Praying to saints.

[MarkThompson]

He somewhat is. He’s harping on you guys while ignoring those of us who have refuted his claims using Scripture.

Or those of us who have refuted his premise. But whatever.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Hebrews 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a **cloud of witnesses **over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Thes 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you;

Ephesians 6:18 By all **prayer and supplication **praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:

Tobias 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night,** I offered thy prayer to the Lord.**

I believe you missed this post. You asked for Scripture and here it is.

 

[Melchior_1]

Saul reaching out to Samuel in the bible when Samuel had departed this earth.

Incorrect. Saul was rebuked because he went to a seer/diviner, which not only breaks God’s Law but also the law that Saul placed himself.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Hmmm, I just heard a catholic say that only the bible was divinely inspired, now you say the Sacred Tradition was divinely insprired.

Absolutely. What Catholic said only the Bible was divinely inspired?

BTW, lowercase c catholic merely means universal and refers to all Christians of all denominations. Those here on this website are uppercase C Catholic, meaning they are in union with the Bishop of Rome. Just for future reference.

 

[cs80918]

That’s what I’m asking you. You said, A doctrine has to be in the Bible for it to be true. Where did you get that idea? Where in the Bible?

If anything is contrary to the bible it is false. Example.

If someone says Jesus was not God. That statement is false because it is contrary to the bible.

If someone says or write that God is evil. That is contrary to the word of God.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

If anything is contrary to the bible it is false. Example.

If someone says Jesus was not God. That statement is false because it is contrary to the bible.

If someone says or write that God is evil. That is contrary to the word of God.

Okay, what’s your point? You have not yet proven that anything Catholics believe is contrary to the Bible. Catholics would agree with you.

 

[cs80918]

I say something similar to this quite often;

We know Paul wrote two letters to the church at Corinth. We also have historical documents that show Clement wrote one as well.

cs80918, why are Paul’s letters in the Bible but Clement’s aren’t?

Also, you never responded to my post about Revelations 5 and Prince Michael.

I must love to debate, because this gets me excited. I hope all of this makes us stronger for God.

Prince Michael from what I remember of reading this was fighting a battle with demons. Where does it say that he was Pray as an intercessor?

 

[MarkThompson]

If anything is contrary to the bible it is false. Example.

Okay, and what about things that are not contrary to the Bible, but that supplement the Bible?

Make sure you keep in mind John 14:26.

 

[cs80918]

I say something similar to this quite often;

We know Paul wrote two letters to the church at Corinth. We also have historical documents that show Clement wrote one as well.

cs80918, why are Paul’s letters in the Bible but Clement’s aren’t?

Also, you never responded to my post about Revelations 5 and Prince Michael.

I have not researched this in years, but from what I remember why they were left out or lest Clement’s writing. Is because he was not an apostle or at the very least he was not mentioned in any of the other writings of the new testament.

 

[Melchior_1]

I must love to debate, because this gets me excited. I hope all of this makes us stronger for God.

Prince Michael from what I remember of reading this was fighting a battle with demons. Where does it say that he was Pray as an intercessor?

God empowered Michael to fight on His behalf. We can agree on this because it is clearly in Scripture. This leads us into two questions;

• Why would God do that, He can do it Himself, yes?
• If this guy is running around killing demons because God made it Michael’s job, why not ask him for help? He’s helping God already anyway (this is clear in Scripture as well).

If Mike can help God, he can help us. That simple.

And please answer my question about why those Elders are doing by the Throne in the first place while holding onto our prayers. Are those prayers not supposed to go directly to Jesus? Explain this.

 

[cs80918]

Hebrews 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a **cloud of witnesses **over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Thes 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you;

Ephesians 6:18 By all **prayer and supplication **praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:

Tobias 12:12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night,** I offered thy prayer to the Lord.**

Well the book of Tobias is not in my bible. Also, none of the verse directly without a doubt say that SAINT X in heaven was praying for Y person on earth.

 

[Melchior_1]

I have not researched this in years, but from what I remember why they were left out or lest Clement’s writing. Is because he was not an apostle or at the very least he was not mentioned in any of the other writings of the new testament.

Hebrews has no specific Author. And Paul himself was never an Apostle in the truest sense.

Try again.

 

[paramedicgirl]

You clearly do not want to debate your original point. You keep ignoring the scriptural references we gave you to prove the intercession of the saints in heaven is in the bible. Oh, well. I have lots to prove tradition too, if you need them.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Well the book of Tobias is not in my bible. Also, none of the verse directly without a doubt say that SAINT X in heaven was praying for Y person on earth.

Many of them imply it, and none of them contradict it. Good thing we have an infallible magisterium telling us it’s okay.

 

[Melchior_1]

Well the book of Tobias is not in my bible. Also, none of the verse directly without a doubt say that SAINT X in heaven was praying for Y person on earth.

Considering that the Official Canon (including Tobit) was ratified at around 370 AD< I have to wonder why it is not in your Bible.

 

[cs80918]

See, this is really a load of garbage.

My faith is in the Catholic Church because it is inspired by God. Faith in the Church is equal to faith in God. The ridiculous and insulting comment that, “It would not matter if Jesus sat down with you at a table and explained all the false doctrines of the catholic church” because we still wouldn’t believe is laughable.

You have given us absolutely no evidence-none-that would make us believe your point of view. You’ve asked us to explain our POV. We have, and instead of debating us properly (or conceding the point, though I’m sure that even if Jesus came down and himself and told you the truth of the Catholic Church you wouldn’t believe it ) you got all annoyed that we weren’t crumbling under your oh-so superior logic and have decided that it is “not worth your time” to debate.

Well, fine. It wasn’t worth your time; you wouldn’t have won the debate anyway because we have the Truth, given to us by God, on our side.

I pray that is I am wrong about the catholic church that God will show me my errors. If God does do this then I was gladly and whole heartely rejoice and be glad. Until, that day comes I will not believe. If you believe I am wrong then pray for me so that my eyes will be opened and I will see the truth. With the mind that God has given me I currently believe the catholic church has many false doctrines.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Well the book of Tobias is not in my bible. Also, none of the verse directly without a doubt say that SAINT X in heaven was praying for Y person on earth.

Let me guess. Your bible is missing about 7 books? For a total of 66 books? Now, that is a number that makes me uneasy.

 

[Melchior_1]

I think the main objection, if I’m not mistaken, is there is no direct quote of “Saint ______, pray for us!”. I believe the logic goes like this;

• We believe that we can ask the Saints to pray for us.
• The CONCEPT of this is in the Bible.
• It is not directly said “Saint _____, pray for us!”
• Therefore asking Saints for help does not exist.

The problem with this is you can run into something like this;

• All Christians believe in the Trinity.
• The CONCEPT of the Trinity is in the Bible.
• The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible.
• Therefore the Trinity does not exist.

cs80918, explain the difference.

 

[cs80918]

To be a homosexual is not a sin. To act on it is.

This is interesting. To be a homosexual? How is someone a homosexual? You can have homosexual thoughts, but no one is born a homosexual. Yes, you are right to act on homosexual thoughts/desires is a sin, but just having that thought in your mind is not a sin. However; if in your mind you have homosexual sex (act out the act of homosexual sex then that is a sin).

 

[MarkThompson]

I pray that is I am wrong about the catholic church that God will show me my errors. If God does do this then I was gladly and whole heartely rejoice and be glad. Until, that day comes I will not believe. If you believe I am wrong then pray for me so that my eyes will be opened and I will see the truth. With the mind that God has given me I currently believe the catholic church has many false doctrines.

He did show you the error of your ways, by divinely inspiring a Bible that demonstrates that Christ established one Church on earth. He didn’t leave behind a book, he left behind a Church: the Apostles and their successors. We’re still here for you.

Or do you demand a special sign directed at only you, cs80918? Thou shalt not put the LORD thy God to the test.