…. A personal relationship where His truth is “there”, because He is “there”.

mercygate:
Of course. But this does not preclude the existence of the Apostolic commission handed down personally through history that serves as the marker of Christ’s foundation.

It does however, enable believers to be able to test and know what HIS truth is and to be able to distinguish what has remained true to the gospel message that Jesus and his Apostles preached and taught.

Leeann:
I’m assuming you mean the Catholic Church is in unity with His teachings and since you are aware that I don’t believe the Catholic Church of today, is the same as
the church His Apostles established, my question remains…then how can the Catholic Church
claim ‘authority’ when it hasn’t remained in unity with His teachings?

**mercygate: **
When did the Church stop being the Church? And of course, it IS in unityi with Christ’s teachings. We would argue that in order to SEE that you actually have to go back through the history of theology and walk through time to recognize the consistency.

But what and whose “history of theology” would you be walking through”?

Leeann:
He knew my spirit was burdened for my friends (you know the story) and I asked for some way of understanding what had happened….or is this the “norm”.

The different responses that posters have offered – not just in this thread – but the others I stumbled around in - shows that there are various “levels” or “depths” …of adoration/worship/veneration/honor afforded to Mary by each individual and in some cases various understandings/interpretations of the actual teachings or the dogmas themselves.

I’ve learned that not all are as extreme to the point of being “exclusively” focused on Mary alone ….as are my friends.

**mercygate: **
Yack! Focused on Mary ALONE! She is never the “focus” in sound Catholic thinking. That is why I suggested that you read Pope Benedict’s book, published shortly after he was elected to the Chair of Peter: Jesus of Nazareth. You have been thrown off by one sentence, which taken out from the context of this man’s entire life and thought, does NOT convey the depth of his personal, lifelong engagement with the Lord.

Just as I read this…I remembered…thank you for reminding me…I think it was you that posted a “site” to read when I was in the throws of “fever/hacking/and delirium” last week….I’ll have to go back and check it out.

No-no-no….in the above quote I am referring to some friends that are really
into “focus” on Mary alone, seriously separated…I haven’t read Pope Benedict’s book, so I haven’t been “thrown off by one sentence”?

Leeann:
Oh yes…He is head over all the church (universal) – His body, of all true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship……not necessarily the Catholic church.

mercygate:
You thus attempt to exclude the Church from Christ’s Headship.

Oh no. The Catholic Church is included, along with all other denominations.

 

[Leeann]

onenow1

The crux of the matter Leeann,is AUTHORITY ]and why I posted, Matthew 16
16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Quote=onenow1. St.Peter along with the apostles under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, perpetuated the Church that Christ founded and indeed it was Catholic . Not to mention cannonized the bible with that same guidance.

Now as to the point on St.Paul I do not recall Jesus changing Pauls name, as he did with Peter the Rock. Pauls mission was to spread the word of the Lord to the Gentiles. St.Peter and the Apostles under the guidance of the Holy Spirit opened that door for St.Paul.

Yes – you seem to have this “thing” with regards to “Paul and Peter” ….???

onenow1:
Verse 19 of Matt. whether you care to acknoweledge it or not, [AUTHORITY].indeed is the crux of the matter.

Oh I’ve acknowledged that way back! Any discussion or dialogue always comes back to the
“AUTHORITY”, that is claimed by the Catholic Church.

onenow1:
The Church has spoken over the centurys, as short as I can say this no Mary ,no Jesus. This is the gospel of luke right from the get go.

What of the other gospel recordings – not as imperative or even mentioned. (John/Mark)??

onenow1:
Further in Matt. 1: 1-17, notice the seperation in the line of David, I don’t think it is a coincidence, that Matt. gives detail of all the sinners in this line of David. then in VS16, Jesus becomes the adopted son of Joseph not by flesh.
This indeed seperates Jesus from a line of sinners, don’t you recognize this Leeann?

Yes. The genealogy confirms that Jesus was born from a virgin, Mary, just as prophesied and referred to in verse 23 : (Duoay Rheims)

23 Behold **a virgin **shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mary is sinless by the grace of God as stated by God himself through Gabriel.

(Douay Rheims)
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

(New Jerusalem Bible)

26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the House of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28 He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’

(New American Standard Bible)

26Now in the sixth month the angel (AG)Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called (AH)Nazareth,
27to (AI)a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, (AJ)of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

There is no mention of Mary being sinless.

onenow1:
So indeed Mary is always pointing to Jesus; and the Vicars of Christ have recognized this through the years under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

To the point of developing a “theology around her “, that detracts in some cases from Jesus Himself….while other “vicars of Christ”, in other denominations, have stuck to His gospel message and that of what the Apostles preached and taught.