Praying the Hail Mary

[DebChris]

It is statements like this where things go awry.
How could you know that Mary was the only creature whose will was aligned entirely with that of God?.
Mary was human.
She needed a savior.Lk1:47
Your statement deifies her.

Are you limiting God to time? God prepared the vessel that would carry him. That vessel was sanctified even before birth. She could have told the Angel no, but she did not. Scripture itself refers to Mary as the new Eve. Eve was created in the image and likeness of God without sin or defilement but lost that image through her sin. Mary, on the other hand maintained her innocence, remaining undefiled throughout eternity.

 

[misslollipops]

Are you limiting God to time? God prepared the vessel that would carry him. That vessel was sanctified even before birth. She could have told the Angel no, but she did not. Scripture itself refers to Mary as the new Eve. Eve was created in the image and likeness of God without sin or defilement but lost that image through her sin. Mary, on the other hand maintained her innocence, remaining undefiled throughout eternity.

Which scripture claims this?

 

[misslollipops]

Are you limiting God to time? God prepared the vessel that would carry him. That vessel was sanctified even before birth. She could have told the Angel no, but she did not. Scripture itself refers to Mary as the new Eve. Eve was created in the image and likeness of God without sin or defilement but lost that image through her sin. Mary, on the other hand maintained her innocence, remaining undefiled throughout eternity.

Which scripture claims this?

 

[Fidelis]

It is statements like this where things go awry.
How could you know that Mary was the only creature whose will was aligned entirely with that of God?.
Mary was human.
She needed a savior.Lk1:47
Your statement deifies her.

When you say things like this, it is clear that not only do you not know anything about Mary, you also don’t know anything about God. Or logic.

Adam and Eve were perfect before they sinned in the Fall: does that “deify” them or make them gods before that time?

 

[Mannyfit75]

It is statements like this where things go awry.
How could you know that Mary was the only creature whose will was aligned entirely with that of God?

Her own words made it clear. Mary’s FIAT. “Be it Done unto me according to your Word.” She consented to God’s will.

Mary was human.
She needed a savior.Lk1:47
Your statement deifies her.

Mary is a human. Perhaps the most perfect created human being. I don’t think any of their statement defies Mary. Mary was already saved. Let use this analogy.

It’s a foggy day.

A man was walking towards a pit that was covered, and fell into it. A man came by and toss a rope, and saved him.

Another person, a woman comes towards the pit, but the man yelled at her to stop. The woman was saved by being prevented from falling into the pit.

Likewise, **God’s grace ** preserved Mary from all sin and saved her through that way. Likewise, we are saved through God’s grace when we are baptized.

The thing about Mary’s sinlessness is this. God hates sin, but He loves the sinner. Since God’s plan would include saving us from our sins, he sees fit that the woman who is become the Mother of His Only Begotten son, she too must be sinless. If she had sin prior to Jesus’ birth, it would defile Jesus Christ himself, who is the Word made flesh. Jesus is pure and sinless, without any spot in him. He is the spotless Lamb of God.

We know from the Old Testament that God desire mankind to be saved when Adam and Eve sin. He made this promise in Genesis 3:15 where he said the seed from Eve shall come crush the serpent’s head. This seed is Jesus. Furthermore, in Issiah 7:14, God promise that a virgin shall conceived and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

We also see the parallel between the Ark of the Old Covenant and Mary. The Ark carried the Word of God in written form (Ten Commandments), manna, and Aaron’s Rod (priesthood). The Ark is made of beaten gold and its pure. No one can touch it if except those consecrated High priest. A man touch it in fact and was struck dead.

Mary is the type of Ark (Symbollically Speaking) of the New Covenant. The Ark of the Old is just a foreshadow of the things to come. When Mary gave her consent to God’s will, she carried the Word of God, Jesus, who is also the Bread of Life, and the High Priest. In Catholicism, we believe Jesus is both Prophet, Priest and King. Jesus in fact was born in Bethelem, which is in Hebrew means House of Bread. He is also the Manna that Came down from heaven. Mary is literally become the Living Ark.

If you have read Revelation 11:19 and continue reading up to Revelation 12:1-5, the Ark is reveal there. However, the original book itself did not have verses or chapters. The verses or chapters were added later on in either the 6th or 7th Century (not sure about the exact date).

Let me quote it without the chapter and verse Revelation 11:19-12-5.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Most Catholic Biblical scholars believe the woman to be Mary because she can be identified as the mother of a male-child who will rule all nations with an iron rod. The male child is Jesus. Who gave birth to Jesus? Mary.

So yes, Mary is indeed the living Ark.

Mary’s purity is God’s miracle at work. Through her own, she cannot do anything. But with God, everything is possible. I think the major issue for Non-Catholics who cannot grasp our Marian belief has a issue with God working his miracles, especially in regard to Jesus’ own mother, Mary.

I’ll show you some Scriptural verse to show you the Parallel.

There are some striking parallels between David bringing the Ark into Jerusalem in 2 Samuel 6:1-19 and St. Luke’s account of Mary’s visit to Elizabeth in Luke 1:39-56.

In 2 Samuel 6:2, “David arose and went” to Judah.
In Luke 1:39, “Mary arose and went” to the hill country of Judea.

In 2 Samuel 6:9, David cries out: “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?”
In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth asks: “Why is it granted me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

In 2 Samuel 6:14-15, David is found leaping and dancing before the ark of the covenant.
In Luke 1:41-44, the baby in Elizabeth’s womb is leaping for joy in Mary’s presence.

In 2 Samuel 6:11, the ark of the covenant remained at the house of Obededom for three months.

In Luke 1:56, Mary (the new Ark of the Covenant) remained at the home of Elizabeth and Zechariah for three months.

 

[misslollipops]

When you say things like this, it is clear that not only do you not know anything about Mary, you also don’t know anything about God. Or logic.
Adam and Eve were perfect before they sinned in the Fall: does that “deify” them or make them gods before that time?

Not very charitable.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Not very charitable.

I don’t see how his post is uncharitable. He merely noted that you ‘don’t know anything about Mary…’

 

[hp5]

It is statements like this where things go awry.
How could you know that Mary was the only creature whose will was aligned entirely with that of God?.
Mary was human.
She needed a savior.Lk1:47
Your statement deifies her.

If you read the entire statement by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church you will notice that, Yes Mary was in deed immaculate, preserved from stain of sin (remember the Genesis, “I will put enmity between you [devil] and the woman”; if there is enmity between the devil and the woman, how can sin even come close to Mary!?) but only by the merits of Jesus Christ (quoting precisely what you had quoted)

BTW, don’t we use credit cards and pay later? God is not limited by time and space. I you like once could never understand and accept Mary but when I prayed to Lord Jesus to show me his Mother like he did on the cross to John, his “beloved” disciple, I later with divine assistance come to love her but only her but the catholic church itself for which Mary is the true model.

Through Mary God brought Jesus Christ to the World and so the Church tries to do the same. Hope this helps. If it doesn’t please do pray, but in honesty to God.

 

[misslollipops]

If you have read Revelation 11:19 and continue reading up to Revelation 12:1-5, the Ark is reveal there. However, the original book itself did not have verses or chapters. The verses or chapters were added later on in either the 6th or 7th Century (not sure about the exact date).

Let me quote it without the chapter and verse Revelation 11:19-12-5.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Most Catholic Biblical scholars believe the woman to be Mary because she can be identified as the mother of a male-child who will rule all nations with an iron rod. The male child is Jesus. Who gave birth to Jesus? Mary.

Rev 12 is refering to the nation of Israel, not Mary
Verse 6 states the woman fled into the wilderness after the Child was caught up to God and His throne.
Historically this never happened to Mary.
The 12 stars in verse 1 are the twelve tribes.
Zech14:5 talks about Israel fleeing to the mountains in the day of the Lord which supports Rev 12 the woman is Israel.

Isaiah 66:7-13 (New King James Version)

7 “ Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children. 9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the LORD.

  “ Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God. 
   10 “ Rejoice with Jerusalem, 
  And be glad with her, all you who love her; 
  Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her; 
   11 That you may feed and be satisfied 
  With the consolation of her bosom, 
  That you may drink deeply and be delighted 
  With the abundance of her glory.”

12 For thus says the LORD:

  “ Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, 
  And the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream. 
  Then you shall feed; 
  On her sides shall you be carried, 
  And be dandled on her knees. 
   13 As one whom his mother comforts, 
  So I will comfort you; 
  And you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

Rev 12 is refering to the nation of Israel, not Mary
Verse 6 states the woman fled into the wilderness after the Child was caught up to God and His throne.
Historically this never happened to Mary.
The 12 stars in verse 1 are the twelve tribes.
Zech14:5 talks about Israel fleeing to the mountains in the day of the Lord which supports Rev 12 the woman is Israel.

That is correct but Israel didn’t gave birth to Jesus literally, Mary did.

If you were to interpret it as individuals. The woman as being interpreted as an individual, the woman would be Mary. Do you deny that the male-child is Jesus? Because most agree the male child is Jesus.

 

[Linnyo]

Rev 12 is refering to the nation of Israel, not Mary
Verse 6 states the woman fled into the wilderness after the Child was caught up to God and His throne.
Historically this never happened to Mary.
The 12 stars in verse 1 are the twelve tribes.
Zech14:5 talks about Israel fleeing to the mountains in the day of the Lord which supports Rev 12 the woman is Israel.

Who’s definition is this and by what authority do they speak?

 

[heisenburg]

I find it interesting that the original question was “is praying to Mary required”

We all in unison said no…

Yet somehow, the conversation still turned into us deifying Mary…

We are told that praying the Rosary puts Mary above Jesus

Everyone in Unison correct this, and almost everyone stated that praying they rosary has increased their devotion to Jesus. It was even agreed upon that an understanding of the rosary was lacking

We are told, but the Hail Marys detract… how can we do both…
Explained its just a matter of multitasking

We are told that the Hail Marys in the rosary out Mary above Jesus
We shake our heads and explain no, its just like me praying with you to Jesus

We are told our praying with Mary is necromancy
Even though Necromancy is about conjuring up the dead for personal gain

We are told Mary is dead
Even though our God is not the God of the Dead, but the living

We are told we deify

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. But it seems you do not care, but are more interested in repeating allegations which we have answered you over and over.

Do you want to talk about the Hail Mary?

Or are you really just trying to say we worship her

If we truely did worship her, why do we Deny it. We do we always say we must have our focus on god?

Or do you not care about this, and are only interested in what you were mistakenly taught…

May you be blessed in your journey

In Christ

 

[mikeledes]

It was heisenberg who said the rosary was the bible in post#28.
That is not the catholic view?
I expect the apologists on this forum are giving me the official catholic teaching.My mistake.

You took what he said out of context. What he meant was that the Rosary was like a summary of the Bible.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Rev 12 is refering to the nation of Israel, not Mary
Verse 6 states the woman fled into the wilderness after the Child was caught up to God and His throne.
Historically this never happened to Mary.
The 12 stars in verse 1 are the twelve tribes.
Zech14:5 talks about Israel fleeing to the mountains in the day of the Lord which supports Rev 12 the woman is Israel.

Israel “gave birth” through a woman named Mary. Mary is a symbol of Israel.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[rtconstant]

The people who are in heaven are alive.

Then stop saying that Communion of the Saints is praying to the dead.

But there is no way to know that a person on earth who has died,
is actually in heaven.

You mean like you don’t know if your friends in Church are going to go to Heaven yet? I bet you pray with them all the time though. I bet you feel pretty confident that they are saved don’t you? So why is it that you can just assume your average joe at Church is a Saint but those that have been canonized and who have lived lives of holiness your buddies could only imagine you have doubts about? Interesting.

Furthermore there is no way of knowing if that person who died can read your mind to hear your prayers, or physically hear them.

Well Abraham could hear people in Hell why couldn’t he hear people on earth? Also the Saints in Revelations seemed to be aware of all that was going on in the events of the book. So they seem to have been pretty aware.

You say the church tells us who is in heaven, but how do they know?
Where did they come up with the criteria for who makes it in to heaven?
Does the church know what is going on in the hearts and minds of those that die?

Again I refer you to the above. The Church declares saints of those with exceptional lives of holiness and who have miracles associated with their faith. Again if you’re comfortable with the salvation of fellow Church goers with whom you pray why would you even waste time questioning the salvation of people like the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Apostles or St. Francis?

We can see from the recent saying of the saintly Mother Theresa that even she doubted that God even existed.
How can anyone but God claim to know what is in the hearts of men?

Yet everyone in the world including Muslims and Hindus know she is a Saint.

 

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by Fidelis
When you say things like this, it is clear that not only do you not know anything about Mary, you also don’t know anything about God. Or logic.

Not very charitable when you spin out post after post after post accusing billions of Catholics of being necromancers and worshipers of false god(dess’)s and misrepresenting what the Church teaches even though you have been charitably corrected time and time again.

 

[Gamera]

Mary was human.
She needed a savior.Lk1:47
Your statement deifies her.

Catholics agree that Mary needed a savior. That’s the whole point of the Immaculate Conception. We don’t think that Mary “didn’t need a Savior;” rather, we think that Jesus saved Mary at the moment of her conception. Notice that in Luke 1:47 Mary refers to Jesus as ALREADY being her Savior.

 

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by Fidelis
When you say things like this, it is clear that not only do you not know anything about Mary, you also don’t know anything about God. Or logic.

Not very charitable when you spin out post after post after post accusing billions of Catholics of being necromancers and worshipers of false god(dess’)s and misrepresenting what the Church teaches even though you have been charitably corrected time and time again.

And why don’t you answer my question instead of ignoring it to act like the offended party here?

 

[misslollipops]

And why don’t you answer my question instead of ignoring it to act like the offended party here?

Answer to question:no

 

[justasking4]

Catholics agree that Mary needed a savior. That’s the whole point of the Immaculate Conception. We don’t think that Mary “didn’t need a Savior;” rather, we think that Jesus saved Mary at the moment of her conception. Notice that in Luke 1:47 Mary refers to Jesus as ALREADY being her Savior.

Mary is not referring here to Jesus as Savior but the God of the OT.

Secondly, there is no evidence at all that Mary was somehow saved at the moment of conception. In fact you will find that there were early church fathers who thought she had sinned.