Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[guanophore]

So are you saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe that praying to/through Mary is proper – that they don’t teach this – and that they don’t vigorously support and present this as well as other abilities afforded to Mary in their teachings – even though Jesus and the Apostles never taught or preached or suggested it?

I would say this that Mary does not have the central role in Catholic theology that you seem to have gleaned from your imbalanced loved ones. What the Catholic Church teaches is that Jesus came to die for our sins, so that we can be reconciled to God. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. This is why everything in it represents Catholic Teaching, which existed before, during, and after the writing of the Holy Scripture. Mary is not the center of the Catholic faith. Jesus is.

I’m with you on that - it can’t…we’ve got the book, we know the outcome!

I agree with you. but the “book” was written by those God chose to “need”.

There you go – Simon cooperated without any special “blessings” – just as other believers have and will do….

How do you know he did not get any special blessings?

 

[mercygate]

Nope, and how in the world, in all logic, is that even remotely consistent?

How is it consistent? How is it inconsistent?

The Catholic Church, with the successors of Peter as the sign of unity under the headship of Christ, is the centerpiece and the full manifestation of Christ’s promised church.

The Churches of the East, having bishops in legitimate, unbroken succession from Apostolic times, and maintaining Apostolic Holy Orders and sacramental practice, are “true particular churches.”

Other communities that take the name of Christ have abandoned, deny or reject much that is held by “true churches” – chiefly Apostolic succession and the sacramental economy of grace. Therefore, they are ‘defective’ by virtue of an incomplete ecclesiology or through varying degrees of heretical teaching, or both.

While the Holy Spirit may confer saving grace through these congregations, He does so by exception rather than by promise. He is very generous.

 

[mercygate]

You actually proved my point. Assuming the Protestants left, which they did, then they have no salvation outside of your church, so how can they follow God outside of your church? Do you not see what you are saying is contradictory to what YOU JUST POSTED, and is inconsistent with you own churches teachings, AS I SAID. It seems I still know more about the RCC than you do.

I believe your confusion lies in thinking that the Catholic Church is something like a denomination – one of many more or less equivalent groups that claim some kind of organizational autonomy and that identify themselves by an agreed upon confession of faith.

That is not how the ancient Apostolic churches define “church”. For Catholics, the Church is a mystical body with Christ at its Head, visible on earth through union with the Apostles, and in communion with the successor of Peter.

 

[avenger]

I believe your confusion lies in thinking that the Catholic Church is something like a denomination – one of many more or less equivalent groups that claim some kind of organizational autonomy and that identify themselves by an agreed upon confession of faith.

That is not how the ancient Apostolic churches define “church”. For Catholics, the Church is a mystical body with Christ at its Head, visible on earth through union with the Apostles, and in communion with the successor of Peter.

good luck with that

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Can you show that the Church is NOT what Catholics claim? You know you need to show that if it is not, there must have been a historical church that can show apostolic succession that has existed for 2000 years and taught denominational ‘group’ teaching. And then why wouldn’t you belong to that church?

 

[guanophore]

Of course, and she is always to be honored for that…but not in an overboard fashion as you guys do it. I bet she would be the first to try to get you to stop!

What exactly did you think was “overboard”?

sure you do, you put a man’s, your pope, in place of Christ.

A vicar is charged with acting upon the authority of the King, He does not replace the King. He acts on behalf of the King when the King is away.

I have, and I am trying to get you to see it too!

CAF is not a venue for you to try to pursuade Catholics to believe as you do. It is a ministry to provide Catholic answers to genuine questions about the faith. If you have come here for the purpose of attacking and converting Catholics, then you are in the wrong forum.

but according to your guys, there is no salvation outside the church, so how can they follow God if outside of your church? Your point is inconsistent with your own church’s teachings.

Who are the “your guys” you keep referencing? Jesus chose to save the world through His own Body. He only has One. There is One Body, one Church. All who are members of Christ are members of His One Body. What is inconsistent is your understanding of the facts.

Been there, done that…never again, God willing

No, I think not. You have already demonstrated a vast ignorance of the Catholic faith. It is likely that you were very poorly catechized, and were sucked out by an anti-Catholic influence. This is not uncommon.

I believe I just did…did not your pope call them untrue churches?

Yes. Jesus has only One Body. There is only One Faith, One Baptism, and One Church. The Pope was being blunt, but this is the Apostolic teaching.

too bad your own pope does not subscribe to these things…it seems the usual catholic ploy of speaking out both side of the mouth.

You have misunderstood the Pope, and the Teaching of the Church. There is no conflict.

You actually proved my point. Assuming the Protestants left, which they did, then they have no salvation outside of your church, so how can they follow God outside of your church?

Protestants left because they felt the need to rebel against the authority appointed by Christ. There is no salvation outside of Christ. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. However, there are many that follow God, and do not realize that they do so by the grace dispensed through His Church.

Do you not see what you are saying is contradictory to what YOU JUST POSTED, and is inconsistent with you own churches teachings, AS I SAID. It seems I still know more about the RCC than you do.

No, we do not see it that way at all. It seems contradictory to you because you do not understand one, the other, or both. You are ignorant. This is not a sin. However, blaming what you don’t understand on others makes you look petty, as well as uneducated. Your statements have made it clear that you know very little about Catholicism.

too bad your own pope does not subscribe to these things…it seems the usual catholic ploy of speaking out both side of the mouth.

The fact that you don’t seem to understand that the Pope is echoing whatis in the Catechism makes it clear the the double mindedness is your own.

Sure, in this thread alone…I offer what your pope states about non-Catholic churches, you say this isnt the case, and give CCC references, which contradict what your own pope stated…thereby trying to have itboth ways, or speaking out both side of the RCC mouth. Clear enough?

No, avenger, what we have tried to help you understand is that your perceptions are not accurate. What the Pope said is Catholic. This is what the Apostles have taught since the day of Pentecost. The references in the CCC only contradict in your own mind, because you do not understand what is being said.

I believe I just did…did not your pope call them untrue churches?

Because they are not true churches. The signs of the true church is that it is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. To one degree or another, all of the non-Catholic communities fail in these areas.

 

[mercygate]

"mercygate:

*I believe your confusion lies in thinking that the Catholic Church is something like a denomination – one of many more or less equivalent groups that claim some kind of organizational autonomy and that identify themselves by an agreed upon confession of faith.

That is not how the ancient Apostolic churches define “church”. For Catholics, the Church is a mystical body with Christ at its Head, visible on earth through union with the Apostles, and in communion with the successor of Peter.*

good luck with that

I do not understand your comment. Are you simply rejecting the Catholic and Apostolic understanding of the church our of hand? Or do you, in fact, believe that “true churches” are basically an organizational convenience with doctrinal distinctions? Or perhaps you believe the “true church” is invisible and comprises all “true believers” – whatever the nuance of their credal system?

 

[avenger]

“A vicar is charged with acting upon the authority of the King, He does not replace the King. He acts on behalf of the King when the King is away.”

This is even more nonsense, for bishops do NOT have apostolic authority. Even Roman scholars admit that the notion depends on whether or not Peter went to Rome and became its first bishop… and this is down to myth and legend, for there is no historical evidence for it

“Who are the “your guys” you keep referencing? Jesus chose to save the world through His own Body. He only has One. There is One Body, one Church. All who are members of Christ are members of His One Body. What is inconsistent is your understanding of the facts.”

For the nth time, the Body is ALL believers, NOT just the RCC denomination.

“No, I think not. You have already demonstrated a vast ignorance of the Catholic faith. It is likely that you were very poorly catechized, and were sucked out by an anti-Catholic influence. This is not uncommon.”

More Catholic diatribe to those who can strongly disagree and prove why. I was a catechist, as a matter of fact, and you have proven me in error Scripturally in NOTHING. I was not sucked out as you Catholic always assume, but left after lengthy prayer and reflection on the Word of God.

“Protestants left because they felt the need to rebel against the authority appointed by Christ. There is no salvation outside of Christ. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. However, there are many that follow God, and do not realize that they do so by the grace dispensed through His Church.”

No, they left because of bona fide threats to the faith, that you cannot deny. True, there is no salvation outside of Christ, but nowhere is Scripture does it say it has to be through ANY church, let alone the RCC,

“No, we do not see it that way at all. It seems contradictory to you because you do not understand one, the other, or both. You are ignorant. This is not a sin. However, blaming what you don’t understand on others makes you look petty, as well as uneducated. Your statements have made it clear that you know very little about Catholicism.”

What exactly dont I know about Catholicism? It is you my friend who are blinded by your hieracrhy. Where am I ignorant of Catholic teaching? Typical Catholic diatribe.

“No, avenger, what we have tried to help you understand is that your perceptions are not accurate. What the Pope said is Catholic. This is what the Apostles have taught since the day of Pentecost. The references in the CCC only contradict in your own mind, because you do not understand what is being said.”

Unfortunately, your instance does not make it so. The two statements are LOGICALLY opposed to each other, no semantics will change it. Your condecending tone is most annoying by the way. Have the guts to be straight forward, without feigning concern or patience.

“Because they are not true churches. The signs of the true church is that it is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. To one degree or another, all of the non-Catholic communities fail in these areas.”

One…all believers are One. Holy, all believers can be holy thought the grace of God, not a church. Catholic, is universal, not your denomination, Apostolic, by following the teachings in Scripture, all believers follow apostolic teaching.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Again, avenger, you show that you neither understand Catholic teaching nor seek to understand it.

You still haven’t shown any examples other than unsupported assertions that the Church ‘contradicts herself’, either in speechs of the Pope any examples where the Church had taught something and then ‘reversed itself’ or indeed that anything the Church teaches is antiScriptural.

 

[avenger]

Again, avenger, you show that you neither understand Catholic teaching nor seek to understand it.

You still haven’t shown any examples other than unsupported assertions that the Church ‘contradicts herself’, either in speechs of the Pope any examples where the Church had taught something and then ‘reversed itself’ or indeed that anything the Church teaches is antiScriptural.

Try being specific…point out where I dont understand Catholic teaching.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Specific? Actually, I cannot think of a single post you have made in which you have presented Catholic teachings correctly.

 

[avenger]

Specific? Actually, I cannot think of a single post you have made in which you have presented Catholic teachings correctly.

Again…be specific.

 

[mercygate]

Specific? Actually, I cannot think of a single post you have made in which you have presented Catholic teachings correctly.

I, too, have found avenger’s presentation to be difficult to correlate with actual Catholic teaching.

The idea that Peter’s primacy is “myth and legend” simply does not withstand scrutiny. The paper trail goes back to the early second century: within living memory of the Apostles. Ignatius, Irenaeus, and many others note Peter’s residence and martyrdom in Rome. This is not dismissible.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I was.

You have made post after post after post claiming that Catholics are wrong in their interpretations of Scripture, that the Pope contradicts Catholic teaching, Catholics cannot follow God, etc.

As I said, I can’t think of a single post where you have stated the truth about a Catholic teaching; even when you start out with something that is correct, such as that outside the Church there is no salvation, you then go to state that it means the Church condemns Protestants, which is not the case.

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

No amount of “tradition” can bring truth to “a different gospel message”.

Again I ask – to whom would the Apostles point too – Mary….or Jesus?

Hi, Leeann. I will try to answer the original question.
To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?
If you asked an Apostle, they would probably point to Jesus. However, if I asked one of them if I could ask Mary for her intercession to get to Jesus, because prayer to saints is encouraged in the Catholic Church, they would probably say, “Yes, that is an acceptable and encourageable practice.”

Take a look at my sig line. “Ite ad Ioseph…” “Go to Joseph…”
This verse from Genesis has long been used in reference to St. Joseph, that is, Ask St. Joseph for your request. St. Joseph can do NOTHING without Christ. If I pray to St. Joseph, he will ask his Foster Son, who might grant the request. The result if the prayer happened THROUGH St. Joseph.

The reason Catholics look to Saints as well as Christ is because the Saints are our role models in the faith. The bishops of the Catholic Church tell us this is okay, and we believe they are the successors to the Apostles. IMO, this means they are living apostles who have valid succession. There is continuity, and I believe the Catholic Church will never lead us from the truth.

Pax et bonum, Ioseph

 

[avenger]

I, too, have found avenger’s presentation to be difficult to correlate with actual Catholic teaching.

The idea that Peter’s primacy is “myth and legend” simply does not withstand scrutiny. The paper trail goes back to the early second century: within living memory of the Apostles. Ignatius, Irenaeus, and many others note Peter’s residence and martyrdom in Rome. This is not dismissible.

Sure it is dismissible as scholars still cant agree Peter was ever in Rome.

 

[avenger]

I was.

You have made post after post after post claiming that Catholics are wrong in their interpretations of Scripture, that the Pope contradicts Catholic teaching, Catholics cannot follow God, etc.

As I said, I can’t think of a single post where you have stated the truth about a Catholic teaching; even when you start out with something that is correct, such as that outside the Church there is no salvation, you then go to state that it means the Church condemns Protestants, which is not the case.

Ok, so you cannot be specific…so move on

 

[mercygate]

Sure it is dismissible as scholars still cant agree Peter was ever in Rome.

Sorry. That horse has been dead for nearly 100 years.

And don’t forget the bones. See *The Bones of St. Peter *by John Evangelist Walsh for a review of the 20th century excavations of the necropolis beneath St. Peter’s Basilica.

 

[avenger]

Sorry. That horse has been dead for nearly 100 years.

And don’t forget the bones. See *The Bones of St. Peter *by John Evangelist Walsh for a review of the 20th century excavations of the necropolis beneath St. Peter’s Basilica.

mtc.org/bones_p.html

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Why don’t you repeat again what you said about Catholic teaching regarding "outside the Church there is no salvation.’ Show me you can give authentic Catholic teaching correctly.