Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

Hi Leeann and welcome back !
Hi onenow! - thanks.

Have a few questions for you in regard to intercession, please bear with me, maybe you can elaborate or are more gifted then I ?

1.Would the Gospels even exist without Blessed Mary ?
I’m sure God would have accomplished His plan with or without Mary.

1. Don’t we have to first believe the Apostles, and the stories they tell about Jesus, before we even begin to believe Jesus is indeed God ?
   It would help, wouldn’t it.
2. Wouldn’t the story of Jesus in fact the entire bible be an intercessory prayer of the writers so we may believe? A love story from God using persons as intercessors.
   That is a lovely way of expressing it onenow1!

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann

It doesn’t say that the saints are praying here at all.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Response Claude Kenneson:
Also, what does Rev. 8:3 mean? “Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.”

Again, where is this action taking place if not heaven?

If prayers of humans are to ALWAYS go to God or Jesus directly, why are there 24 elders (former human leaders) and angels acting as intermediaries?

Rev.8: 3

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

I don’t know or understand all of what Revelations contains and all of what it means, however as we go back to Chapter 7 and then read onward into Chapter 8 – is seems to be describing the prayers of the saints (those believers who were taken out of the tribulation and were in heaven before His throne)……I cannot see where it indicates that the angel or the 24 elders are acting as “intermediaries” in the sense that they are carrying prayers from people on earth to Jesus/God that had been directed to them specifically.

 

[guanophore]

These verses encourage Christians to pray and support one another, as we should all do, they in no way indicate that after death we or anyone else can intercede.

What would imply that death changes anything? Did not Jesus say that all are alive unto Him? Does not the Apostle say that nothing can separate us from Him, including death? If we are attached to the Head, we are ,members one of another. Death has no dominion over us.

These verses do not say that we are to pray to anyone there, they are stating who is there, there’s no indication that they are interceding for anyone, just that they are there with Jesus, our mediator.

Why would they stop doing their ministries? It is clear that the gifts given to the Church will not cease until the end of the age.

Mercygate and Claude Kenneson

I am sorry, I haven’t responded…been busy today with other things….and I’m sorry that I never responded to your previous posting of the Pope’s book, Mercygate on Jesus, however, better late than never……I haven’t read the book, but I am sure that it is Christ centred and written in great faith and love……however, with regards to the topic of this thread….about the Pope’s prayer directed to Mary…dedication of the world to her…all I can say is that a ‘little leaven spoils the whole….’

You seem to be applying the principle of leaven to the inclusion of Mary in the life and ministry of the Church. You also seem to be saying that the Teaching of the Church about Mary is somehow “spoiling” the Church.

Well it certainly reflects the Marian Theology that the Catholic Church has developed over the centuries.

This is a sticking point for those who think that “Rome” is to blame for such things. One must reckon with those Apostolic Churches that are not in communion with Rome who have received the same Apostolic Traditions. The Orthodox do not believe in or support the Latin notion of “doctrinal development”, and the Oriental Churches have different (Eastern) mindset about the doctrine of the faith. These differences in philosophy and world view were major factors in the schisms that exist today.

These Churches, having no love lost on Rome, hold Mary in the same high esteem, and have devotions to her that differ only in culture and language.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray to Jesus. I’m saying Jesus taught us to pray to the Father so that’s what I do. I also said these are my opinions.

Saying the Pope “ought” or “ought not” is pretty impetuous, if you ask me (and I note you did not )

I have no authority to tell people how to pray

You certainly pander your opinion about as though you do!

but I do believe there is a difference between asking someone to intercede for us and praying directly to that person.

No, there is not. Such a statement reflects a deficient understanding of prayer.

Praying directly to someone means you have decided the person being prayed to has some authority to grant your request.

Yes. And…? Do you think that God does not give this to people?

A good example of what I'm saying would be the Litany of the Saints.

Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray for us.
Saint Michael,
Pray for us.
Holy angels of God,
Pray for us.
Saint Joseph,
Pray for us.
Saint John the Baptist,
Pray for us.
Saint Peter and Saint Paul,
Pray for us.

We are asking God the Father and Jesus to have mercy on us because they have the power to judge us. We are asking the saints to pray for us only.

Yes…and? Do you not realize that Jesus has shared this power with His people?

 

[guanophore]

This particular prayer has little to do with the Pope being “grateful to Mary” – he is “imploring” **her **to have “pity” on the whole world that they may repent and return to her heart……stating he/we will not know to whom to turn……if we are deemed “ungrateful and unworthy children of her protection”……

My question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …Mary…or Jesus?

You are creating an “either/or” where one does not exist. Mary wants the whole world to believe in her Divine Son. She takes pity on all who are lost in faithlessness. I would also add that we all start out being ungrateful and unworthy. It is only by Christ’s blood that we can be grateful to God, or to be made worthy in His sight.

No– I mean the Catholic theology – Mariology - that the Catholic Church has developed over the centuries.

If you think this, then you will have to find a way to dispatch the same Apostolic teachings present outside the Church in communion with Rome. I look forward to that!

The obvious difference is that Paul and Peter and all of the Apostles - taught and preached the gospel message centered and focused on CHRIST.

There is no difference. this is what the Catholic Church, and the successor of Peter do. If you are going to judge the Pope by this single prayer, I could understand why you would end up with such a myopic conclusion. However, if you really wish to know the Truth about what the Pope believes and teaches, then I suggest his new book on Jesus.

As you can see from first statement above – I understand that these are not new theories by any means. As “doctrines” however – official “doctrines/dogmas” – a few have indeed “popped into being” – in the 19th and 20th century.

No.

The Immaculate Conception:

“We declare, pronounce and define that the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, by the singular grace and privilege of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, and that this doctrine was revealed by God, and therefore must be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful” Pope Pius IX Dec 8th, 1854 (papal bull).

If you think this is new, then you have a lot to learn about history.
Leeann;4478267:

The Assumption of Mary:

The Assumption of Mary is held infallibly by both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. However, it was not until 1950 that it was officially pronounced a dogma by Pope Pius XII in his Papal Bull Munificentissimus Deus.

The official language states:

“We pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith” 1950

This is the case with all of the Apostolic Teachings. They do not become pronouncements until heresies arise that require such a statement be made. This was the case with the canon of the bible, and the nature of Christ in the fourth century as well. It does not mean that the Scriptures were not accepted as such as soon as they were written, or that the Apostles did not understand the nature of Christ when He was with them.

As to having “existed in Christian teaching from the beginnings of Christianity itself “ – Jesus himself never taught or preached the necessity of believing

in the attributes that the Catholic Church has afforded to Mary, nor did the Apostles.

It is true that some things did not become evident until later. But to say that the Apostles did not teach that Mary is the Theotokos or that Jesus is both man and God is an error.

Me thinks you protest too much – YOU are the one that brought all this up in the first place and then above you state that “an attempt is being made to have it appear that the Catholic Church added bogus doctrines”….???

Be honest, Leeann. You have said from the beginning that these things were added by the Catholic Church, and that they are not authentic Apostolic Doctrine (bogus).

Back to the thread topic – to whom would the Apostles point the Pope too ….Mary or Jesus?

Jesus never separated Himself from Mary, from the time He chose to draw His flesh from hers.

 

[guanophore]

There is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
Jesus is willing and able and capable and DESIRING that we go to/through Him in prayer.

This is true, but He is also desiring that we pray for one another, and it gladdens His heart when we do so.

Matt 8:5-13

When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” 8 The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.” 10 **When Jesus heard him, he was amazed **and said to those who followed him, “Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you according to your faith.” And the servant was healed in that hour."

Jesus honors the faith of those who come on behalf of others.

Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary's hands

Don’t you think the Centurian placed the life of his servant into the hands of Jesus? It is the faith that is being honored here. I don’t know if the servant sent the Centurian to Jesus, or not. If he did, then the servant placed placed his life in the prayer of the Centurian. It was the Centurians faith, just as it is Mary’s faith, that Jesus honors.
Leeann;4478285:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

See? It is a Marian shrine, and a Marian prayer! You act like it is the only shrine or only kind of prayer! On the feast of Saints Peter and Paul, Benedict asked for their intercession. This is part of the custom of the feast days and memorials. We ask for the intercession of those we commemorate on that day.

It is not right to judge a person’s whole faith life and practice by one tiny snapshot.

The shrine contains an image of Mary to which hundreds of miracles and healings are attributed.

Do you think this is a bunch of hooey?

In the homily delivered during Holy Mass today, the Pope evoked the figure of Bartolo Longo, who, like St. Paul, had persecuted the Church, “becoming militantly anticlerical and engaging in spiritualist and superstitious practices.”
Longo was a Satanist priest who later repented when he encountered the “true face of God,” the Holy Father said.
“Wherever God comes in this desert, flowers bloom,” said Benedict XVI. "Even Blessed Bartolo Longo, with his personal conversion, bears witness to this spiritual power that transforms man from within and makes him capable of doing great things according to God’s designs.

Do you think this is “Mary centered”?

“This city, which he re-founded is thus a historical demonstration of how God transforms the world: filling man’s heart with charity.”
“Here in Pompeii,” the Pope continued, "it is understood that love for God and love for neighbor are inseparable.
“Here at Mary’s feet, families rediscover or reinforce the joy of love that keeps them united.”
The secret of Pompeii, the Holy Father revealed, is the rosary: "This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus."

Again – there is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.

God chose to “need” Mary. I agree, He can do whatever He wants, however He likes. However, why spurn such a gracious and powerful gift?

“The rosary is a contemplative prayer that is accessible to all: great and small, lay people and clerics, cultured and uncultured,” he said. **"The rosary is a spiritual weapon **

in the struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world."

Do you disagree with this?

What do the Apostles say about our struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world?

**Ephesians 6: 10 – 18 **
Hebrews 4: 14 – 16

**And to whom do they point **:

Colossians 2:6 – 9.

Do you think that Mary was not aware of, or used these sprititual weapons? Do you think that these weapons are the only ones that exist? If you do not wish to pray the Rosary, there is no requirement that anyone do so. It is a private devotion that has served to transform and heal the lives of many. There are other spiritual weapons that are also pwerful that are not mentioned here. It is not an exclusive accounting.

You seem so resistant to the possiblity that God may have made Mary a powerful intercessor on our behalf. I wonder why that is?

 

[guanophore]

Why wouldn’t those verses mention the saints, it’s just the same as in Philipians 4: 21-22. (these are fellow believers, alive and in the church at that time):

We take all the verses together, Leeann. When we read the NT, we don’t separate one part from another. We try to glean the meaning from all the parts together. This is the Catholic way of reading the scripture.

Heb 12:22-23
" But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect"

This passage is describing what we call the Church “Triumphant”. This is the part of the Church that has finished the race, completed the course. They are assembled in heaven, worshipping before the Lamb.

It doesn’t say that the saints are praying here at all.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

All that can be said about this is that you have a very narrow experience and understanding of prayer. The elders are in heaven, they have harps, and the prayers of the saints in their posession. They bring these in adoration of the Lamb.

It is difficult for me to understand that you do not see this as prayer, but then, my experience has not been so limited as to exclude the physical body in prayer, incense, harps, or any there other things.

Mary was indeed blessed and favoured by God. God needed a woman (human) to fulfil His plan and Mary did faithfully and dutifully fulfilled the role that God had for her.

This is so odd. You agree that she is blessed and favored, and here you even say that “He needed” her. You affirm her faithfulness and obedience. Yet, you seem to believe that her “role” is ended.

But Jesus, nor the Apostles ever encouraged or taught or preached that it was necessary or even beneficial in anyway whatsoever to go to/through Mary in prayer to get to Jesus. (while she was with them on this earth - or after her death - (if you believed she died or not…I don’t know).

I believe you say things like this because you only have the Scriptures as evidence of what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

You are also lacking the Apostolic perspective on these, being separated from the Apostolic succession.

However - the Apostles did teach/preach about Jesus and after HIS death pointed them to HIM and taught that HE was willing, able and accessible!

He is accessible through those who love Him, and have faith in Him also.

Rev.8: 3

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

I don’t know or understand all of what Revelations contains and all of what it means, however as we go back to Chapter 7 and then read onward into Chapter 8 – is seems to be describing the prayers of the saints (those believers who were taken out of the tribulation and were in heaven before His throne)……I cannot see where it indicates that the angel or the 24 elders are acting as “intermediaries” in the sense that they are carrying prayers from people on earth to Jesus/God that had been directed to them specifically.

Which prayers do you think they are carrying?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

These verses encourage Christians to pray and support one another, as we should all do, they in no way indicate that after death we or anyone else can intercede.

response guanophore:

What would imply that death changes anything? Did not Jesus say that all are alive unto Him? Does not the Apostle say that nothing can separate us from Him, including death? If we are attached to the Head, we are,members one of another. Death has no dominion over us.

We are indeed alive unto Him – and therefore have direct access to Him/God….and should be aware that He is sufficient and able and ready and willing to hear and answer our prayers.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

These verses do not say that we are to pray to anyone there, they are stating who is there, there’s no indication that they are interceding for anyone, just that they are there with Jesus, our mediator.

response guanophore:

Why would they stop doing their ministries? It is clear that the gifts given to the Church will not cease until the end of the age.

Perhaps their ministries have changed….worshipping God?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Mercygate and Claude Kenneson

I am sorry, I haven’t responded…been busy today with other things….and I’m sorry that I never responded to your previous posting of the Pope’s book, Mercygate on Jesus, however, better late than never……I haven’t read the book, but I am sure that it is Christ centred and written in great faith and love……however, with regards to the topic of this thread….about the Pope’s prayer directed to Mary…dedication of the world to her…all I can say is that a ‘little leaven spoils the whole….’

response guanophore:

You seem to be applying the principle of leaven to the inclusion of Mary in the life and ministry of the Church. You also seem to be saying that the Teaching of the Church about Mary is somehow “spoiling” the Church.

Yes……that would be right.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

Well it certainly reflects the Marian Theology that the Catholic Church has developed over the centuries.

response guanophore:

This is a sticking point for those who think that “Rome” is to blame for such things. One must reckon with those Apostolic Churches that are not in communion with Rome who have received the same Apostolic Traditions. The Orthodox do not believe in or support the Latin notion of “doctrinal development”, and the Oriental Churches have different (Eastern) mindset about the doctrine of the faith. These differences in philosophy and world view were major factors in the schisms that exist today.

These Churches, having no love lost on Rome, hold Mary in the same high esteem, and have devotions to her that differ only in culture and language.

Was referring to a specific posting with regards to Catholic friends.

---

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Rev.8: 3

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

I don’t know or understand all of what Revelations contains and all of what it means, however as we go back to Chapter 7 and then read onward into Chapter 8 – is seems to be describing the prayers of the saints (those believers who were taken out of the tribulation and were in heaven before His throne)……I cannot see where it indicates that the angel or the 24 elders are acting as “intermediaries” in the sense that they are carrying prayers from people on earth to Jesus/God that had been directed to them specifically.

I don’t claim to be an expert on the Book of Revelation either. But, it seems to me that there is a definite link between the 24 elders, the angel and the prayers of the saints, otherwise they wouldn’t be mentioned together, don’t you think?
I

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

This particular prayer has little to do with the Pope being “grateful to Mary” – he is “imploring” her to have “pity” on the whole world that they may repent and return to her heart……stating he/we will not know to whom to turn……if we are deemed “ungrateful and unworthy children of her protection”……

My question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …Mary…or Jesus?

response guanophore:

You are creating an “either/or” where one does not exist.

The prayer says what it says….to equate going to Mary and seeking her pity and protection….as to being the same as to going to Jesus/God to seek their pity and protection….is to place her on the same “level” as them….and that’s not to be done.

**guanophore: **

Mary wants the whole world to believe in her Divine Son. She takes pity on all who are lost in faithlessness.

How do you know what Mary wants now or what she does now?

guanophore:

I would also add that we all start out being ungrateful and unworthy. It is only by Christ’s blood that we can be grateful to God, or to be made worthy in His sight.

Amen to that!

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Not at all, I understand what you mean Ag not.
Never a mention of Jesus/God – totally focused on Mary – in conversation as well as in the “visible” affects within their homes ie: pictures/statues/prayer cards.

Response mercygate:
Does this reflect the theology of the Catholic Church?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

• Catholic theology – Mariology - that the Catholic Church has developed over the centuries.

guanophore:
If you think this, then you will have to find a way to dispatch the same Apostolic teachings present outside the Church in communion with Rome. I look forward to that!

I don’t see why – as my quote you posted above was in reference to the above question posted by mercygate, in response to my answer to Ag not, about Catholic friends.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **** ****

I understand that these are not new theories by any means. As “doctrines” however – official “doctrines/dogmas” – a few have indeed “popped into being” – in the 19th and 20th century.

No.
Yes.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

** The Immaculate Conception:**

“We declare, pronounce and define that the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, by the singular grace and privilege of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, and that this doctrine was revealed by God, and therefore must be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful” Pope Pius IX Dec 8th, 1854 (papal bull).

guanophore:
If you think this is new, then you have a lot to learn about history.

See above. ******

As “official doctrines/dogmas” – they are “new” – the 19th/20th centuries.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

The Assumption of Mary:

The Assumption of Mary is held infallibly by both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. However, it was not until 1950 that it was officially pronounced a dogma by Pope Pius XII in his Papal Bull Munificentissimus Deus.

The official language states:

“We pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith” 1950

guanophore:

This is the case with all of the Apostolic Teachings. They do not become pronouncements until heresies arise that require such a statement be made.

What heresies arose that necessitated the “pronouncements” for the “Immaculate Conception” 1854 and the “Assumption” 1950 doctrines…and more recently/now…the “Co-Redemptrix,Co-Mediatrix, Advocate” doctrine process?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Me thinks you protest too much – YOU are the one that brought all this up in the first place and then above you state that “an attempt is being made to have it appear that the Catholic Church added bogus doctrines”….???

guanophore:
Be honest, Leeann. You have said from the beginning that these things were added by the Catholic Church, and that they are not authentic Apostolic Doctrine (bogus).

Again guanophore – when you read my response above to what was initially posted – you will see exactly why I responded that way……
I agree with you wholeheartedly here – about being honest and I’ve always stated exactly what I believe about the authenticity of those doctrines, - no “attempt” being made “to have it appear” – I’ve been very clear and direct in my opinions.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

How do you know what Mary wants now or what she does now?

As “official doctrines/dogmas” – they are “new” – the 19th/20th centuries.

Why would Mary want something now that is different from John 3:16?

Followers of Christ also believed in the Trinity before it became official doctrine. I suppose the Arians believed it was heresy, but than the Church believed the Arians were teaching heresy.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
There is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.
Jesus is willing and able and capable and DESIRING that we go to/through Him in prayer.

response guanophore:
This is true, but He is also desiring that we pray for one another, and it gladdens His heart when we do so.

Matt 8:5-13

When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” 8 The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.” 10 When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, “Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you according to your faith.” And the servant was healed in that hour."

Jesus honors the faith of those who come on behalf of others.

Yes He does.
The centurion didn’t pray to anyone at all – he went directly to Jesus.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

guanophore:
See? It is a Marian shrine, and a Marian prayer! You act like it is the only shrine or only kind of prayer! On the feast of Saints Peter and Paul, Benedict asked for their intercession. This is part of the custom of the feast days and memorials. We ask for the intercession of those we commemorate on that day.

Well that’s a topic for a whole other thread – all the other intercessory prayers being offered up.But this thread and the topic is about the Pope’s prayer to Mary.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

The shrine contains an image of Mary to which hundreds of miracles and healings are attributed.

guanophore:
Do you think this is a bunch of hooey?

Define hooey.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

In the homily delivered during Holy Mass today, the Pope evoked the figure of Bartolo Longo, who, like St. Paul, had persecuted the Church, “becoming militantly anticlerical and engaging in spiritualist and superstitious practices.”
Longo was a Satanist priest who later repented when he encountered the “true face of God,” the Holy Father said.
“Wherever God comes in this desert, flowers bloom,” said Benedict XVI. "Even Blessed Bartolo Longo, with his personal conversion, bears witness to this spiritual power that transforms man from within and makes him capable of doing great things according to God’s designs.

guanophore:
Do you think this is “Mary centered”?

Hhmmmm…well…it kind of all ties in together.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
“This city, which he re-founded is thus a historical demonstration of how God transforms the world: filling man’s heart with charity.”
“Here in Pompeii,” the Pope continued, "it is understood that love for God and love for neighbor are inseparable.
“Here at Mary’s feet, families rediscover or reinforce the joy of love that keeps them united.”
The secret of Pompeii, the Holy Father revealed, is the rosary: “This prayer leads us through Mary to Jesus.”

Again – there is no need to go through Mary to Jesus.

guanophore:

God chose to “need” Mary.

God chose to bless Mary …… no “need” involved.

guanophore:
I agree, He can do whatever He wants, however He likes. However, why spurn such a gracious and powerful gift?

If you are referring to “Mary” as this gift….I’ve never believed her to be such….so have never felt the need to “spurn” her.

]

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
“The rosary is a contemplative prayer that is accessible to all: great and small, lay people and clerics, cultured and uncultured,” he said. “The rosary is a spiritual weapon in the struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world.”

guanophore:
Do you disagree with this?

Yes.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

What do the Apostles say about our struggle against evil, against all violence, for peace in hearts, in families, in society and in the world?

Ephesians 6: 10 – 18
Hebrews 4: 14 – 16

And to whom do they point :

Colossians 2:6 – 9.

guanophore:
Do you think that Mary was not aware of, or used these sprititual weapons?

Referring to the bible verses above, I’m positive that Mary did! (not the verses themselves of course…but her awareness,etc.)

guanophore:

You seem so resistant to the possiblity that God may have made Mary a powerful intercessor on our behalf. I wonder why that is?

I’ve stated it before – because Jesus himself and the Apostles never attributed this to Mary.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

From Leeann:

I’ve stated it before – because Jesus himself and the Apostles never attributed this to Mary.

Um, yes, we know you’ve stated this before, dear.

You stated it. 2000 years later, you have decided to throw away 2000 years’ worth of teachings of the Christian faith and to insist that by your ‘personal’ judgment, looking at your ‘truncated’ Scripture and cherry picking verses out of context, that "Jesus and the apostles never attributed this to Mary’.

Never mind that you know that 'not everything Jesus said or taught is contained in Scripture" (because Scripture itself tells us this.)

Never mind that Christianity taught this and all Christians, even the very first of those who ‘protested’ various points of that Christian faith, accepted this.

Never mind. Leeann, in 2008, is absolutely sure and has guaranteed authority from the Holy Spirit to deny all Catholic teaching on any subjects she ‘believes’ are ‘wrong’ because, to put it succinctly, ‘she believes they are wrong.’ Leeann says so, therefore it is so, and that’s the proof?

Circular reasoning from an unauthoritative fallible woman is supposed to make us suddenly slap our foreheads and accept 'The Gospel according to Leeann’s interpretation of what Scripture taught about Mary which above all is 'anything but what Catholics say?"

I don’t think so.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

God chose to bless Mary …… no “need” involved.

Well, I suppose that technically God doesn’t “need” Jesus, Mary, Leeann, Claude or anyone else. But, in reality, that is not how He operates, is it? If it were, He would do all the “preaching” and “saving” on His own, and there would be no “need” for you or anyone else to be discussing this, would there?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Why wouldn’t those verses mention the saints, it’s just the same as in Philipians 4: 21-22. (these are fellow believers, alive and in the church at that time):

guanophore:
We take all the verses together, Leeann. When we read the NT, we don’t separate one part from another. We try to glean the meaning from all the parts together. This is the Catholic way of reading the scripture.

Heb 12:22-23
" But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect"

This passage is describing what we call the Church “Triumphant”. This is the part of the Church that has finished the race, completed the course. They are assembled in heaven, worshipping before the Lamb.

Yes……the above quote of mine was in response to Heb 13:22 -23 – which was what was posted in the original question – I realized after, that Claude meant to post Chapter 12 – so I responded accordingly to those verses also.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Mary was indeed blessed and favoured by God. God needed a woman (human) to fulfil His plan and Mary did faithfully and dutifully fulfilled the role that God had for her.

guanophore:
This is so odd. You agree that she is blessed and favored, and here you even say that “He needed” her. You affirm her faithfulness and obedience. Yet, you seem to believe that her “role” is ended.

God “needed” a woman (human) – to fulfill His plan of the “human/divine”.
Doesn’t seem odd to me at all.

Originally Posted by Leeann
But Jesus, nor the Apostles ever encouraged or taught or preached that it was necessary or even beneficial in anyway whatsoever to go to/through Mary in prayer to get to Jesus. (while she was with them on this earth - or after her death - (if you believed she died or not…I don’t know).

guanophore:
I believe you say things like this because you only have the Scriptures as evidence of what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

….and the Holy Spirit.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

Rev.8: 3

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

I don’t know or understand all of what Revelations contains and all of what it means, however as we go back to Chapter 7 and then read onward into Chapter 8 – it seems to be describing the prayers of the saints (those believers who were taken out of the tribulation and were in heaven before His throne)……I cannot see where it indicates that the angel or the 24 elders are acting as “intermediaries” in the sense that they are carrying prayers from people on earth to Jesus/God that had been directed to them specifically.

guanophore:
Which prayers do you think they are carrying?

**See above.

**

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

God “needed” a woman (human) – to fulfill His plan of the “human/divine”.
Doesn’t seem odd to me at all.

First you said Mary was not “needed.” Now, you say she is???
Which is it?

 

[ron77nyc]

Saying the Pope “ought” or “ought not” is pretty impetuous, if you ask me (and I note you did not )

Look at post #648

I said: “I would have felt much better if he prayed to the Father. Jesus always prayed to the Father and taught that to his disciples.”

If it is any consolation, I feel the same way!

 

[ron77nyc]

Maybe you should go back to it? Your mind appears to be functioning at about that stage. Only a child would make such judgements about others in such a manner.

CONDUCT RULES

1. Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks

I forgive you. :harp:

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

Rev.8: 3

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

I don’t know or understand all of what Revelations contains and all of what it means, however as we go back to Chapter 7 and then read onward into Chapter 8 – is seems to be describing the prayers of the saints (those believers who were taken out of the tribulation and were in heaven before His throne)……I cannot see where it indicates that the angel or the 24 elders are acting as “intermediaries” in the sense that they are carrying prayers from people on earth to Jesus/God that had been directed to them specifically.

**Claude Kenneson: **
I don’t claim to be an expert on the Book of Revelation either. But, it seems to me that there is a definite link between the 24 elders, the angel and the prayers of the saints, otherwise they wouldn’t be mentioned together, don’t you think?

Yes, but as for them acting as “intermediaries” – as having received prayers from people on earth directed to them – I don’t see that. (is that what you meant?)

**Leeann **
How do you know what Mary wants now or what she does now?

Claude Kenneson:
Why would Mary want something now that is different from John 3:16?

Fair enough, that’s what we should all as believers truly desire – and what about the second part of my question?

Leeann:

God “needed” a woman (human) – to fulfill His plan of the “human/divine”.
Doesn’t seem odd to me at all.

Claude Kenneson:
First you said Mary was not “needed.” Now, you say she is???
Which is it?

Originally guanophore:
God chose to “need” Mary.

Response Leeann:
God chose to bless Mary …… no “need” involved.
…

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Mary was indeed blessed and favoured by God. God needed a woman (human) to fulfil His plan and Mary faithfully and dutifully fulfilled the role that God had for her.

guanophore:
This is so odd. You agree that she is blessed and favored, and here you even say that “He needed” her. You affirm her faithfulness and obedience. Yet, you seem to believe that her “role” is ended.

Response Leeann:
God “needed” a woman (human) – to fulfill His plan of the “human/divine”.
Doesn’t seem odd to me at all.

…

I’m sorry….I didn’t make that clear….perhaps if the two statements were together…it would read as – God didn’t choose to “need” Mary specifically, He needed a woman(human) – to fulfill His plan of the “human/divine”. He chose to bless her.