Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[nbtb1348]

Hello nbtb 1348

Thank you for taking the time to post!

I commend you on your understanding of and commitment to honoring Scripture, under the Holy Spirit’s illlumination, as our authority and guide.

 

[jlhargus]

Leeann: If we search the gospels, we will find no record of Jesus or the Apostles having encouraged the early believers to pray to anyone else in heaven other that God.

JL: 1Tim5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. [Isn’t Paul also calling on angles as witnesses.]

Leeann: Paul is writing to Timothy and addressing him. He is not praying to God/Jesus or the angels.

JL: Speaking or writing, Paul is giving Timothy a charge and calls, not only on God and Christ, but angles as witnesses. I CHARGE YOU, IN THE SIGHT OF.

JL: Ps 103:20 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. 21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will. [Isn’t the author asking angles to praise the Lord]

Leeann: In Ps148 Praise Him, all His angels, Praise Him, all His Hosts, Praise Him, Sun and Moon, Praise Him, all you stars of light……in the context you are applying, that would mean that the author is also asking the Sun and the Moon to praise Him……as you read further on…it includes fruitful trees and all cattle….

JL: I was not quoting Ps148 but Ps103. However Paul is calling on angles, who have a will, in Ps 148 also. Paul also calls on created objects, which do praise God, without a will.

JL: Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. [Wouldn’t the angels serve as the childs intercessor or advocate before God, otherwise what is the point?]

Leeann: There is no indication that the children were praying to angels.

JL: Point is angles can and do interceed for them. Otherwise why should anyone take heed?

JL: Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne 4: and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. [From the hand of the angel the prayers of the saints on earth are offered up to God. My opinion the angel adds to the prayers of the saints (incense) to make them more pleasing to God.]

Leeann: I don’t know that the prayers of the saints need anything added to them to make them more pleasing to God, but that may be so…however these verses don’ t support praying to anyone other than to God/Jesus.

JL: How do the angles get the prayers? Those prayers are going from the saints on earth thru angels, not directly to Christ or God. Sometimes, going thru hard times my prayers need a lot added to them, it isn’t a faith issue though.

JL: RV 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. [They are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth isn’t that interceding. Harps adding to the prayers of the saints.]

Leeann: But what has that got to do with “praying” with regards to my quote that you posted above?

JL: Again prayers of earthly saints are going thru BOTH angles and heavenly saints, not directly to Christ or God.

JL: LK 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance… 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. [Saints in heaven know when a sinner repents and rejoice in the presence of angels. We are a people not just lone individuals, it is not Jesus and me, but God and us the entire body of Christ through which the Spirit flows, by being united to that one and only body we all receive the grace to persevere. 1Cor12:14: For the body is not one member, but many. 1 COR 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body but that the members should have the same care one for another.]

Leeann: From those verses you quoted, it is evident that the angels are indeed aware and full of joy over sinners that repent…but again this has nothing to do with “praying” or with regards to the quote

JL: Who rejoices IN THE PRESENCE OF ANGELS? if not the souls of saints in heaven? Do you suppose they wouldn’t pray for the conversion of all souls on earth? Do you suppose saints in heaven have forgotten their children or grand children, sorta, forget you I got mine attitude?

Leeann: I agree that we are all members, joined together, of one body – Christ, through which the Spirit flows…true and faithful believers….regardless of what church/denomination ones belongs too.

JL: I also agree we are all members of one body, some only spiritually, as they are separated from the one visible body. What happens to those saints who’s souls are in heaven? Are they no longer members of the one body and bride of Christ? [1Cor 12:25 That there should be no schism in the BODY but that the MEMBERS SHOULD HAVE THE SAME CARE ONE FOR ANOTHER. Hb12:22 But YOU HAVE COME TO Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD. You have come to thousands upon thousands of ANGLES in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come TO GOD, the judge of all men, to THE SPIRITS OF RIGHTEOUS MEN made perfect, 24 TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.] Eph 3:14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom HIS WHOLE FAMILY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH derives its name. I come by prayer to all of these. I have total access to the holy of holies and God’s whole family in heaven or earth. I may go directly to God or ask anyone of his to pray for me.

 

[nbtb1348]

By no means! Don’t you remember? He said that all those who hear the word of God and keep it are his mother, his brother, etc. He is grafting us all into the family!

What do you think happened at the wedding in Cana?

How was Mary so sure He would respond in the most perfect way?

She was privileged to bear Him into the world, and followed HIm right through to the foot of the cross. Don’t you ever wonder that He did not appear to Mary after He rose? Maybe He did, and it was not written. Maybe that was one of the things she hid in her heart. Or, maybe she was the only one that believed Him, and did not go to the tomb because she knew He would be gone!

As you say, we are all able to crush the serpents head because of what Jesus did for us.

I can’t notice that is the case, so I could not say.

I believe it seems that way to outsiders because most Protestants have a very deficient understanding of prayer and worship.

By no means! Don’t you remember? He said that all those who hear the word of God and keep it are his mother, his brother, etc. He is grafting us all into the family!
Guano wrote…
“What do you think happened at the wedding in Cana?
How was Mary so sure He would respond in the most perfect way?”

You make the mistake of not distinguishing between his earthly role as God in the flesh and his heavenly role as exalted Lord.
but of course Mary knew how He would respond. She was his earthly mother and raised him!

Guano wrote…
“Protestants have a very deficient understanding of prayer and worship.”

I’m afraid if you stood in the presence of the corporate worship I know (and I am not Pentecostal, by the way), you would be like Michal as she watched David worship when he brought the ark back. Do you remember?==
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. "
And do you remember Michal’s reaction to this glorious worship?–
“And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and **she despised him in her heart. **”

And do you remember what she reaped?–
“Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.”

I have seen many Catholics who cannot handle the worship of those who know they are born again. They cannot relate to it. It just doesn’t quite make sense. There may well be barrenness in their lives as well

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Perhaps the insistence the Apostles displayed in pointing the early believers to Jesus/God in prayer and not anyone else is an indication of attempting to correct this “practice”? You do mean this “early” don’t you?

guanophore:
The Apostles, accustomed as they were to the sense of being in communion with the saints, probably never fathomed that anyone would have a problem with their intercession.

It is like many other things that would absolutely boggle their minds that are commonplace today, for example, the assertion made many times on these threads that Baptism has nothing to do with water. It never occurred to them to write about it, as it seemed like a given.

I agree, there are many practices that would boggle the Apostles minds, hence the “thread topic question” – addressing the assertion made that Christians should be turning to anyone other than Jesus/God when they are in any sort of need, etc.

Originally Posted by Leeann
By that standard…there is not only plenty of evidence but plenty of corollaries for almost “anything” one would look for.

guanophore:
I agree, however, “almost everything” is not found in the One Divine Deposit of Faith handed on to us by the Apostles.

How would anyone ever be able to tell?

Originally Posted by Leeann
If you are using the term “communion of saints” as is used by the Catholic Church, that is simply untrue, as the Apostles never encouraged the practice of praying to anyone other that God/Jesus.

guanophore:
I can accept that you do not believe it, and cannot see the truth of it. This is not unexpected, since you have been separated from the Apostolic Succession, and your access to their teachings is limited to what you can see in the Scripture. however, the Communion of saints is real,a nd was believed and taught by them.

What is revealed in scripture has never been limited to any true and faithful believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, the O.T./N.T., all inspired by the Holy Spirit and to be used to “test” any practices of any church/denomination against. That is why it is clear that the Catholic understanding and teaching of the “Communion of saints” is not what the Apostles believed or taught.

Originally Posted by Leeann
I understand that this is what you have been taught and what you believe to be true within the Catholic faith, however, as you are aware, there are others Christians - “of Christian faith” where what you have posted above is not accepted as fact.

guanophore:
Yes, this is understandible. Most Christians have no idea where there beliefs originated. They look into the scripture, and read out what has been taugth to them, and believe it came from God.

But, as we can see, using the individual mind to privately interpret the scripture results in more and more divisions, and more and more distance from what the Apostles believed and taught, such as the communion of saints. There was not a Christian for 1600 years that did not accept this teaching of the Apostles, until men decided to jettison the Apostolic Teaching and form a different gospel.

There are also divisions within the Catholic Church, as to understanding what is being taught and various understandings that come from the “one teaching” that is taught, read back over some of the previous postings.
As for there “not being a Christian for 1600 years” – there is no evidence as to this being true, as we covered before, some may have been doing this, but it didn’t make it correct. We’re talking about the teaching and practices of the Apostles of the early believers of the very first churches, where the Apostles did as they were commissioned by Jesus to do and made it clear and evident where all Christians….both then and now…should be directing their concerns too…Jesus/God.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Of course He is glorified and the Apostles encouraged us to pray together and for one another.

guanophore:
Why would you imagine that they would stop praying, just because they had gone on to be with the Lord?

I haven’t said that they have stopped praying. But that has nothing to do with us praying to/through them.

guanophore:
By the way, since you reject the Apostolic instruction on the communion of saints, how to you explain the appearances of saints such as Samuel, Elijah, and Moses? How is it that they were aware of events on earth, and could communicate with people here about these things?

I reject the Catholic Church’s claim of the “communion of saints” which instructs that we can and should pray to/through them. The Apostles never taught that.

You’ll see in past posts - #165 - #173 and another I think after that. I’m sorry, I don’t mean that to sound like I’m just shuffling it off…it’s just too many and too long to repost.

---

 

[guanophore]

You make the mistake of not distinguishing between his earthly role as God in the flesh and his heavenly role as exalted Lord.

Did I?

Did Mary do the same?

So, which “role” was He in when she went to Him about the problem?

but of course Mary knew how He would respond. She was his earthly mother and raised him!

You are making my case for me! :dancing:

Guanophore:

…
“Protestants have a very deficient understanding of prayer and worship.”

I’m afraid if you stood in the presence of the corporate worship I know (and I am not Pentecostal, by the way), you would be like Michal as she watched David worship when he brought the ark back. Do you remember?==
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. "
And do you remember Michal’s reaction to this glorious worship?–
“And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and **she despised him in her heart. **”

And do you remember what she reaped?–
“Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.”

I don’t despise Protestant worship, nb. My separated brethren have taught me a great deal about prayer and worship that has greately enriched my life.

I have seen many Catholics who cannot handle the worship of those who know they are born again. They cannot relate to it. It just doesn’t quite make sense. There may well be barrenness in their lives as well

It may also be because Catholics are centered around a very different kind of worship, not one of our own creation, but that given to us by God. You may note that you don’t see anyone in the NT dancing naked. The only naked One is the One hanging on the cross. Our memorial of Him is the most pure worship, as there is no sacrifice more pure than His. We can dance, shout, and sing all we want, but nothing we can manufacture from ourselves will compare to what He has done for us.

True worship is not about emotion and frenetic activity.

 

[Leeann]

Hi jlhargus

I’ve just seen your newest post and will copy and save it to read and will get back to you on it but it may be a day or two.
Going to be busy with my “other life” away from computer for a few days…but will pop back in and out to read other posters when I can.

Thanks for all the views and opinions from everyone.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There is a salient point that has arisen recently, mostly from LeeAnn but probably from other Protestants who are recent posters (welcome to the forums) which I’d like to address.

It has been said that ‘prayer to the saints’ is not an apostolic teaching.

What is the basis of this contention?

That on the basis of most Protestants (not all) individual interpretation of Scripture there is no explicit (to them) notation on the order of “thou shalt pray to, through, and with the saints in heaven”.

However, we have many developments in Christian teaching. . .among them, the doctrine of the Trinity, for example, which were not explicitly, in Scripture, noted as “taught” by the apostles. However, we can be sure that this were taught even though Scripture does not claim that the apostles spoke in the words of the Nicean Creed that Father, Son and Spirit were three Divine Persons in One God. We know it was taught because it continues to BE taught, because it is accepted teaching, because it does not contradict Scripture, and because our authority–the Church–tells us so. The same Church from whom Martin Luther acknowledges that Protestants “owe their Bible to” as the authority for that Bible. . .yet that authority is apparently the last thing Protestants will accept for virtually any Christian teaching, even trucating said Bible and claiming for it what the Bible has never claimed for itself–'that it (the Bible) is the authority and not the Church.

Like the doctrines of prayer to the saints (common to all Christendom, Catholics and Orthodox), the doctrine of the Trinity would have been implicit in apostolic teaching. Since we were not present for any of the oral teachings (which St. Paul assures us he gave and which St. John assures us Jesus taught, indeed St. John tells us that not all that Jesus said, did and taught was ‘written down’), the contention that the apostles did not teach prayer to the saints is purely speculative, especially considering the evidence that exists --that is, the writings in the catacombs that show that the earliest Christians did indeed pray to saints, and that the practice continues to this day. Indeed, whereas practices which are not found in apostolic teaching, such as Nestorianism, Manichianism, Arianism, Gnosticism, etc. were roundly condemned by the Church as false, this practice of prayer to the saintswas noted as authentic Christian teaching. . .which, by definition, is rooted in apostolic teaching.

Even the earliest Protestants do not deny the communion of saints nor prayers to them, and many Protestants pray to this day to the saints in heaven. This being the case, it is far more likely, logically speaking, that the contention that this is ‘not’ apostolic teaching is itself man-made teaching, a ‘new’ gospel.

And for the umptieth time --but not the last, I’ll wager:

When the Pope, or any of us, is in prayer, to whom would the apostles point as the ultimate end of prayer?

Why, to Jesus in Mary. . .and to Mary in Jesus. To Christ in His Church. There are no false dichotomies in authentic Christian prayer. There are no false separations of Christ from His Church. There is no 'Jesus is HERE and ‘everybody else’ is THERE. Scripture and the Church are very clear on that point.

 

[RobHom]

I wonder why any of the Apostles themselves, never practiced or encouraged or preached or taught - "you need to turn to Mary - because she’s the only one who got it right from start to finish - if this is what we as Christians are to be doing now.

Leeann,

Some thoughts to consider…

1. Given the period in time that we are speaking of…Society, such that it was, was not “Matriarchal”… It was “Patriarchal” and so it was male dominated. And to some extent rather chauvinistic, hence the likelihood of any man make a great deal of any woman is minimal. Further, apply the same notion to all of the “societies” that existed in those days, Roman, Greek, Phoenician, Etruscan, and even extend it up through the ages and you will find that the same applies.
2. The statement that “any woman” who appears in any religious or historical document at any point in time prior to the 20th century was in fact a woman of great stature or notoriety, because to garner notice would require great stature or notoriety. Name any women that made history…

Do you really think that it is possible that the Apostles “ignored” Mary and would have disregarded her on the spot?

The New Testament was written about Christ and the Salvation that He brought us…but His life included His mother, who through all that she and Joseph went through and endured to protect and raise Christ so that He could complete his ministry.

Because Mary is not the central focus of Scriptures does not mean that we are to ignore the woman who gave her life to God and served Him all of her life.

Keep in mind that not all about our beliefs are contained within the Bible…otherwise there would be no reason to ever even look at anything else, and the writings of the Early Christian Fathers would be mere recycling material or waste, but this is not the case.

 

[RobHom]

What is revealed in scripture has never been limited to any true and faithful believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, the O.T./N.T., all inspired by the Holy Spirit and to be used to “test” any practices of any church/denomination against. That is why it is clear that the Catholic understanding and teaching of the “Communion of saints” is not what the Apostles believed or taught.

You are entitled to your opinion…though it is far afield.

There are also divisions within the Catholic Church, as to understanding what is being taught and various understandings that come from the “one teaching” that is taught, read back over some of the previous postings.

Yes there are different Catholic Rites, but there is far more agreement among them than meets the eye, and certainly more agreement than exists among the multitude of non-Catholics of other denominations.

As for there “not being a Christian for 1600 years” – there is no evidence as to this being true, as we covered before, some may have been doing this, but it didn’t make it correct.

Again you opining as though your word was fact. Actually, if you were to take the time to investigate history, especially where Mary is concerned…you would find you are in error. You have conveniently forgotten about the Sub Tuum and its dating back to the 200’s and given that fact, its not even a short reach to make the case that Mary’s importance even back to the day after Christ’s Crucifixion. Correct, yes it is.

We’re talking about the teaching and practices of the Apostles of the early believers of the very first churches, where the Apostles did as they were commissioned by Jesus to do and made it clear and evident where all Christians….both then and now…should be directing their concerns too…Jesus/God.

Again, refer to the Sub Tuum, and do more research into the writings of the Early Christian Fathers… Sola scriptura is not biblical, therefore it cannot be declared as valid, because nothing in the Bible says it. Sola scriptura is a “man-made” religious device that merely seeks to establish a platform for justification of religions that are reformists, and many that have even drastically removed themselves from that category and gone far afield.

I haven’t said that they have stopped praying. But that has nothing to do with us praying to/through them.

Irrelevant.

I reject the Catholic Church’s claim of the “communion of saints” which instructs that we can and should pray to/through them. The Apostles never taught that.

You are fully entitled to do as you will, however your continued and pedantic refusal to expand your knowledge is amazing. Many times, many many times… the justifications based on the Bible have been pointed out and provided to you and a multitude of others…Fine, if you choose to close your mind, your ears, your eyes, and refuse to understand scriptures that do not meet your requirements…so be it… but if you have the slightest inclination to advance your knowledge of God and why Catholics believe what they do…that is supported by the Bible then spend a few minutes here: newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm If you believe so strongly in the Bible, then it appears you have missed much contained therein.

Like I said…you spend too much time “picking at nits”.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This thread was closed as it had gone over the 1,000 posting limit…near the end it got “de-railed” quite a bit and went off topic…so starting it up again to see if there are any more replies.

**Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus? **

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zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question:

**In view of the Pope saying - “*we will not ****know to whom to turn”… *my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

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Peace and God Bless!

“Was Mary crucified for you ?” - Not to Mary. That came later, after the status of the Incarnate Word had been settled: “first things first” - & He is First as well as Last. She is not.​

 

[jlhargus]

Leeann: Hi jlhargus

I’ve just seen your newest post and will copy and save it to read and will get back to you on it but it may be a day or two.

JL: Thanks, I found an error in my last post and could not edit::

JL: I was not quoting Ps148 but Ps103. However Paul (David not Paul) is calling on angles, who have a will, in Ps 148 also. Paul (David) also calls on created objects, which do praise God, without a will. Disregard Paul should be David both times. I could not edit.

 

[nbtb1348]

Did I?

Did Mary do the same?

So, which “role” was He in when she went to Him about the problem?

You are making my case for me! :dancing:

I’m afraid if you stood in the presence of the corporate worship I know (and I am not Pentecostal, by the way), you would be like Michal as she watched David worship when he brought the ark back. Do you remember?==
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. "
And do you remember Michal’s reaction to this glorious worship?–
“And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and **she despised him in her heart. **”

And do you remember what she reaped?–
“Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.”

I don’t despise Protestant worship, nb. My separated brethren have taught me a great deal about prayer and worship that has greately enriched my life.

It may also be because Catholics are centered around a very different kind of worship, not one of our own creation, but that given to us by God. You may note that you don’t see anyone in the NT dancing naked. The only naked One is the One hanging on the cross. Our memorial of Him is the most pure worship, as there is no sacrifice more pure than His. We can dance, shout, and sing all we want, but nothing we can manufacture from ourselves will compare to what He has done for us.

True worship is not about emotion and frenetic activity.

My point there with Mary and Jesus is that when he was here, he was a man (also God). He lived like a man, wet his diapers like a baby, grew up with his earthly mother, who was full of grace for the job, and she knew her son. My wife was given a ton of grace to raise our five children, as well. Mary had a special annointing on her. So did John the Baptist. So did Paul, and Peter, and Stephen…and all of them, including Mary, are part of the “all” Paul refers to when he says “All have sinned.” It is frankly a waste of time to venerate Mary in this way and tempts people to worship her.

By the way, i hate services where people’s emotions are deliberately manipulated.

 

[Leeann]

Hello jlhargus

JL : from original post Leeann:

If we search the gospels, we will find no record of Jesus or the Apostles having encouraged the early believers to pray to anyone else in heaven other that God.

JL: 1Tim5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
[Isn’t Paul also calling on angles as witnesses.]

Leeann: Paul is writing to Timothy and addressing him. He is not praying to God/Jesus or the angels.

JL: Speaking or writing, Paul is giving Timothy a charge and calls, not only on God and Christ, but angles as witnesses. I CHARGE YOU, IN THE SIGHT OF.

Paul doesn’t “call” on God/Jesus or the angels asking them to be witnesses……he’s making a statement that they are witnesses……reminding Timothy, if you will, the seriousness of this charge.

JL: Ps 103:20 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. 21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will. [Isn’t the author asking angles to praise the Lord]

Leeann: In Ps148 Praise Him, all His angels, Praise Him, all His Hosts, Praise Him, Sun and Moon, Praise Him, all you stars of light……in the context you are applying, that would mean that the author is also asking the Sun and the Moon to praise Him……as you read further on…it includes fruitful trees and all cattle….

JL: I was not quoting Ps148 but Ps103. However Paul is calling on angles, who have a will, in Ps 148 also. Paul also calls on created objects, which do praise God, without a will.

David is indeed praising/praying…rejoicing to the fullest….but is David praying to/through the angels to do something on his behalf? …to/through the Sun and the Moon for anything on his behalf …to/through the fruitful trees and all the cattle for anything…on his behalf?

JL: Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. [Wouldn’t the angels serve as the childs intercessor or advocate before God, otherwise what is the point?]

Leeann: There is no indication that the children were praying to angels.

JL: Point is angles can and do interceed for them. Otherwise why should anyone take heed?

Point is that in relation to the quote of mine you posted above…about “praying to” anyone other than God/Jesus….and to the verse you referred too in Matthew….there is nothing indicating that children were praying to angels.

JL: Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne 4: and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. [From the hand of the angel the prayers of the saints on earth are offered up to God. My opinion the angel adds to the prayers of the saints (incense) to make them more pleasing to God.]

Leeann: I don’t know that the prayers of the saints need anything added to them to make them more pleasing to God, but that may be so…however these verses don’ t support praying to anyone other than to God/Jesus.

JL: How do the angles get the prayers? Those prayers are going from the saints on earth thru angels, not directly to Christ or God. Sometimes, going thru hard times my prayers need a lot added to them, it isn’t a faith issue though.

The fact that the angels are presenting the prayers of the saints on earth to God…does not mean that the saints on earth “prayed to the angels”….it simply means that the angels presented them to God.

Sometimes, it’s the same for me……and durng those timesI draw strength and assurance from the scripture that says:

Romans 8 :V 26 – 27

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

JL: RV 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. [They are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth isn’t that interceding. Harps adding to the prayers of the saints.]

Leeann: But what has that got to do with “praying” with regards to my quote that you posted above?

JL: Again prayers of earthly saints are going thru BOTH angles and heavenly saints, not directly to Christ or God.

As you yourself state above, the angels and elders were “offering up”…giving too……that doesn’t mean that they – the angels themselves or the elders were prayed too.

 

[Leeann]

Hi jlhargus

JL: LK 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance… 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. [Saints in heaven know when a sinner repents and rejoice in the presence of angels. We are a people not just lone individuals, it is not Jesus and me, but God and us the entire body of Christ through which the Spirit flows, by being united to that one and only body we all receive the grace to persevere. 1Cor12:14: For the body is not one member, but many. 1 COR 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body but that the members should have the same care one for another.

Leeann: From those verses you quoted, it is evident that the angels are indeed aware and full of joy over sinners that repent…but again this has nothing to do with “praying” or with regards to the quote

[COLOR=“Blue”]JL: Who rejoices IN THE PRESENCE OF ANGELS? if not the souls of saints in heaven? Do you suppose they wouldn’t pray for the conversion of all souls on earth? Do you suppose saints in heaven have forgotten their children or grand children, sorta, forget you I got mine attitude?

…"there is joy in the presence of the angels of God”…in their presence there is joy……amongst themselves….and no doubt in all the saints that are there also…but this verse does not have anything to do with “praying to/through” either the saints in heaven or the angels,
or in relation to the quote of mine you posted.

 

[Leeann]

To jlhargus

Leeann: I agree that we are all members, joined together, of one body – Christ, through which the Spirit flows…true and faithful believers….regardless of what church/denomination ones belongs too.

JL: I also agree we are all members of one body, some only spiritually, as they are separated from the one visible body. What happens to those saints who’s souls are in heaven? Are they no longer members of the one body and bride of Christ?

Of course they are.

JL[1Cor 12:25 That there should be no schism in the BODY but that the MEMBERS SHOULD HAVE THE SAME CARE ONE FOR ANOTHER.]

However this one verse that you have chosen - if taken and read in context with **all **the other verses, it is evident that Paul is writing to the Corinthian church members and advising them of how each individual member has an important part to play within their church right there on earth at that time. Paul is not referring to the saints that have gone on to heaven, but the members of the Corinthian church right there and then and he goes on to explain the different callings they may have within the church right there.

JL - Hb12:22 But YOU HAVE COME TO Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD. You have come to thousands upon thousands of ANGLES in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come TO GOD, the judge of all men, to THE SPIRITS OF RIGHTEOUS MEN made perfect, 24 TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Again….if you read the verses leading up to V22 – it puts it into better perspective.

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 for they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:
22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

V 22-24 are telling all believers (then and now) where indeed we have come….and that is wonderful…these verses were/are used to encourage us to carry on in our walk boldly, without the fear that Moses experienced…. but they do not exhort us to “pray” to anyone.

JL -Eph 3:14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom HIS WHOLE FAMILY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH derives its name.

I come by prayer to all of these. I have total access to the holy of holies and God’s whole family in heaven or earth. I may go directly to God or ask anyone of his to pray for me.

Based on what …this one verse of scripture again? How do you “derive” that?

His whole family in heaven and on earth DOES derive (gets) its name from Him, however Paul is praying to God….**not to/through any other members of the family in heaven **and the following verses make that very clear as well as making it clear that with “Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith” that we “will know the love of Christ” and “be filled with all the fullness of God.”

Paul ends with “now unto HIM, that is ABLE to do EXCEEDING ABUNDANTLY…….unto HIM be glory in the church by CHRIST JESUS throughout all ages…!

Ephesians 3:

14 For this cause **I bow my knees unto the Father **of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 **Now unto him that is able **to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

That is also why, we are told in Hebrews 4 to go boldly before His throne – not to/through anyone else.

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

To Jesus.

 

[Leeann]

RobHom:

Leeann,

Some thoughts to consider…

1. Given the period in time that we are speaking of…Society, such that it was, was not “Matriarchal”… It was “Patriarchal” and so it was male dominated. And to some extent rather chauvinistic, hence the likelihood of any man make a great deal of any woman is minimal. Further, apply the same notion to all of the “societies” that existed in those days, Roman, Greek, Phoenician, Etruscan, and even extend it up through the ages and you will find that the same applies.

I do understand what you’re saying, however in the churches when the Apostles were alive, this wasn’t so…as is evident of the way the women were held in quite high esteem by Paul who begins by greeting “a woman”, Phoebe first:

Romans 16 :V1 -16

1 I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cen’chre-ae:
2 that ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succorer of many, and of myself also.
3 **Greet Priscilla **and Aquila,my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4 **who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.**5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epe’netus, who is the firstfruits of Achai’a unto Christ.
6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labor on us.
7 Salute Andron’icus and Ju’ni-a, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

…the list goes on…

RobHom:

1. The statement that “any woman” who appears in any religious or historical document at any point in time prior to the 20th century was in fact a woman of great stature or notoriety, because to garner notice would require great stature or notoriety. Name any women that made history…

Joan of Arc…
Catherine Booth “Mother of the Salvation Army”

RobHom:
Do you really think that it is possible that the Apostles “ignored” Mary and would have disregarded her on the spot?

Of course not.

RobHom:
The New Testament was written about Christ and the Salvation that He brought us…but His life included His mother, who through all that she and Joseph went through and endured to protect and raise Christ so that He could complete his ministry.

Because Mary is not the central focus of Scriptures does not mean that we are to ignore the woman who gave her life to God and served Him all of her life.

Of course not. As you say, the NT was written about Christ and the Salvation that HE brought us and apparently that is what was and is important enough to have our attention drawn to, to be focused on and that is why the Apostles pointed the early believers to Him/God in prayer when they needed mercy, help and anything else.

RobHom:
Keep in mind that not all about our beliefs are contained within the Bible…otherwise there would be no reason to ever even look at anything else, and the writings of the Early Christian Fathers would be mere recycling material or waste, but this is not the case.

Yes, I have understood for quite some time now, many years, that your beliefs are based both on tradition and scripture. It’s been beneficial for me to be able to read the various responses with regards to the thread question…receive a clearer understanding as to why the Pope believes and prays this way himself and why members of the Catholic faith follow his example.

 

[Leeann]

“Was Mary crucified for you ?” - Not to Mary. That came later, after the status of the Incarnate Word had been settled: “first things first” - & He is First as well as Last. She is not.​

Hi Gottle of Geer…almost missed your post…so many to go back through…thanks for posting.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Hi Leeann

I don’t know how interested you are in learning about how Catholics understand the communion of saints…but it seems that your primary concern stems from this particular concept.

If you are interested…I am reading a book right now that I thought might be a good read for you it’s called “The Family of God” by Scott Hahn. I know…most protestants groan when they hear this author suggested, but I sincerely suggest it because it’s a very good read!

God bless!

 

[Non_Serviam]

I’m back!

Just got through reading everything that was posted in my absence-kudos to Leeann for continuing to insist for clear proof of Catholic claims on this topic rather than inferences and speculation.

I see that there continues to be no posts of documentation relatively close to the time of the Apostles that explicitly states that they encouraged prayer to dead saints or did it themselves.

Even the Catholic Encyclopedia article doesn’t make this claim, referring only to allusions to proof-texting done with verses from Pauline Epistles and some Fathers.

So on the basis of all evidence presented about the Apostles actions, it still leaves them pointing to God the Father via Jesus. They respect and love Mary, for certain, but as is clearly shown in the Gospels, Acts and Epistles, they point directly to God when someone inquires.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Leeann,

In answer to my question, “If someone was studying 20thC American architecture, where would you point them…to the great work of Frank Lloyd Wright, or…to Frank Lloyd Wright?”, you responded:

…I would point to “Frank Lloyd Wright”…

That would result in a woefully incomplete study. Total theory. No show and all tell. It is impossible to appreciate the genius of FLW without a thorough understanding of his work. It is the creation that best reveals the creator.

Getting back to your OP, no one suggests pointing to Mary for salvation. I think though, that Catholics are focused on something slightly different while on earth and that is relationship. My relationship with God is the number one reason for my existence. In my desire to know, love and serve Him, I never tire of studying His “great work”.

How many sunsets can you get lost in admiring before you’ve placed too much emphasis on sunsets and not enough on God? Silly question, right?