Praying Rosary During Mass?

[bear06]

That’s right.

Many prelates at Vatican II, countless old ladies on their knees in churches worldwide, all are wrong…forget the “sensus fidelium”…and they were suddenly declared wrong in 1974. Before that, they were okay, because no document explicitly noted their mistake and infraction. But at whatever moment that document was signed in 1974, if you did it and knew about that magic piece of paper, you were disobedient, a liberal, a cafeteria Catholic, possibly a schismatic, etc., etc…

This is incredibly unCatholic.

So Pope Paul VI was unCatholic for saying they were mistaken? BTW, I believe you are the only one mentioning the above list. The only person who said those things was you. I, however, did say that **your agument **that we don’t have to listen to the Pope because it wasn’t an infallible document is very similar to the liberals arguments on why we don’t have to listen to the Pope on this that and the other thing.

 

[AlexV]

I second Dr. Bombay.

I am increasingly mystified by the culture of demanding instant documentation from websites to prove every last assertion.

It’s linked, unfortunately, to a culture of expecting every last eventuality of liturgy to be covered by a rubric.

The 1962 Missal has practically zero rubrics for the laity. This isn’t…as some malicious sorts allege…because in 1962 the Church didn’t care about the laity.

Rather, it’s because traditionally the Church hasn’t regulated posture, or who does what during Mass, with lockstep rigidity.

At the Mass I attend, one man remains on his knees the entire Mass, seemingly oblivious to what’s going on. He never receives Communion, even. Who knows what’s going on in his mind? He sits quietly in the back pew, on his knees, arrives and leaves with a genuflect, no more.

He’s edifying in his own way.

Another man has a rosary. Yet another a Missal, enraptured by the description of the Mass. A child has a prayerbook appropriate for her age.

All are participating actively. All are attentive to the Mass.

Welcome to unity in diversity. Quite conservative, quite liberal…very traditional, eminently Catholic.

As for Paul VI, yes, I think he was quite incorrect in numerous things he did. He wasn’t divine. He could make mistakes. I realize that comes as a shock to those who think whatever a pope says must be obeyed without question.

 

[bear06]

Sorry. I don’t produce proof at your command. It may shock you to discover that not every piece of information in the world is available by clicking a link. Especially the dubious ones you regularly produce.

You aren’t even saying what your source is, Bombay. Surely you can see why it is suspicious. And as far as your dubious comments, it might be nice if you actually pointed out which ones were dubious. You’re just trying real hard to get people to think that the links I’ve posted have no merit with, as usual, no proof. Thou doth protest too much. The last link you didn’t like was a Church document.

The internet is merely a more efficient way to spread lies, slander and gossip.

 

[bear06]

I am increasingly mystified by the culture of demanding instant documentation from websites to prove every last assertion.

Hellooooo!!! For some reason we’re not even allowed to know what his source is.

It’s linked, unfortunately, to a culture of expecting every last eventuality of liturgy to be covered by a rubric.

IT’s linked to no pope ever saying it was a good idea to say the rosary during Mass and one pope saying it was a mistake.

The 1962 Missal has practically zero rubrics for the laity.

Do you mean we weren’t supposed to kneel for Communion, kneel for the Consecration, receive on the tongue, stand up and sit down at certain points, make the Sign of the Cross at certain points, etc., etc., etc…?

Rather, it’s because traditionally the Church hasn’t regulated posture, or who does what during Mass, with lockstep rigidity.

See above. It seems that it’s perfectly fine to regulate posture when one likes it and not if one doesn’t. Hmmm…also sounds familiar.

At the Mass I attend, one man remains on his knees the entire Mass, seemingly oblivious to what’s going on. He never receives Communion, even. Who knows what’s going on in his mind? He sits quietly in the back pew, on his knees, arrives and leaves with a genuflect, no more.

He’s edifying in his own way.

Then you’d also have to admit that when people pray with their hands over their head that they are also edifying in their own way. Right?

Yet another a Missal, enraptured by the description of the Mass. A child has a prayerbook appropriate for her age.

Which pope said that these were mistakes?

All are participating actively. All are attentive to the Mass.

Following in a missal is following the Mass.

As for Paul VI, yes, I think he was quite incorrect in numerous things he did. He wasn’t divine. He could make mistakes. I realize that comes as a shock to those who think whatever a pope says must be obeyed without question.

Wait! I hear the phrase “What the pope likes for breakfast” coming.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

You aren’t even saying what your source is, Bombay. Surely you can see why it is suspicious. And as far as your dubious comments, it might be nice if you actually pointed out which ones were dubious. You’re just trying real hard to get people to think that the links I’ve posted have no merit with, as usual, no proof. Thou doth protest too much. The last link you didn’t like was a Church document.

 

[HailMary]

Why can’t people go to Mass 15 minutes early and pray the Rosary BEFORE Mass? That is what I do daily and then I am able to give full and undivided attention to the Mass itself. I would think it would be very distracting to be praying the Rosary and still try to keep up with the responses.

:heart:Blyss

Our Lady prefers the Rosary after mass (Secret of the Rosary by St. Louis de Montfort)

 

[Victorious]

I’m hard pressed to see why we need to worry about what other people are doing during Mass, as long as what they’re doing doesn’t create a distraction or a disturbance. Let God attend to anybody who is quietly doing wrong.

And when heresies start emanating from the pulpit, I am going to reach for my beads, period.

 

[bear06]

I’m betting many

will find most websites to have dubious content of one type or another.
I’m betting most wouldn’t find the sites linked to dubious.

And I don’t produce links at your beck and call like I’m a trained seal. Truth wasn’t invented by Algore along with the internet, ya know

Again, how about a name? You don’t seem to produce much of anything when asked by anyone since I’m not the only one who has asked. You obviously read or heard about this somewhere.

Again, if you’re going to tell a story about a pope as evidence that it’s fine and dandy to do something, it seems that one should be able to verify it somewhere either by book, interenet or even the person who is supposedly an “unimpeachable source”. Like I said, it might be quite true but one should be able to know the source of the story to find its weight.

 

[bear06]

I’m hard pressed to see why we need to worry about what other people are doing during Mass, as long as what they’re doing doesn’t create a distraction or a disturbance. Let God attend to anybody who is quietly doing wrong.

And when heresies start emanating from the pulpit, I am going to reach for my beads, period.

Who said anything about worrying about what others are doing? It’s a matter of knowing if it was ever recommended vs. the fact that it has been not recommended. Read the original post.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

I use The New Marian Missal when I attend the Tridentine Mass. This missal follow the 1958 Roman Missal. Here is what is says about following the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass:

We give here some practical hints which will help you to follow the Holy Mass with piety and fruit.

1. Follow all the ceremonies of the Mass and say the sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary and consider the sorrowful Mysteries. (emphasis mine) Or
2. Read in the prayer book the prayers which correspond to the various parts of the Mass, i.e., follow the order of the Mass in connection with the Proper of the Season. (emphasis mine) Or
3. Say Mass with the priest to *adore *God, to thank Him and to implore His pardon and to ask for new graces, and in order to obtain this say:

a. From the Confeitor to the Offertory attentively and slowly 5 times the Our Father and 5 times the Hail Mary to* adore God.*** (emphasis mine)

b. From the Offertory to the Elevation, 5 times the Our Father and 5 times the Hail Mary to give thanks to God. (emphasis mine)

c. From the Elevation to the Communion, 5 times the Our Father and 5 times the Hail Mary to*** do penance*** andto obtain remission of sins.** (emphasis mine)

d. From the Communion to the Last Gospel, 5 times the Our Father and 5 times the Hail Mary to beseech mercy for yourself and for others. (emphasis mine)

There are many different ways to piously and fruitfully follow the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Certainly saying the responses and following along in the missal or missalette is one way to do it. This doesn’t mean it’s the only way.

The Mass is a contemplative prayer as well as a vocal prayer. Unfortunately, with all the focus on “active participation” in the Novus Ordo Mass, most Catholics have either lost sight of this or have never known it. Liturgists have become so obsessed with uniformity that they forget about the contemplative aspect of the Mass, or they are trying to do away with this aspect.

I’ll guarantee those little old ladies saying the Sorrowful Mysteries during Mass are more aware of what is going on than the people who “actively participate” by reading out loud the responses in the missalette.

I’ll also guarantee those little old ladies know all the different parts of the Mass, including the three most important parts. Most people who attend Mass regularly on Sunday don’t even realize there are different parts of the Mass, let alone the three most important parts.

Before criticizing how other people follow the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, ask yourself how well do you know the Mass. Do you know the different parts of the Mass? Do you know the three most important parts of the Mass? Do you know the two main parts of the Mass?

I would rather someone say the Rosary during Mass than read words from a book like a robot. Unfortunately, it seems the emphasis today is on robotic uniformity rather than on knowing the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Uniformity does not equal knowledge and piety.

 

[Victorious]

Who said anything about worrying about what others are doing? It’s a matter of knowing if it was ever recommended vs. the fact that it has been not recommended. Read the original post.

I did. There are a good many more posts now besides the original one, and that’s what I was responding to.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

So Pope Paul VI was unCatholic for saying they were mistaken? BTW, I believe you are the only one mentioning the above list. The only person who said those things was you. I, however, did say that **your agument **that we don’t have to listen to the Pope because it wasn’t an infallible document is very similar to the liberals arguments on why we don’t have to listen to the Pope on this that and the other thing.

We don’t have to listen to Paul VI because a pope cannot bind a future pope unless it’s a matter of faith and morals. The document issued by Paul VI is a matter of discipline. Benedict XVI is the pope now, not Paul VI, so this document isn’t binding anymore.

I’m just using the argument certain people use against Quo Primum.

If a document issued by St. Pius V on a matter of discipline is no longer binding because he is no longer pope, then the same goes for a document issued by Paul VI on a matter of discipline. You can’t have it both ways.

 

[palmas85]

When I was younger,back in the 50’s and 60’s there were definitely those who said the Rosary or some other combination of prayers during **certain parts **of the Mass. There were parts of the Traditional Mass that were specifically for the Priest to pray. Some people felt that while the Priest said his prayers they would say the ones that had particular meaning to them. The Traditional Mass was not as is the Pauline Rite a continual round of standing sitting kneeling standing kneeling, responding singing etc. No you pretty much knelt through the whole thing, standing briefly sitting briefly and contemplating the great mystery a lot…

As I remember it a good percentage of the attendees in those days followed along in their Missals others prayed their rosaries some prayed silently, either the Mass or something else and still others, dozed off, looked around, studied their fingernails or flirted with the girl or guy in front of them. Essentially the same general behavior you see at Mass today.

I actually think the entire myth of entire congregations clacking their beads in unison came from the same people who say that no one knew what was going on in the Mass because it was said in Latin, and that Priests would say their five minute speed Masses by dumping entire portions of the prayers.

The people who wanted something new, relevant and modern and actively hated the Traditional Mass for exactly that reason.

It was Traditional, it sure wasn’t modern and did not offer a lot of room for innovators to improve things…

Remember this was the 60’s, everything new and revolutionary was good:thumbsup: Everything old and Traditional was bad and self expression, improvement and communal participation in many things not only the Mass were all very important

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Why is it that some people so rigidly want to regulate every single action of every last member of the liturgical assembly?

Because that is what the liturgists are telling us must be done. These sentiments are told to the laity by bishops and priests who don’t follow the GIRM themselves. They tell us we must all be uniform, we must all obey their directives without question. Yet they ignore every directive that comes from Rome.

Why is it that some people want to start talking about disobedience as soon as someone doesn’t hold their hands at the right distance from their body should they choose to receive Communion in the hand?

Because we live in a period of hyper-obedience. If we don’t do everything exactly as we’re told, we’re disobedient. You don’t know the number of non-Catholics I’ve encountered who believe the Catholic Church teaches that capital punishment is intrinsically evil because John Paul II came out against it. I tell them the Church has always taught that capital punishment is morally licit under certain conditions. They tell me it isn’t because their relative/friend/neighbor who is Catholic told them it’s against Catholic teaching because John Paul II said so and if I don’t accept what John Paul II says than I’m not following the teachings of the Church.

John Paul II had every right to believe what he believed about capital punishment as a Catholic. I still disagree with him. Unfortunately, most people think I’m not following Church teaching because they can’t distinguish between papal infallibility and prudential judgment.

Why is it that some people think that it’s possible to judge from exteriors what someone is doing interiorly?

It isn’t possible and I don’t know why anyone thinks than can judge the thoughts of another. Doesn’t Jesus tell us not to do this in the Gospels?

Why is it that Mass needs to be some exercise where you are talked to for an hour by a cast of characters who demand that like jacks in the box you stand, sit, kneel in lockstep and recite responses and sing songs as you are told in a tone and at a vocal range that proves to their satisfaction you’re “participating”?

Because this has been ingrained into oru minds for the last 40 years. The Mass is both contemplative and vocal. Sadly, the contemplative aspect has been almost completely taken out of the Mass.

Why is it that some people really seem to think all of these things are regulated by rubrics and rules and “norms” that are all of equal importance and must be carried out by all who would consider themselves faithful, orthodox, dedicated Catholics?

It’s a combination of hyper-obedience and being ingrained into our minds for the last 40 years.

Sheesh. Study liturgical history. The Church, wisely, has traditionally never become obsessed with every last thing people are doing during Mass.

Sadly, the vast majority of Catholics are ignorant of liturgical history. Most Catholics only know the Novus Ordo Mass, so they think the Mass is nothing more than robotic responses and uniform rubrics. Granted, the Mass must be orderly. When I go to the Tridentine Mass, most people are following uniform rubrics. However, uniform rubrics aren’t the be all and end all of Mass. There is time for personal, private prayer after Holy Communion, which is also found in the Novus Ordo Masses at my parish.

If Catholics truly knew liturgical history, they would see the innovations that were forced upon the Church with the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Mass. I don’t want to be misunderstood. The Novus Ordo Mass is valid and licit because it was promulgated by Paul VI.

However, this doesn’t mean that just because a pope promulgated a Mass that there aren’t liturgical innovations with that Mass.

I have to obey the pope as a Catholic, but I don’t have to like everything a pope does as a Catholic.

 

[CRW]

Is there a document that actually approved the praying of the Rosary during the Mass in the past?

I am aware that the apostolic exhortation Marialis Cultus states that “liturgical celebration and the devotional practice of the rosary are seen to be neither in opposition nor on an equal plane” to the Mass, but was approval actually given at some point to pray the Rosary during the Mass?

Reference: thecatholicrosary.blogspot.com/

Tips for Praying the Rosary More Devoutly:

1. The rosary is a meditation. Picture the scene in your imagination and try to enter in as one of the people there. See, hear, and feel what is said and done. Thank, admire, congratulate, suffer with, cry with Jesus and Mary.
   Ask them questions. Think of the virtues and good examples they show. Compare the event with your own life.
2. Don’t try to pray the rosary during an activity that requires full attention, like driving in traffic or cooking or using machinery.

15)** Do not pray the rosary during Mass, not even during the sermon. It is much better to listen to the readings and prayers, watch the ceremonies, join in the singing, and become a part of the Mass. In former years when the rosary was encouraged during Mass, the ceremony was in Latin and active participation was not always possible.**

 

[palmas85]

Reference: thecatholicrosary.blogspot.com/

Tips for Praying the Rosary More Devoutly:

1. The rosary is a meditation. Picture the scene in your imagination and try to enter in as one of the people there. See, hear, and feel what is said and done. Thank, admire, congratulate, suffer with, cry with Jesus and Mary.
   Ask them questions. Think of the virtues and good examples they show. Compare the event with your own life.
2. Don’t try to pray the rosary during an activity that requires full attention, like driving in traffic or cooking or using machinery.

15)** Do not pray the rosary during Mass, not even during the sermon. It is much better to listen to the readings and prayers, watch the ceremonies, join in the singing, and become a part of the Mass. In former years when the rosary was encouraged during Mass, the ceremony was in Latin and active participation was not always possible.**

I notice this reference comes from a personal blogspot and is not an official church document and as such I would assume reflects the personal preferences and reccomendations of the author, and really nothing more.

 

[bear06]

We don’t have to listen to Paul VI because a pope cannot bind a future pope unless it’s a matter of faith and morals. The document issued by Paul VI is a matter of discipline. Benedict XVI is the pope now, not Paul VI, so this document isn’t binding anymore.

Did Pope Benedict change anything since Marialis Cultus? I don’t remember him mentioning the rosary during Mass during his pontificate. Please enlighten us.

I’m just using the argument certain people use against Quo Primum.

 

[bear06]

Because that is what the liturgists are telling us must be done. These sentiments are told to the laity by bishops and priests who don’t follow the GIRM themselves. They tell us we must all be uniform, we must all obey their directives without question. Yet they ignore every directive that comes from Rome.

Please. Do you think I have my own private liturgist in speed dial? You obviously don’t know my diocese very well or my place in it. I’ve been taking on the wacky liturgists, priests and until we got our new one, the bishop for not following anything remotely close to the GIRM. Personal act of piety are nifty. Love them. The rosary during Mass, however, was said to be a mistake by a pope not my local liturgist, priest or bishop. In fact, as wacky as they were/are I’ve never heard them once mention it.

Because we live in a period of hyper-obedience. If we don’t do everything

 

[bear06]

I notice this reference comes from a personal blogspot and is not an official church document and as such I would assume reflects the personal preferences and reccomendations of the author, and really nothing more.

Now it suddenly matters if it comes from an official Church document?! Zoinks! Marialis Cultus! Marialis Cultus! How come your picking on him when Bombay won’t reveal his super secret source?

That said, Palmas is right. It is just a blogspot. Last time I checked, nobody from the Magisterium has said you couldn’t say your rosary while driving!

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Here is a quote from Pope Pius XII’s Encyclical on the Liturgy Mediator Dei:

1. Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

I’m actually starting to think that Mediator Dei was the last truly “pastoral” document issued by the Vatican!