Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[avenger]

Christ established ONE church; that is in Scripture. Therefore, if people are outside of that ONE church, they are not in a true church, but that doesn’t mean they can’t still be trying to follow God. The Pope still said nothing about them not following GOD just because of being in a church that was not the only TRUE Church. He only noted, quite correctly, that there is only One True Church.

but according to your guys, there is no salvation outside the church, so how can they follow God if outside of your church? Your point is inconsistent with your own church’s teachings.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

As a Catholic (at one time) you should know this, it is in the CCC.

**

**Outside the Church there is no salvation" **

[846](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/846.htm’) How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
[848](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/848.htm’) "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
**

 

[avenger]

As a Catholic (at one time) you should know this, it is in the CCC.

---

You actually proved my point. Assuming the Protestants left, which they did, then they have no salvation outside of your church, so how can they follow God outside of your church? Do you not see what you are saying is contradictory to what YOU JUST POSTED, and is inconsistent with you own churches teachings, AS I SAID. It seems I still know more about the RCC than you do.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

**

**Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **

[836](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/836.htm’) "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
[837](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/837.htm’) "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
[838](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/838.htm’) "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
**The Church and non-Christians **
[839](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/839.htm’) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
[840](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/840.htm’) And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
[842](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/842.htm’) The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

[843](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/843.htm’) The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
[844](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/844.htm’) In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
[845](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/845.htm’) To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

**

 

[Tantum_ergo]

As you see, your assertion has been disproven. I wish you knew more about the Church than you do, for then you would never have left.

 

[ron77nyc]

Good question. . .
There are none so blind as those who will not see, and none so deaf as those who will not hear.

I sincerely wish Leeann and ron well, though I am saddened that they have embraced error as truth and have closed eyes, ears, and minds when many, many Catholics such as I have given them legitimate, authoritative answers to their errors.

Protestant theology and teachings which contradict Catholic theology and teachings ultimately just don’t make sense, Biblically or otherwise.

Here is what I have said from the beginning of my participation on this thread:

1. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father
2. We can go directly to Jesus in prayer
3. If I or anyone else wanted to ask the saints to pray for us we can do that but it is not mandatory.

Does that contradict the teaching of the Church?

 

[avenger]

As you see, your assertion has been disproven. I wish you knew more about the Church than you do, for then you would never have left.

too bad your own pope does not subscribe to these things…it seems the usual catholic ploy of speaking out both side of the mouth.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It’s good ron but it isn’t the ONLY thing that you have said on this thread.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

As true and faithful believers, are we not in communion with Christ and the Holy Spirit at all times…by faith we make our petitions known and trust that He will answer according to His Will.

I’m interested also in that.
What would be your understanding about it all?

I think that the communion of true believers with Christ and the Holy Spirit do not end on earth, but continue in heaven. If they can make petitions for other Christians while here, why should it cease when they get to heaven? After all, aren’t they equally present with the Lord whether alive on earth or alive in heaven?

It seems to me that there are several possibilities as to the identity of the 24 elders. Some think they are angels, but I have some problems with that. I just don’t recall elders being anything but humans (i.e. in the Old Testament the 70 elders in Num. 12:25 and in the New in Titus 1:5 and elsewhere.) Also, I see mention of angels (including archangels, cherubim and seraphim in the Old Testament but not one mention of 24 elders).

Also, Rev. 7:11 distinguishes between the elders and the angels. Heb. 12:22 says there are myriads of angels, yet Rev. has a specific number of elders (24). Since ALL the angels are depicted as STANDING around the 24 elders, who are SEATED on thrones, I don’t see how the elders can also be angels, unless they are a new class we have never heard of before. Whatever the case, I also don’t recall angels ever seated on thrones.

Some people think that the elders refer to the 12 apostles and 12 leaders of the tribe of Israel per Rev. 21:12 and 14. Others that they represent the church/saints in heaven.

Whatever the case, the elders can act as intermediaries to humans (in this case John) as Rev. 5:4-5 shows. They are also shown as presenting the prayers of the saints on earth to God, which indicates to me that prayers do indeed reach God through others (even through those in heaven). Rev. 5:8

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Careful, Avenger. That last speech of yours should be reported. It is neither true nor Christian to say that Catholics practice a ‘usual ploy of speaking out of both sides of the mouth’ and as a Catholic, I utterly repudiate this statement.

 

[mark_a]

Here is what I have said from the beginning of my participation on this thread:

1. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father
2. We can go directly to Jesus in prayer
3. If I or anyone else wanted to ask the saints to pray for us we can do that but it is not mandatory.

Does that contradict the teaching of the Church?

I hope you are correct because this is my understanding too.

 

[avenger]

Careful, Avenger. That last speech of yours should be reported. It is neither true nor Christian to say that Catholics practice a ‘usual ploy of speaking out of both sides of the mouth’ and as a Catholic, I utterly repudiate this statement.

Repudiate what you like…but it has been exemplified in this thread alone!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You are, then, accusing Catholics on this thread of such a practice as a ‘ploy of speaking out of both sides of their mouth?’

Care to give specific examples?

 

[avenger]

You are, then, accusing Catholics on this thread of such a practice as a ‘ploy of speaking out of both sides of their mouth?’

Care to give specific examples?

Sure, in this thread alone…I offer what your pope states about non-Catholic churches, you say this isnt the case, and give CCC references, which contradict what your own pope stated…thereby trying to have itboth ways, or speaking out both side of the RCC mouth. Clear enough?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You did not give what the Pope said. You gave a snippet, undated, of a man describing something about what the Pope said.

Show me what the Pope actually said, in full context. Give me the speech and prove that it contradicted the teaching I posted from the CCC.

Until then, you’re only making assertions, not ‘proving’ anything.

 

[avenger]

You did not give what the Pope said. You gave a snippet, undated, of a man describing something about what the Pope said.

Show me what the Pope actually said, in full context. Give me the speech and prove that it contradicted the teaching I posted from the CCC.

Until then, you’re only making assertions, not ‘proving’ anything.

sigh…fine, since you dont know what your own pope said…

news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf

 

[guanophore]

Believers have always been encouraged to pray for other’s needs – all of the references above are dealing with people who were here on earth. The Apostles and God, never encouraged people to pray to/through anyone else in heaven….except Jesus.

I think you say things like this because you are limited to the Apostolic Teaching you can glean from the Scripture. However we can see from the Liturgies and the early prayers that the Apostles made no distinctions when asking intercession if the saint was alive or dead.

If you mean the latter – the verses I posted can pertain to personal prayer (regarding ourselves and our own needs) or to prayer that you are offering on behalf of someone else’s needs.

At least we are in agreement about the nature of intercession and supplication.

It is in fact of denial of the Catholic Church’s teaching. (and any others that teach the same thing)

No, it is a denial of Apostolic Teaching. This practice is found in other Apostolic churches who are not in communion with Rome. A person who denies this teaching as a “catholic innovation” is obligated to explain it away from those other communities founded by Apostles.

I know what you’re saying, however it goes back to the “teachings” which the Catholic Church itself is responsible for – and will be – as any other church and their leaders/teachers/preachers will be – when the gospel message that was preached and taught by Jesus and that which He commissioned the Apostles to preach and teach, has been altered to such an extent that believers stray or become “confused” as to where they should be focusing their faith and attention.

Ahh. This makes a lot of sense. However, you are placing blame where it does not belong. It is not the Church Teaching itself that has been the problem, but very poor catechesis. There is a history behind this that may not interest you, but suffice it to say that the encroachment of modernism into the Latin Rite, especially here in America, has resulted in uncounted abuses and very poor catechesis. I am not excusing the wrong that has been done, but it is an error to ascribe the improper teaching that has occurred in catechism to the Teachings of the Church, which were not properly adhered to by the catechist. You are right to object to error being taught.

Leeann:
It should be dependent upon the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I agree. The problem is that one “hears” the HS through one’s own mind and heart. The perceptions of mankind are influenced by a person’s experiences and education.
Those verses don’t apply.
The Pope was not “imitating” the Apostles or Christ when he prayed to/through Mary, as they simply never did this.

You seem to believe that they did not, because you are going off very limited evidence. In fact, the Pope was imitating the Apostles and Christ.

Leeann:
Well, in this particular instance, if my friends were Orthodox or belonged to Oriental communities and followed their beliefs then I would be addressing those areas, however, they aren’t.

I understand this, but it would be a mistake to think these beliefs and practices are a result of something “catholic”, as opposed to something Apostolic.
No more beyond the scope of this thread than any other queries or statements that have been made?

Since we are over the post limit for this thread, can we take the need for pronouncement of the IC to another thread? That is, if you are really interested…

Leeann:
All the official pronouncements??? – other than the first one – Mother of God to clearly define Christ’s divinity. No, I don’t believe we are in agreement that all the pronouncements were in response to heresy.

Sounds like an excellent place to begin our next thread.
As it is as puzzling to me for the Pope to be praying to Mary, instead of approaching Christ’s throne of grace.

Yes. I am sure it is. Such puzzlement results from the dividing and separating fruit of the Reformation. For members of Apostolic faiths, we believe that the saints are before the throne of grace, and carry our prayers with them. There is no “instead” in approaching the throne. We approach together with them.

Leeann:
Perhaps there are many with “mother” issues that haven’t been dealt with yet?

Clearly.

Any “church” can say anything…some truth…”scripture being inspired by the Holy Spirit”….and some things that are not true.
I don’t trust any “church” in particular “when reading scripture”…my trust and faith is in God…and to test the scripture against any teaching/preaching ….believing and trusting that His Will and His Truth will be made known.

What you are saying is that you have made yourself the ultimate authority of what it means.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Um, that link was from September 2006 and had nothing to say about Protestants and Churches. You’d better try again.

 

[avenger]

Um, that link was from September 2006 and had nothing to say about Protestants and Churches. You’d better try again.

That wasnt the Munich speech? My mistake…I will get it for you…

 

[ron77nyc]

It’s good ron but it isn’t the ONLY thing that you have said on this thread.

If you’re referring to the thing I wrote about the popes not emphasizing Jesus, I may have been overly offensive to you on that one occasion so I apologize for that with an explanation. That was my experience with the Church. If there is more I’m sorry for that too. I didn’t know until now that you are a woman. Sometimes I get a little defensive.