Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Claude_Kenneson]

Yes, but as for them acting as “intermediaries” – as having received prayers from people on earth directed to them – I don’t see that. (is that what you meant?)

Did I misunderstand you to say that saints or Mary do not pray in heaven? If that is the case, how do the saints prayers get to heaven? If they are not praying from earth, from where are they praying? And how and why did the prayers get to the elders and the angel?

Or, are you making a case that saints do pray in heaven? Then, wouldn’t that include Mary? And wouldn’t that answer the rest of your question as to what is Mary now doing?

 

[Leeann]

Original Leeann:
Yes, but as for them acting as “intermediaries” – as having received prayers from people on earth directed to them – I don’t see that. (is that what you meant?)

Claude Kenneson:
Did I misunderstand you to say that saints or Mary do not pray in heaven?

I think you might be referring to a response I made to guan about “Mary’s role” being finished – I stated that perhaps her role is now “worshipping”.

Claude Kenneson:
If that is the case, how do the saints prayers get to heaven?
If they are not praying from earth, from where are they praying?
And how and why did the prayers get to the elders and the angel?

The saints as in “believers/Christians” here and now – how do their prayers get to heaven? –

Romans 8:V26 -27

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And of course:

Heb.4:14 – 16

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Claude Kenneson:
Or, are you making a case that saints do pray in heaven? Then, wouldn’t that include Mary? And wouldn’t that answer the rest of your question as to what is Mary now doing?

See above.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

I think you might be referring to a response I made to guan about “Mary’s role” being finished – I stated that perhaps her role is now “worshipping”.

The saints as in “believers/Christians” here and now – how do their prayers get to heaven? –

Romans 8:V26 -27

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And of course:

Heb.4:14 – 16

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

See above.

So why bother to pray at all if only the Holy Spirit and Christ can do it properly?

I’m also interested in knowing who those elders are in heaven and what connection they have to do with the prayers of the saints.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

P.S. On the other hand, if you are saying that this means that only the Holy Spirit and Christ are intercessors than wouldn’t that eliminate Paul’s needs for other Christians to pray for him (Heb. 13:18) and for Christians to make intercessions for kings and those in authority,( 1 Tim. 2:1); for Paul and Timothy to pray for the Colossians (Col. 1:9). And why would James (5:16) say that Christians should pray for one another? Also, why would God say it was necessary for Job to pray for Eliphas and his 2 friends (Job 42:8)? It seems to me that if the passages you quoted are to make sense, they could not be saying that there is no such thing as relative intercession.

 

[Leeann]

Claude Kenneson:
So why bother to pray at all if only the Holy Spirit and Christ can do it properly?

As true and faithful believers, are we not in communion with Christ and the Holy Spirit at all times…by faith we make our petitions known and trust that He will answer according to His Will.

Claude Kenneson:
I’m also interested in knowing who those elders are in heaven and what connection they have to do with the prayers of the saints.

I’m interested also in that.
What would be your understanding about it all?

 

[Leeann]

Claude Kenneson:

P.S. On the other hand, if you are saying that this means that only the Holy Spirit and Christ are intercessors than wouldn’t that eliminate Paul’s needs for other Christians to pray for him (Heb. 13:18) and for Christians to make intercessions for kings and those in authority,( 1 Tim. 2:1); for Paul and Timothy to pray for the Colossians (Col. 1:9). And why would James (5:16) say that Christians should pray for one another? Also, why would God say it was necessary for Job to pray for Eliphas and his 2 friends (Job 42:8)?

Believers have always been encouraged to pray for other’s needs – all of the references above are dealing with people who were here on earth. The Apostles and God, never encouraged people to pray to/through anyone else in heaven….except Jesus.

Claude Kenneson:
It seems to me that if the passages you quoted are to make sense, they could not be saying that there is no such thing as relative intercession.

“Relative” intercession? As pertaining to praying to/through Mary and others in heaven?
Or intercession as described in your first paragraph above in this posting – referring to those that were here on earth.

If you mean the latter – the verses I posted can pertain to personal prayer (regarding ourselves and our own needs) or to prayer that you are offering on behalf of someone else’s needs.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The Apostles and God, never encouraged people to pray to/through anyone else in heaven….except Jesus

Again, dear Leeann, this is your ‘personal’ opinion here. For in Christian Scripture (which includes Maccabees, for example) we are told it is a holy thing to pray for the dead. And we have in Christian teaching, including Scripture and the works of the early Church Fathers, as well as physical examples of prayers written in the catacombs while the Christian Church was ‘underground’ in its persecution, prayers to those (including Mary) who had died in the faith, ample witness that the ‘communion of saints’ of those who had died were indeed, as part of the body of Christ, still ‘part of’ the body of those who remained on earth. Our ‘communion’ with them is as full (more so) than our communion with those on earth. We ‘speak’ with them, we are aligned in worship of God with them, just as we are with those who worship here ‘on earth.’

So your personal, unsupported idea that ‘the apostles and God’ were never encouraging people to pray to/through anyone else in heaven is not supported by the Christian Church itself historically. In fact, this ‘new teaching’ of yours is not even accepted by all Protestant churches/denominations, and was not accepted, taught, or supported by even the earliest protestant founders.

It is, indeed a ‘new’ teaching. It is not the gospel which St. Paul taught to his followers by word of mouth and writing. It is in fact of denial of Christian teaching of the apostles, and of God.

 

[Leeann]

Tantum ergo:
It is in fact of denial of Christian teaching of the apostles, and of God.

It is in fact of denial of the Catholic Church’s teaching. (and any others that teach the same thing)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If you’re denying the teaching of the Catholic Church, Leeann, then you are denying God’s teachings in their fullness.

I haven’t given up on you, though. Quite the opposite. I find that the more vociferous and argumentative a person can be against the “evil Catholic Church and its ridiculous and bogus teachings”, the more often that in a relatively short period of time I’m hearing from that same person that they’ve actually found the truth and are coming “home to Rome.” God’s like that, you know. He isn’t looking for lukewarm people. You’re passionate for ‘the truth’ but what you’re arguing for right now isn’t the truth. Keep on being passionate for God and He’ll be sure to lead you to His Church. He knows what you need even if you’re SURE you don’t need it!

 

[Leeann]

Tantum ergo:

“evil Catholic Church and its ridiculous and bogus teachings”

Just for the record…those are Tantum ergo’s words…not mine.
Topic question:

Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

 

[guanophore]

We are indeed alive unto Him – and therefore have direct access to Him/God….and should be aware that He is sufficient and able and ready and willing to hear and answer our prayers.

Yes! That access does not change when we leave our physical bodies. god is generous, and shares his sufficiency, ability, and readiness to hear and answer prayers with His unworthy servants. He is glorified when we walk in the good works He has prepared for us.

Perhaps their ministries have changed….worshipping God?

I think not. I think we are all called upon to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. I think thing perhaps their ability to do so without impediment has changed. They are freed from any fetters, so their worship is more pure. This is the main reason we entreat their intercession, because they are not hindered in their prayers, and those of us in the flesh.

Yes……that would be right.

No, it is not right to think that “leaven” is always evil, or that the role of Mary in the Church is 'evil" or is spoiling the Church. What spoils is not what God has put in place, but people who have become uncentered. Your loved ones may be examples of this. Those persons that live in my area who believe that Our Lady of Guadelupe is the Pagan Goddess are the same way. They do not believe in Christ, but they beleive in the powers of the Goddess. The fault for this is not the Church, however.

Was referring to a specific posting with regards to Catholic friends.

Yes, I know, but the problem remains. If you wish to blame the Catholic Church for such “abuse”, then it is incumbent upon you to dispatch the other communities that practice the same Apostolic Teachings yet are antagonistic to Rome.

The prayer says what it says….

Indeed it does. But I can assure you that it means something very different to the one praying it than it does to you, listening to it. The same is true for scripture, which often meant something very different to the one writing than it does to the one reading it today. How we understand what we hear and read is dependent upon our own perceptions.
Leeann;4480540:

going to Mary and seeking her pity and protection….as to being the same as to going to Jesus/God to seek their pity and protection….is to place her on the same “level” as them….and that’s not to be done.

This is like saying …

Heb 13:7-8
" Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith."

1 Cor 11:1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

we should not imitate our elders. We should not be on their “level”. That is not to be done! Further, that those leaders and Apostles should not “imitate” Christ, as that puts them on the same 'level" as Christ. You have made a logical error. On the contrary, He has made us partakers of His grace.

How do you know what Mary wants now or what she does now?

For one, it has been revealed to us by the HS. For another, why would what she “wanted” change now that she has been freed from this fallen world? She has always been the handmaid of the Lord. Do you think she is less devoted now?

I don’t see why – as my quote you posted above was in  reference to the above question posted by mercygate, in response to my answer to Ag not, about Catholic friends.

Because you are asserting that the doctrines about Mary resulted from “development” (leaven) in the Catholic Church. Therefore it is incumbent upon you to show how this “leaven” also corrupted the Orthodox and Oriental communities that have no love lost on Rome.

As “official doctrines/dogmas” – they are “new” – the 19th/20th centuries.

I am sure it seems to you as though these ideas are new because you are unfamiliar with your own family history.

What heresies arose that necessitated the “pronouncements” for the “Immaculate Conception” 1854 and the “Assumption” 1950 doctrines…and more recently/now…the “Co-Redemptrix,Co-Mediatrix, Advocate” doctrine process?

Excellent questions, probably beyond the scopre of this thread. Are we in agreement that official pronouncements were a response to heresy?

Again guanophore – when you read my response above to what was initially posted – you will see exactly why I responded that way…..

I find that many of those who have the most problems with the role God has given Mary in the church have a deficit in the mothering capacity. Either they have had a very bad experience with an earthly mother, or do not understand what it is to mother someone. This may not be the case with you, but your tendency to separate Mary from Christ is puzzling.

 

[mercygate]

That statement is very revealing……the Catholic Church may be built upon the foundation of the Apostles……but “Christ” is the foundation of “His church”….true and faithful believers wherever they may worship.

I was referring to Rev. 12:21: And the wall of the city had twelvefoundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Also see Eph 2:20, where the household of God, namely, the Church, is “built upon thefoundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.”

You have frequently stated something like “the church is all true believers.” We agree, of courses, but recognize “true” elief as that which is consistent with the faith of the identifiable Church Christ has been building upon that visible foundation for 2000 years.

 

[mercygate]

Well it certainly reflects the Marian Theology that the Catholic Church has developed over the centuries.

No. You are piling a lot of things into one heap and labeling it according your personal observation. Catholic soteriology is not centered in Mary. True devotion to Our Lady is entirely derivative from the Person of Jesus Christ. You are allowing your own limited experience to overshadow the facts.

 

[mercygate]

I’m sorry….I didn’t make that clear….perhaps if the two statements were together…it would read as – God didn’t choose to “need” Mary specifically, He needed a woman(human) – to fulfill His plan of the “human/divine”. He chose to bless her.

Oh dear. The “fast-food container” version of Incarnation, also known as the incubator theory.

God also chose to “need” Simon of Cyrene to get Jesus up Calvary . . .

God does not “need” Mary or anybody else out of His own nonexistent insufficiency but out of His generosity. The Incarnation is about man paying the debt he, and only he owes but cannot pay. This is achieved by virtue of the hypostatic union. All of creation is “needed” to redeem what was lost by the first sin. Our Lady is uniquely co-operative in God’s New Creation.

 

[onenow1]

Hi,Leeann

?= onenow1, Would the Gospels even exist without Blessed Mary ?

Answer=Leeann, I’m sure God would have accomplished His plan with or without Mary.

Answer= onenow1, Indeed, but the plan was with Joseph and Blessed Mary, that God entrusted His Incarnate Son to.

Question=onenow1, Don’t we have to first believe the Apostles, and the stories they tell about Jesus, before we even begin to believe Jesus is indeed God ?

Answer= Leeann, It would help, wouldn’t it.

Observation = onenow1. Me thinks it would be necessary not just helpful, since this is the way Jesus chose to spread the gospel. Leann I think you failed to recognize the implications of the question.

You must first belive the apostles, before you can believe Jesus; And lastly you must believe the church, that has told us this.

I think it would be fair to ask you then, and I do. THIS: Since the church said scripture is guided by the Holy Spirit, what church do your trust in, when reading scripture ?

One more thing relevant more to this thread : John 19, where Jesus says to his mother, woman behold thy son ! Then to the disciple,behold thy mother !
=onenow1 That while Blessed Mary was at the foot of the cross I’m sure brought back memories of the Gabriels greeting to her on the annunciation, were realized vividly.;

I also think this ties in well with lukes gospel, Chpt.1: 32, He shall be great,son of the most high given the throne of David [King] Forever.

John 19: 19, Pilate wrote Jesus of Nazerath King of the Jews.
= onenow1, Her original Fiat completed with the Death and ressurection of our Lord.

Peace,onenow1

 

[Leeann]

Guanophore:
No, it is not right to think that “leaven” is always evil, or that the role of Mary in the Church is 'evil" or is spoiling the Church. What spoils is not what God has put in place, but people who have become uncentered. Your loved ones may be examples of this. Those persons that live in my area who believe that Our Lady of Guadelupe is the Pagan Goddess are the same way. They do not believe in Christ, but they beleive in the powers of the Goddess. The fault for this is not the Church, however.

I know what you’re saying, however it goes back to the “teachings” which the Catholic Church itself is responsible for – and will be – as any other church and their leaders/teachers/preachers will be – when the gospel message that was preached and taught by Jesus and that which He commissioned the Apostles to preach and teach, has been altered to such an extent that believers stray or become “confused” as to where they should be focusing their faith and attention.

Originally Posted by Leeann
The prayer says what it says….

guanophore:
Indeed it does. But I can assure you that it means something very different to the one praying it than it does to you, listening to it. The same is true for scripture, which often meant something very different to the one writing than it does to the one reading it today. How we understand what we hear and read is dependent upon our own perceptions.

It should be dependent upon the leading of the Holy Spirit.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
going to Mary and seeking her pity and protection….as to being the same as to going to Jesus/God to seek their pity and protection….is to place her on the same “level” as them….and that’s not to be done.

guanophore:
This is like saying …

Heb 13:7-8
" Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith."

1 Cor 11:1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

we should not imitate our elders. We should not be on their “level”. That is not to be done! Further, that those leaders and Apostles should not “imitate” Christ, as that puts them on the same 'level" as Christ.

Those verses don’t apply.
The Pope was not “imitating” the Apostles or Christ when he prayed to/through Mary, as they simply never did this.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I don’t see why – as my quote you posted above was in reference to the above question posted by mercygate, in response to my answer to Ag not, about Catholic friends.

guanophore:
Because you are asserting that the doctrines about Mary resulted from “development” (leaven) in the Catholic Church. Therefore it is incumbent upon you to show how this “leaven” also corrupted the Orthodox and Oriental communities that have no love lost on Rome.

Well, in this particular instance, if my friends were Orthodox or belonged to Oriental communities and followed their beliefs then I would be addressing those areas, however, they aren’t.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
What heresies arose that necessitated the “pronouncements” for the “Immaculate Conception” 1854 and the “Assumption” 1950 doctrines…and more recently/now…the “Co-Redemptrix,Co-Mediatrix, Advocate” doctrine process?

guanophore:
Excellent questions, probably beyond the scopre of this thread. Are we in agreement that official pronouncements were a response to heresy?

No more beyond the scope of this thread than any other queries or statements that have been made?

All the official pronouncements??? – other than the first one – Mother of God to clearly define Christ’s divinity. No, I don’t believe we are in agreement that all the pronouncements were in response to heresy.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Again guanophore – when you read my response above to what was initially posted – you will see exactly why I responded that way……

guanophore:
I find that many of those who have the most problems with the role God has given Mary in the church have a deficit in the mothering capacity. Either they have had a very bad experience with an earthly mother, or do not understand what it is to mother someone. This may not be the case with you, but your tendency to separate Mary from Christ is puzzling.

As it is as puzzling to me for the Pope to be praying to Mary, instead of approaching Christ’s throne of grace.
Perhaps there are many with “mother” issues that haven’t been dealt with yet?

---

 

[ron77nyc]

Leeann:
As it is as puzzling to me for the Pope to be praying to Mary, instead of approaching Christ’s throne of grace.
Perhaps there are many with “mother” issues that haven’t been dealt with yet?

---

How about father issues. As I’ve said before: Mother Mary says do whatever Jesus says and Jesus says pray to the Father.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
That statement is very revealing……the Catholic Church may be built upon the foundation of the Apostles……but “Christ” is the foundation of “His church”….true and faithful believers wherever they may worship.

mercygate:
I was referring to Rev. 12:21: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Also see Eph 2:20, where the household of God, namely, the Church, is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.”

The “church” and the “Church” (Catholic Church?) – see above.

mercygate:
You have frequently stated something like “the church is all true believers.” We agree, of courses, but recognize “true” elief as that which is consistent with the faith of the identifiable Church Christ has been building upon that visible foundation for 2000 years.

I understand, that’s been made quite clear, I just don’t agree.

---

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Well it certainly reflects the Marian Theology that the Catholic Church has developed over the centuries.

mercygate:
No. You are piling a lot of things into one heap and labeling it according your personal observation. Catholic soteriology is not centered in Mary. True devotion to Our Lady is entirely derivative from the Person of Jesus Christ. You are allowing your own limited experience to overshadow the facts.

I am expressing what is evident in my friends’ experiences and how they have embraced the Marian Theology to the point that their devotion and their faith in Mary, has overshadowed Christ.

Originally Posted by Leeann

I’m sorry….I didn’t make that clear….perhaps if the two statements were together…it would read as – God didn’t choose to “need” Mary specifically, He needed a woman(human) – to fulfill His plan of the “human/divine”. He chose to bless her.

mercygate:
Oh dear. The “fast-food container” version of Incarnation, also known as the incubator theory.

God also chose to “need” Simon of Cyrene to get Jesus up Calvary . . .

God does not “need” Mary or anybody else out of His own nonexistent insufficiency but out of His generosity. The Incarnation is about man paying the debt he, and only he owes but cannot pay. This is achieved by virtue of the hypostatic union. All of creation is “needed” to redeem what was lost by the first sin. Our Lady is uniquely co-operative in God’s New Creation.

I believe the Incarnation is about Jesus paying a debt that He *did not *owe……on behalf of us.
We need Him.

God doesn’t “need” any of us in the sense that if we don’t co-operate with Him, His plan will ultimately fail…

 

[Leeann]

onenow1:
Would the Gospels even exist without Blessed Mary ?

Response Leeann:
I’m sure God would have accomplished His plan with or without Mary.

Response onenow1:
Indeed, but the plan was with Joseph and Blessed Mary, that God entrusted His Incarnate Son to.

Indeed, and it has been fulfilled, by HIS grace and by HIS power.

onenow1:
Don’t we have to first believe the Apostles, and the stories they tell about Jesus, before we even begin to believe Jesus is indeed God ?

Response Leeann:
It would help, wouldn’t it.

Response onenow1:
Me thinks it would be necessary not just helpful, since this is the way Jesus chose to spread the gospel. Leann I think you failed to recognize the implications of the question.

You must first belive the apostles, before you can believe Jesus; And lastly you must believe the church, that has told us this.

By “church” – do you mean the Catholic Church – if so – no one “must believe” in anything that is not preached or taught by Jesus or the Apostles, such as praying to/through Mary.

onenow1:
I think it would be fair to ask you then, and I do. THIS: Since the church said scripture is guided by the Holy Spirit, what church do your trust in, when reading scripture?

Any “church” can say anything…some truth…”scripture being inspired by the Holy Spirit”….and some things that are not true.
I don’t trust any “church” in particular “when reading scripture”…my trust and faith is in God…and to test the scripture against any teaching/preaching ….believing and trusting that His Will and His Truth will be made known.

**onenow1: **
One more thing relevant more to this thread : John 19, where Jesus says to his mother, woman behold thy son ! Then to the disciple,behold thy mother !
That while Blessed Mary was at the foot of the cross I’m sure brought back memories of the Gabriels greeting to her on the annunciation, were realized vividly.;

We read it differently I guess.

onenow1:
I also think this ties in well with lukes gospel, Chpt.1: 32, He shall be great, son of the most high given the throne of David [King] Forever.

John 19: 19, Pilate wrote Jesus of Nazerath King of the Jews.
Her original Fiat completed with the Death and ressurection of our Lord.

These verses are all about JESUS.

 

[Leeann]

ron77yc
How about father issues. As I’ve said before: Mother Mary says do whatever Jesus says and Jesus says pray to the Father.

Yes, that too! Amen.

Prior to His death and resurrection Jesus said to pray to the Father in His name and after His death and resurrection the Apostles said to approach Him, our High Priest and His throne of grace boldly (not impudently, but with confidence in the sufficiency and completeness of His blood sacrifice).