Praying the Hail Mary

[ChrisWRIT]

eccl 9:5-6
5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Amen.

Now, I’m not responding to Lollipops, since she doesn’t want any answers that don’t say “By golly, you’re right! We should all drop our faith and join miss lollipops and her [two] pastors.”

However, I notice that many seem to have made the claim (or implication) that Ecclesiastes is “outdated” or somehow contradicts the rest of Scripture, but I have to (somewhat) agree with her here. Ecclesiastes is the inspired Word of God, & is just as true and inerrant today as when it was written.

That said, it should probably be noted that since the Bible cannot contradict itself, the passage she keeps repeating (and repeating, and repeating, and repeating, …) talks about eternal death rather than physical death.

Saints who have died can bring others back to life?

Of course! And all through the power of Christ, as perfected members of the Body of Christ. You keep claiming to be such a biblical scholar - I find it surprising you don’t remember the many miracles being stated all over the book of Acts. The apostles healed many people, and both Peter & Paul raised physically dead people back to life.

Can they also forgive sins?

Careful, you sound like the scribes who questioned the authority given to men to forgive sins, which Jesus passed on to the apostles and their successors (which has been pointed out to you more than once.)

It’s THROWING a Hail Mary which imperils your salvation.

Sorry, it’s football season.

Good one!

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;

Quote:justasking4
It is true there are disctinctions and these disctinctions and boundaries must always be kept in mind when it comes to prayer. We have direct access to the Father through Christ our High Priest. Only He alone has the power to intercede directly to the Father for us. Believers in this world can pray to Him for others needs. There is no mention of the third category of praying to those who have died also. In fact Ecclesiastes 9:4-6;10 goes against the very idea of praying to those who have died.
jmcrae;
The writer of the book of Ecclesiastes (presumably Solomon) had no concept of an after-life.

Let me encourage you to read chapter 12 of this book. For example this is what he writes:
5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.
6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”
9 In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs.
10 The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly.
11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.
12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

There is no doubt he did have a good conception of the afterlife.

 

[guanophore]

Luke 14:26 (New King James Version)

26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Luke 8:19-21 (New King James Version)
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Come to Him

19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

Misslollipops, you may be using Jesus’ words here to support your attitude, unforgiveness, bitterness, and behavior toward your parents, but it will not wash. Those of us who are educated in our faith understand this to be hyperbole, which is one of Jesus’ favorite teaching methods.

We also know that Mary, His mother, was the absolute BEST example of those who hear the word of God, and do it.

 

[guanophore]

It occurs to me, reading this, that I serve my cat. Certainly, I feed her, change her box, I let her have (at least) half of the bed at night.Her nickname among my friends, is “Baby Boss”.
But you know, I don’t think that anyone thinks that I worship her…even if I do have :bowdown: to her in my signature…(OK; **she **probably thinks that I worship her…)

Your wish; my command:http://bestsmileys.com/puking/2.gif !!:tiphat:

I TOTALLY agree, Zooey. My cats have me completely trained. I do everything on command. I change the box, serve up the food, open doors and go fetch the brush. I even rearrange myself in the bed so they can sit on the elbow chosen. I, too, am a servant of the feline forces.

 

[guanophore]

Very charitable. Do you know what charity means?

Charity means speaking the truth in love. The truth is that you were very spiritually wounded as a child. Your parents and Godparents baptized you, and promised to raise you according to the Teachings, then failed to do so. You did not come to know Jesus as you should, and you fell into all kinds of superstitions. You did not cathect the grace of your baptism, and wandered into all manner of licentiousnes and depravity.

Now you have bitterness and resentments toward the church because of the pain you sufffered.

The truth is that many of your posts do indeed come across as “small, pety and disingenuous and does little to further the dialogue…”

 

[guanophore]

It is evident that the rich man can hear lazarus and they can see each other. It is very obvious.
Is there any indication from that passage that any of those people can hear you when you pray to them?

Is there any indiction they cannot? If your rendition of Ecclesiastes is true, how is it they can converse with one another at all? The point is that these examples contravert the passage you posted.

Jesus is teaching something different from what Ecclesiastes records.

Can they read your mind when you are praying silently?

Or maybe the spirit or heart. It is up to God what anyone hears, or does not, in the Spirit. Why did Paul want to go to Macedonia? How did Peter know that Annanias and Sapphira lied?

Can they hear you when you are speaking a prayer?

God can do whatever He wants. Catholics believe He wants us to pray for one another.

Are they capable of answering your prayers?

God can make anyone and anything as capable as He wishes. He can make the rocks cry out and a donkey prophesy…

Num 22:28
28 Then the LORD opened the mouth of the ***,

Does Abraham or Lazarus have the power to answer your prayer?

As God desires.

Or are prayers answered by God?

You are making a distinction that does not exist. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. All those “in Christ” cannot be separated from Him.

Rom 8:38-39
" For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Which dictionary did you use to get that
char·i·ty (chăr’ĭ-tē)
n., pl. -ties.
Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
Something given to help the needy; alms.
An institution, organization, or fund established to help the needy.
Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.
Indulgence or forbearance in judging others. See synonyms at mercy.
often Charity Christianity. The theological virtue defined as love directed first toward God but also toward oneself and one’s neighbors as objects of God’s love.
[Middle English charite, from Old French, Christian love, from Latin cāritās, affection, from cārus, dear.]

What you have been getting here, misslollipops, is benevolence and generosity. The truth can sometimes be blunt, and painful. Confronting you about your errors in thinking and judgement is an act of faith, done out of reverence for Christ.

" whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5:20

 

[Hellisreal]

Θεοτόκε Παρθένε, χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη Μαρία, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξί, καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου, ὅτι Σωτήρα ἔτεκες τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν.[3]

Mother of God and Virgin, hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls.

 

[guanophore]

Saints who have died can bring others back to life?
Can they heal people?

Of course! They can do nothing apart from God, but…

John 14:12-14

12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; 14 if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Can they also forgive sins?

At least those committed against themselves. For example, the mother of Jesus can forgive the rudeness of those who reject her divinely ordained role in salvation.

I am not sure, though, about anything beyond that. It seems that Jesus commissioned the Apostle’s for that.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by misslollipops forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
See my reference to ecclisiastes.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)

IMHO
*

5 For the living know that they will die;

*Reasonbly understandable.
*

But the dead know nothing,

• hmmmmmmmmmmmm

And they have no more reward,

• They have no more reward. This can only mean that the dead mentioned are damned to hell. If they have no more reward then they will never see heaven and God since that in itself is a reward for faith.

For the memory of them is forgotten.

• **Only the damned could be forgotten by those of us who make it to the beatific vision. **

**6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; **
*Nevermore will they have a share *
*In anything done under the sun. *

These dead possess hatred and envy. These cannot be the righteous, they can only be the condemned.

---

IMHO

 

[JoeyWarren]

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

The Scriptural Rosary. My spouse just purchased this book for us.

rosarycreations.com/scriptural_rosary_history.htm

rosarycreations.com/scripturalrosary.htm

 

[heisenburg]

Just a thought…

hasn’t the original question been answered already?

If you want to talk about validity of praying with the saints, fine, but perhaps a thread titled as such would be more appropriate…

In Christ

 

[rtconstant]

Originally Posted by misslollipops
Saints who have died can bring others back to life?
Can they heal people?

read 2 Kings 13:20-21

 

[YADA]

That said, it should probably be noted that since the Bible cannot contradict itself, the passage she keeps repeating (and repeating, and repeating, and repeating, …) talks about eternal death rather than physical death.

This is an important point…we do not “die the death” to quote Genesis when we die to this life on earth…

As many have said God is the “God of the living, not the dead”

In Genesis, when Satan temps Eve and says [as it is commonly translated] “Surely you will not die”

the original texts reads “Surely you will not die, die”

Which many scholars feel should be translated “die the death”

So what does die the death mean?..what did Jesus come as the new Adam to do?..Salvation?!..saving us from death!..restoring us to a life everlasting!!!..

but we still die a bodily death…

the death that we are saved from is the eternal death …THE DEATH that keeps us from the presence of our Creator…

Passages from scripture that speak of those who are dead and have no life, no knowledge, are not speaking about all of the dead because so many other passages give us information about the dead who are seen, recognized, hear, and see…speak and listen, they know…

And scripture must be read and understood in context, respecting the culture and times when it was written, the audience for which it was initially written and in the totality of God’s revealing of himself to man as written through the words of man. Inspired not dictated…scripture is the inspired word of God not the dictated word of God.

 

[jmcrae]

Let me encourage you to read chapter 12 of this book. For example this is what he writes:
5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.
6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”
9 In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs.
10 The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly.
11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.
12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

There is no doubt he did have a good conception of the afterlife.

I think you may be reading your own concept of the afterlife into this passage. When he speaks of the “eternal home” he is referring to the literal dust of the earth; not Heaven or Hell. He certainly has no idea of the Resurrection of the dead, because he says that the body returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God.

Despite his lack of knowledge about the afterlife, he still understands that God will judge us at the time of death. He believes that God’s opinion of us is all that will be left of us after we die. That being so, let it be a good one - follow the Commandments, and do good even when no one but God is looking.

 

[Randy_Carson]

In Hebrews 4:14-16 Jesus is referred to as the Priest High Priest who intercedes for us before the Father.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Is Mary in scripture ever presented as a high priest?

No, since women cannot be priests. However, there is no question that Mary is a mediator.

Mary as Mediatrix Proved From Scripture

The Catholic Church recognizes Mary’s role in salvation history and invokes her under the title of Mediatrix. However, many people struggle to understand how Mary can have this role which they reserve for Christ alone, and they cite the following verse in support of their position:

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Hebrews 7:24-25
because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Here we see that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for “those who come to God through him.” The role of the mediator and the intercessor are synonymous; a mediator lives to intercede for others.

All Christians are called to be mediators or intercessors for one another because we are all members of Christ’s body as we see from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Paul referred to himself as a co-laborer with Christ when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers.

Paul went further in his understanding of our responsibility as co-laborers with Christ when when he wrote:

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Is anything lacking from the perfect sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross? Paul clearly indicates that more is to be done and that he makes up what is “still lacking” in his own flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation

Additionally, we know that we are called to share in the priesthood of all believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:5-9), and a priest, by definition, is called to be a mediator between God and men. Each of us is called to this role and to be a mediator or mediatrix for others before God.

Therefore, if we are all called to this role of mediator and intercessor for one another, how much more can this be said of Mary who said, “Yes” to God and brought Christ into the world?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Speaking of this, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

[967](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/967.htm’) By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus) of the Church.

[968](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/968.htm’) Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”

---

[969](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/969.htm’) “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

---

[970](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/970.htm’) “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.” “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”