Praying the Hail Mary

[DebChris]

Much has been posted in the past 24 hours. I just finished catching up.
As Mercygate states, the Saints have aligned their will with that of God. None of us is able to do that but by the action of the Holy Spirit as he guides us in our relationship to the Father.
In any endeavor of our lives, we need guidance. Nowhere is that more true than in our walk with God. Without somebody else to share our journey, it is easy to become lost. We need each other’s fellowship. We can pray to the saints because they have already completed the journey. They know the hazards that lie before us. We do not need to repeat their mistakes in order to learn the same lessons.
Fidelis (#198) writes “debate for the sake of debate is fruitless contentiousness.” Scripture itself warns against quibbling.
jmcrae (#225) states, “Mary belongs entirely to God, and everything she has she gives to him.” She gave her life in order to care for the infant child. It was she who pointed to the lack of wine at the wedding and Jesus responded to this need. She never sought recognition for her own sake and it is for this reason that she is honored. She held Jesus in her womb and in her arms. At his death she continued to hold him in her heart and in her arms. Her very name, Mary, meaning ocean, reflects this role of holding the Living Waters of our salvation.
Our goal is an intimate relationship with the Father. Let it never be forgotten that we are to reflect the image of our creator. Yet out of weakness and pride, we have allowed that image to be distorted. We go to Mary in order to go to Jesus. Mary acts as our mediatrix of intercession. As St. Louis deMontfort writes, “In serving [Mary], we see our pure nature,” To go to God the Father, we must go to Jesus for he is our Mediator of Redemption.
As guanaphore acknowledges, many of us become distracted and have difficulty meditating on the mysteries of the rosary. I have shared on other threads, the single word/phrase I was taught to add after “and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus_____.” It definitely helps.
Our individual relationship and journey is as individual as each of us is. There are times for contempletive prayer, for meditating on the mysteries, and for praying in the prayer language with which God has blessed many of us. What is important is that we do accept the salvation that is offered us. It is the Holy Spirit who deepens our relationship to God, the relationship to which each of us is called.
The night before he died, my father asked my mother for his rosary. He died with his rosary in his hand, a gift of the Holy Spirit. Louis deMontfont writes that if a sinner should begin praying the rosary, he will give up one or the other. No, praying the Hail Mary is not necessary for salvation. Neither does it impede our progress to the Father.

 

[heisenburg]

Miss…
IF it was the statue that helped… I can assure you it was not because of God…

Burying a statue upside down to sell your house is nothing more than witchcraft. I do not say this to attack you at all, only to say that such a practice isn’t Catholic, It isn’t Christian…

In Christ

 

[jpusateri]

See my reference to ecclisiastes.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

Perhaps you forgot that I have already pointed out that you are incorrectly understanding that verse (and Ecclesiates in general).

The point of view of Ecclesiates is of one who does not believe in life after death in order to show how ridiculous that point of view is.

 

[jmcrae]

None of the Catholic Teachings come from the Scripture, or are “hinged” on scripture. The Teaching of Jesus and the Apostles all preceeded scripture. Scripture is a reflection of these teachings, not the source.

Interesting statement.

The reason Catholic teaching doesn’t come from the Bible is that we didn’t actually have a completed Bible, yet, until 405 AD.

The first word of the New Testament (Paul’s greeting to the Thessalonians) was written down in 54 AD, which is 21 years after Christ ascended into Heaven. During the period between 33 AD and the completion of the New Testament writings in 95 AD, the Apostles and their followers relied only on the Oral Tradition.

During the period between 95 AD and 405 AD, some of the books and letters written by the Apostles and their followers began to be recognized as “holy writing,” suitable to be read out at Mass alongside the Old Testament readings, and in 405 AD, in response to the questions being raised about this practice in the Church, Pope Innocent I infallibly proclaimed that the 27 books that we now have in our New Testament are, in fact, Scripture, equal in status to the writings of Moses and the Prophets in the Old Testament.

Catholic teaching was fully developed long before this, though - it came from the Apostles themselves; we didn’t wait until 405 AD to see whether we could teach certain things - rather, it is because we were already teaching these things that Pope Innocent I was able to know which books to put in the Bible: that is, those books that did not contradict the teaching of the Church.

In my next post, I will show more detail about this.

 

[jmcrae]

Where We Got the Bible

Jesus Christ lived on the earth and taught - 30-33 AD.
He died for our sins (March 25), rose again from the dead (March 27), and ascended into Heaven (May 5) - 33 AD
The Holy Spirit comes down upon the Apostles at Pentecost, and they begin their formal teaching ministry - May 15, 33 AD
During the period between Pentecost and the promulgaton of the Didache, everything is in oral form - nothing is written down, yet.
The Didache, a summary of the Apostles’ teachings, is put together by a number of different writers, possibly including the Apostles themselves: it’s used as a teaching book for new converts: the first formal RCIA program is organized - 50 AD.
St. Paul begins to write to the Thessalonians - summer of 54 AD. He writes a series of letters to a number of churches between 54 AD and the time of his death in 69 AD.
Matthew, Mark and Luke begin work on their Gospels - 60 - 75 AD.
St. John writes his Gospel - 75 AD.
St. Clement writes to the Corinthians in 85 AD.
St. John the Apostle finishes writing the Book of Revelation on the Island of Patmos - some time between 90-95 AD.
St. Ignatius of Antioch writes to the seven Churches in 110 AD.

These and other writings, including letters from James, Jude, Peter, and John, and the Shepherd of Hermas, begin to be copied individually, and circulated among the churches. (At this point, there is no concept that any of these works are Scripture - they are considered to be “writings of interest” but none of them are yet considered to be equal with the Old Testament writings.

Over time, there is a gradual realization that some of these books may well be Scripture. Excitement mounts, and a number of different Bishops, including some Popes, make out lists showing which ones they think are Scripture.

In 393 AD, Pope Damasus convenes a council in Rome for the purpose of determining once and for all, first of all, whether there is in fact a New Testament, and if so, of what does it consist? This council produces the list of 27 books that we are all so familiar with today. As a check, two other councils are convened - one in Hippo under the leadership of Augustine, and the other in Carthage, and given the same mission. These two councils both come up with the same list of 27 books as the council of Rome. Pope Damasus having died in the mean time, Pope Innocent I examines the results of these three councils and assures himself that their research was sound - once he has completed this work, he infallibly proclaims to the whole Church that this particular list of 27 books is, in fact, the New Testament. He sets St. Jerome and his team to the task of gathering these 27 books together, translating them into Latin, and placing them into a single codex for handy use at Mass in the churches.

Once this task was completed, the job of copying and distributing it began. At first, this job was done entirely by hand, and it could take a whole year to complete just one Book of the Gospels, but as time went on, and more copies became available, more and more copyists went to work, and the number of Bibles in the world began to double every two years, until the invention of the printing press in the 1400s, which increased the speed of production by orders of magnitude, until today, Bibles are cheap enough for nearly every human being on the planet to have one.

 

[BanksOfTheTiber]

Excellent post! :clapping:

 

[DebChris]

Miss…
IF it was the statue that helped… I can assure you it was not because of God…

Burying a statue upside down to sell your house is nothing more than witchcraft. I do not say this to attack you at all, only to say that such a practice isn’t Catholic, It isn’t Christian…

In Christ

There is a difference between superstition, as described, and intercessory prayer. Chain letters that require a person to forward to 5 friends in order for God’s blessings to flow down on us are another example of superstition that is contrary to Catholic teaching.

 

[mercygate]

There is a difference between superstition, as described, and intercessory prayer. Chain letters that require a person to forward to 5 friends in order for God’s blessings to flow down on us are another example of superstition that is contrary to Catholic teaching.

I have heard the St. Joseph statue thing defended by responsible Catholic apologists. But they do it from a generous interpretation of “faith.” I won’t be digging any holes in my lawn and sticking St. Joseph in there upside down! :nope:

I will probably ask the powerful Patron of Families to intercede for us to sell/buy our homes advantageously. I don’t think he will mind not having his image buried in my lawn.

 

[DebChris]

I have heard the St. Joseph statue thing defended by responsible Catholic apologists. But they do it from a generous interpretation of “faith.” I won’t be digging any holes in my lawn and sticking St. Joseph in their upside down! :nope:

I will probably ask the powerful Patron of Families to interced for us to sell/buy our homes advantageously. I don’t think he will mind not having his image buried in my lawn.

I think you and I are of the same mind on this.

 

[cecilia97]

The upside down statue worked for me 4 times. Made a ton of money. But I can’t do it anymore. Because it dishonors God.
Now I rely on Him solely.

Any truly knowledgable Catholic would agree that this is at best a silly superstition and at worst it does dishonor God because we should place our trust in Him, not buried statuettes

It didn’t “work” for you. That was coincidence. You sold those properties because God allowed it for some reason.

I’m really sorry someone taught you this horrible, watered down, surface-only version of the Faith.

 

[mikeledes]

The upside down statue worked for me 4 times. Made a ton of money. But I can’t do it anymore. Because it dishonors God.
Now I rely on Him solely.

That is not an orthodox Catholic practice. In fact, it is a superstition that violates Catholic teaching. You can clearly find that in the Catechism. It seems to me that you are confusing corruptions of Catholic teachings and practice with actual Catholicism.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Doesn’t an apologetics website need an opposing viewpoint?
If this is all about defending your faith doesn’t there need to be someone to defend it against?
You need people like me.
Or there wouldn’t be a spirited debate.

No, we don’t need any trolls here, thanks. there are plenty of people that genuinely want to learn about the faith. Our willingness to make a reasoned explanation for what we believe should not be confused with a license for you to attack it. You clearly have many resentments about the Catholic faith, and your experience in particular. You have found something that meets your needs, why attack that which meets ours?

 

[YADA]

I looked up in the New American Bible (catholic) and this is what it says in the footnotes on the woman in Revelations 12:1;

1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

It appears that this particular catholic interpretation supports the protestant view.

Yes - it can mean those things too, Mary is the most clearly recognized meaning behind the text [Eve and Satan - enmity between your seed and the woman’s seed - He will crush your head…etc] the reference to to the peole of Isreal and the Church is not as directly understood…Mary is considered to be the Mother of the Church…

Scripture can have layered meanings, even Protestant bible scholars acknowledge that - [except for any beliefs they have abandoned in their turn away from the church , like the Perpetual Virginty. You do know of course that the reformers held this belief. Later Protestant [really very recent] abandoned the belief of mary as Ever Virgin…It is a modernistic view that arises out of the period called the Enlightement…

Scripture is very rich [textural] in meaning…

 

[guanophore]

Are you aware of the first promise of the rosary?

Imparted to Saint Dominic and Blessed Alan

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive single graces.

My earthly mother is in her 70’s now, and I serve her every chance I can get. I wish I could do even more for her. If I had lived in Mary’s day, I would love to wait on her hand and foot, our of reverence for her divine son. I would even try to get her to eat my barbeque!

 

[guanophore]

I hate to bring this up, because it will come off in a way I do not mean.

But are you aware that Francisco Marto was told by Mary at Fatima that he would go to heaven if he prayed many Rosaries.?

I thought it was the other way around? That he would have many rosaries to pray before he got to heaven?

I was thinking about the closing of the rosary, that says “that I may be made worthy of the promises of Christ”. This is the salvation message in a nutshell. Jesus died for our sins, and by faith we are saved through grace. And Jesus wants us to be holy, and worthy of the sacrifice He gave on the cross, that we should be without blemish.

 

[guanophore]

So, praying the Rosary is efficacious for salvation for some, but not all. That doesn’t pass “the sniff test”.

You don’t think certain types of devotion work well for some, and not others? Do you think all are called to be a monk/nun, for example? It seems to me that there are so many private devotions, it would be easy to find one that suits each personality.

He was only six or seven years old at the time…and yet The Church affirms his vision, and those of his siblings

Do you think that God cannot reveal things to children?

 

[guanophore]

If you read some of my previous posts, you will see that the
PEOPLE in the catholic faith were the biggest reason for me leaving.
Sadly, many of the interactions on this site leave me feeling the same way. More peel.

This is understandible. Generally, when a person feels attacked and criticized about the beliefs that are most valuable and important to them, they get defensive/sour.

 

[guanophore]

And the church knows they are in heaven HOW?

I thought I answered this, but in case I did not…God reveals it to the Church.

And the church knows they can read your mind when you pray silently, HOW?

I don’t know if they “read minds”. It is more likely they read the spirit. Do you not believe that God is able to allow one person to read the heart of another?

And the church knows they can physically hear your voice, HOW?

No, I don’t think so. Since they are separated from their body, how they “hear” is different. Although, I am thinking about Saul’s conversation with Samuel, and he certainly responded as though he could “hear” Saul. on the other hand, Jesus could certainly enable one to “hear” whether they had physical ears, or not. The Angels interact with humans, and 'hear" humans, but they don’t have physical bodies.

And the church knows they can actually pray for you HOW?

They were praying for others before they were separated from their bodies, and we believe that God does not take back His gifts.

 

[guanophore]

Just as a note…

This is the dumbest man made tradition started by really dumb catholics that are looking for some superstitious method for selling a house… :banghead:

Whats worse is that people actually believe this is a Church teaching…:doh2:

Miss… you are absolutely right in questioning this one practice.

That being said… remember ALL prayers sanctioned by the church ultimately point to Christ. Praying with the saints in heaven is NO different than me praying with you. with the exception of they are in heaven, and per the bible, their prayers hold more weight “The prayers of the righteous man have great weight”

Anyway… I’m sure there is, but didn’t really look… the upside down statue mess… i wished there was a smiley that, well, was returning his once eaten lunch

In Christ

I have never heard of this. What type of superstition is it?

 

[BanksOfTheTiber]

I thought it was the other way around? That he would have many rosaries to pray before he got to heaven?

I heard a nun on EWTN say this, and then went online to confirm it. If I am wrong (and that happens more than I care to divulge) I have several sources which mis-informed me. Honest

I was thinking about the closing of the rosary, that says “that I may be made worthy of the promises of Christ”. This is the salvation message in a nutshell. Jesus died for our sins, and by faith we are saved through grace. And Jesus wants us to be holy, and worthy of the sacrifice He gave on the cross, that we should be without blemish.

I couldn’t agree more! I don’t accept the OSAS nonsense of my youth, anymore. Salvation isn’t an act (as my Baptist friends tried to tell me), it’s a journey. That being said, the original discussion was in reaction to MannyFit’s response where /he said/I infered/I mis-understood/ (pick one) that praying the Rosary is efficacious for salvation.

It is not. No recitation of any prayer is. Otherwise, we could chant or recite our way right into the arms of the Lord! Christ wants us to be Holy as he is Holy. That only happens when we strive to do as He has commanded us. Attempt to live an upright, and just life, and place ourselves in the center of His will for us.