Praying to saints.

[archangel04]

Okay they are holding bowls full of prayers that are like incense, means they are in some way burning. Kind of like in the old testament when God said he smelled the sweet fragrance from animal sacrifices.

I don’t know what your name is but lets say your name is Bob. So Bob you are holding a bowl of incense. Does that mean that your mouth is moving and you are praying? No, it means you are holding a bowl an smoke is coming out of it.

I guess i SHOULD of asked, can you pray directly to God.

The purpost of incense is to signify prayers going up to God

 

[cs80918]

Hebrews has no specific Author. And Paul himself was never an Apostle in the truest sense.

Try again.

This is not even the subject I orginally started on so it would take more research on this. Yes I know Paul was not an apostle that walked around with Jesus, but the apostles did write about Paul.

This is not my original topic, maybe I’ll look at this later.

 

[cs80918]

You clearly do not want to debate your original point. You keep ignoring the scriptural references we gave you to prove the intercession of the saints in heaven is in the bible. Oh, well. I have lots to prove tradition too, if you need them.

No I am not ignoring anything. You have not given me in BIbilical proof, you have only given me Bible verses that do not without a doubt say that we should pray to/ask saints in heaven to pray for us.

 

[cs80918]

I think the main objection, if I’m not mistaken, is there is no direct quote of “Saint ______, pray for us!”. I believe the logic goes like this;

• We believe that we can ask the Saints to pray for us.
• The CONCEPT of this is in the Bible.
• It is not directly said “Saint _____, pray for us!”
• Therefore asking Saints for help does not exist.

The problem with this is you can run into something like this;

• All Christians believe in the Trinity.
• The CONCEPT of the Trinity is in the Bible.
• The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible.
• Therefore the Trinity does not exist.

cs80918, explain the difference.

Where in the bible is the concept clearly mentioned?

 

[archangel04]

No I am not ignoring anything. You have not given me in BIbilical proof, you have only given me Bible verses that do not without a doubt say that we should pray to/ask saints in heaven to pray for us.

The Church does not say that you should pray to saints at all! You can just include Jesus our Lord in your prayers, you don’t have to ask aynyone else for payers, but I am sure they will still pray for you espcially our blessed mother Mary. Again you don’t have to pray to any saint if you are a Catholic.

 

[cs80918]

He did show you the error of your ways, by divinely inspiring a Bible that demonstrates that Christ established one Church on earth. He didn’t leave behind a book, he left behind a Church: the Apostles and their successors. We’re still here for you.

Or do you demand a special sign directed at only you, cs80918? Thou shalt not put the LORD thy God to the test.

He left the bible and the Helper, the Holy Spirit. Read in the bible about the holy spirit. Paul mentions something about the Holy Spirit teaching him. Paul is not the only one taught by the holy spirit. Different subject but no where in the Bible does it say that Peter was the first pope… what verse says "Peter was the first Pope, and I am establising the catholic church on Peter? No where does it say that.

 

[cs80918]

I will pray that you find the Truth.

How will you pray? What will you say? I’m curious. Not being mean. I just wonder exactly word for word how will you pray this?

 

[cs80918]

The word “Bible” is not in the bible either.

I know the Bible means “books”. The trinity is not in the Bible either. We could go around saying God the father, son and holy spirit or is it much easier to just say Trinity.

 

[cs80918]

So Catholics are still not worth your time? You’re only here out of obligation to respond to the posts directed at you?

Are you going to keep this one up? Does this even get us anywhere if I respond to it? I could respond several ways and debate you on this, but what would be the point?

 

[cs80918]

It’s good you are here, asking these questions. If you stick around long enough, you will see the truth of the Catholic faith, and become a Catholic! That’s what happens when most Protestants really read their bible, not just the selected verses they have memorized.

Anyways, good night everyone!

I have read the Bible from the beginning to end several times, on my own. I have known several catholics since childhood. I have partied with several catholics at mardi gras and participated in the many sins at mardi gras. I am terribly sorry to God for those sins too.

I have books on how to refute a catholic, jehovah witness, mormon, buddist, etc, etc, but usually I just read the bible. Haven’t read these books in years. On a scale of 1 to 10, I’m pretty low when it comes to a Protestant who has done extensive research on the false teachings on catholics. I hope the goal of a catholic who believes they are right when debating a protestant is to help that protestant. My goal is to help catholics, not hurt.

Most catholics I know never read the bible on their own and that can be said for many protestant or most protestants.

 

[cs80918]

I was quite polite when I was engaging in regular debate and discussion. When he went out and made an ad hominem attack on members of the Church I got mad.

Jesus made the Pharises mad too. The apostles made people mad too.

You haven’t made me mad though. Only eager.

 

[cs80918]

Saints are not dead; they are still alive, spiritually in Heaven.

Notice that the verse from says we need to listen to “Moses and the prophets” who are certainly physically dead. But they are alive in Heaven./QUOTE

Here we go again debating the term DEAD. Dead to a protestant means they have died like when you go to a funeral. You know when a doctor offically declares you dead.

That is what is meant by dead. The bible even says the dead in christ will rise first.

To be absent in the body is to be present with the lord.

The body is dead. Jesus even said Lazarus was dead. Even though Lazarus was dead Jesus talked to him. There ya go I guess thats an example of someone talking to the dead. The bible says Lazarus was dead and Jesus was still able to communicate with him. Jesus was speaking to Lazarus’s spirit. We are body soul spirit. The body may be dead, but the rest is alive. Come on now people the people speaks of talking to dead people. When Saul was Speaking to Samuel, the buy says he was communicate with a dead person. He was not communicating with a dead body, but with an alive spirit, but still the bible calls it communcating with dead people.

 

[cs80918]

Some say that we should pray directly to Christ, yet here we clearly see another party in the mix, the Elders.

Further, Little Susie says “Saint Jude, I ask that these prayers get taken Jesus”. What if Jude is one of those Elders?

Finally, let me break this down to you a bit;

Praying to the Saints is like Roadside Assistance. Your car breaks down and you need a hand. You call Roadside Assistance to help get your car to the mechanic. Roadside Assistance cannot fix your car for you, but they are empowered to take yoru car to someone who can fix it.

Roadside Assistance is the Saints, Jesus is the Mechanic.

If you prefer a 2010 version of this analogy, the Saints are like On-Star. Jesus still fixes the car though.

Would you say that intercessor means that someone is praying for you? In the bible it says that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are intercessors. It does not say that saints are. As far as the bible is concerned it looks like we are in heaven continually worshiping God, I don’t see anything about saints praying. Do you think God does not hear us without having to go through a saint? You can pray to God directly.

 

[cs80918]

That’s about conjuring ghosts. Marc Anthony was asking about verses forbidding praying to saints.

You still haven’t answered any of my questions, by the way, in case you get the chance.

What are ghosts? Are you saying Samuel a Prophet of God was a ghost?

 

[cs80918]

But those Elders, who are dead, are getting in the way of those prayers. Those prayers are not going directly to Jesus. Lets say the Elders DON’T say anything. They are still carrying those prayers. THEY received them, THEY carry them. How did they get them?

How did the Elders get those prayers? Someone had to give them those prayers, that’s how. One of the saints gave the Elders the prayers. It’s the only way it makes sense when you think about it.

Why else is there a middle-man, especially considering that apparently we are to pray directly to Jesus? If we prayed directly to Jesus the Elders would not have to carry those bowls.

Don’t be a slave to the literal letter of the law. Or else someone will point out to you that no where in Scripture does it say Scripture alone is the Sole Rule of Faith.

Do you think God could not do all this without any help? Do you think that God could not destroy satan and his demons all by his self? Do you think God needs any help with prayers?

 

[cs80918]

But not dead in spirit, which means they are not dead. You mean to tell me those in heaven are dead and cease to be a Christian? You don’t cease to be a Christian upon your earthly death, my friend.

We’re sending a letter to the Elder/Saint, the Elder/Saint puts the letter inside of that bowl. The bowl gets carried to Christ.

It’s right there in Revelations 5, you know.

Jesus said Lazarus was dead but he still talked to him. We know the body was dead but not the Spirit. When Jesus died his body was dead while his Spirit was away from his body, but when his spirit came back into his body he was alive again.

When the bible speaks of being dead it speaks of the body being dead, but the spirit is still alive. Samuel’s body was dead, but Saul was still able to communicate with him.

How else would you define communicating with the dead when the bible says don’t do it?

 

[cs80918]

I still think the bottom line here is that your whole premise assumes that if it’s not directly stated in Scripture, then it is therfore not worthy of belief.

Catholics simply don’t believe this, at all. We believe that there is divine revelation outside of Scripture called Sacred tradition, which started out as oral tradition but was later written down. Prayer to the Saints is implied in the Bible and the practice is confirmed through Sacred Tradition.

The debate here is not truly about prayer to the Saints being found in the Bible, because even if it’s not directly stated in the Bible Catholics don’t see that as a reason that it’s wrong. The debate is really about whether or not Sacred Tradition should be accepted as Divinely Inspired.

Okay then, Sacred Tradition is not Divinely Inspired. It is not because it contradicts the bible.

 

[wardrandolph]

To answer your question in a way that will help you is found in 2Macc.15:12-16.Onias,a fomer high priest(who had died)was seen praying for the whole Jewish community.vs.13-16 Jeremiah the Prophet (dead for centuries)was seen praying for his people.If you are honestly searching,take a look at your bible and its history and ask yourself why was this included in your bible untill the 1800’s?the answer is because these books along with all of the complete Bible prove the teachings of the church that was started by Jesus Christ,One Holy Catholic Church.Happy seaching,Rocky.

 

[cs80918]

Hhmmm tell me where in the bible does it say the world is round? Last time I checked it’s no where to be found, yet through science we know this is fact. Tell me where in the bible does it say that the book called the bible is the soul authority? Or in this cal Sola Scriptura.

Yes your bible is different because in the 16th century protestants removed books from the Bible. Let’s see what the Bible has to say about that?
I warn everyone who hears the prophetic works in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. Rev 22:18-19

Here is some history fo ya. During the time of Jesus, the Apostles, and the real early Church fathers, there was no book called the Bible. Most of the teachings of the Apostles were thought and spread by orally. Letters and Epistles where some of the only writings of the Apostles. Most of the writings were we get the bible from where from their followers (Church fathers). The Canons in the first 300 years were all spread out throughout the land, and there were MANY of them, some false and others authentic. It’s not until the council of Rome (382) under Pope Damasus 1st produces Damasian list with 46 OT and 27 NT books.
Year 383 Pope Damasus commissions Jerome to produce the Latin Vulgate Bible (Latin bible). In 393 The Synod of Hippo approves Damasian List which totals 73 books. 397 Council of Carthage reaffirms Synod of Hippo/Damasian List. In 405 Jerome completes the Latin Vulgate Bible, and 419 The books of the Bible are settled at the Council of Carthage. Canon of sacred Scripture is CLOSEd, 46 OT and 27 NT; This is considered official scripture forever Now what century did you bible appear? Sometime in the 16th century during the Protestant Reformation?

Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits around the circle of the earth,… okay there the bible has always said the world was round.

The Bible of Protestant Christianity contained 80 books up until 1885, when the British and Foreign Bible Society arbitrarily excluded the Apocrypha from the 1611 King James Bible. The Catholics DID NOT add books to the Bible; in fact, they removed two of the apocryphal books, II Esdras and The Prayer of Manasseh from their bible. The Apocrypha WAS part of the original Septuagint though NEVER considered scripture by the Jews, and subsequently by modern Protestant Christianity. To make matters more confusing, the early church through the Council of Carthage in AD 406 considered the Apocrypha as scripture. Also, do not confuse subsequent church councils extending into the 16th century as “official” decrees of the Christian chuch; this is related more to Catholic church history than Christian church history.

The controversy over the Apocrypha centers on the absence of New Testament quotes from those books…some see this as a lack of Divine inspiration and others do not. The 66 books that are currently in the Christian Bible are universally accepted as divinely inspired while the Apocrypha’s inspiration is generally in question in most orthodox circles.

Perhaps the most notable reasons for the continuing absence of the Apocrypha in the Protestant Christian Bible are as follows:

In Luke 11:51, Jesus Himself reveals His own opinion as to the extent of Scripture when rebuking the religious leaders of the day. At that time, the Jewish Bible (Tanakh) ran from Genesis to 2 Chronicles, not including the Apocrypha.
The Jews NEVER considered the Apocrypha as canonical.
Tradition and the belief that the Apocrypha is a bad thing added by the Catholic Church. This is historically false, yet culturally persistent in the church at large.
Failure to recognize that the Protestant church considered the Apocrypha as scripture by virtue of its persist presence in the Bible from the early church councils to well past the first edition of the 1611 King James Bible.
Reason #1 above is the MAIN reason that the Apocrypha remains out of the official canon to this day, with #2 as a strong second reason. By faith we believe that God has preserved His entire revelation in tact and in whole, and through obedience we honor the present condition of the Bible given the opinion of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[cs80918]

Yes. And far from the Bible saying that the revelations of Scripture were complete, it explicitly said that Christ had not yet taught everything and that the Holy Spirit would be sent in the future to continue the teachings.

There are other books in the bible that are written by men through the Holy Spirit, with revelations and understand that came from the Holy Spirit. Paul even says he was taught by the Holy Spirit. So that being said the knowledge/revelations from the Holy Spirit are already in the bible.