praying to virgin mary and the saints

[Tomb54]

Tomb54;5488207:

With Respect tomb54 (lovely nickname by the way), the thief on the cross did not go to heaven that day, he also is asleep in the grave…there was no punctuation in those days? ‘I say unto you today, you will be with Me in paradise’, of course he will at the ressurection!! See Hebrews 3:15. also 4:7. I could go on Brother.

Whenever a church starts is largely irrelevant! Adventist Church came out of existing churches, all the initial members came from other Protestant denominations, so after 1500 does not really hold up…and the Protestant Churches came out of the Roman Catholic Church, which in turn came out of the early Church at Jerusalem…

This just goes back to the old story of the ‘one true church’, God has his Saints in every denomination which make up the true Christian Church…

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

PS. Yes Protestant persecuted too, I disagree with Roman Catholics being persecuted too!! And yes we can agree on taking the Gospel of Good News to a dying world!!

Thanks for the comment.
So today does not mean today??? I looked up 2 different quotes from Protestant Bibles and I think the meaning is clear. 43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” NIV
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. KJV
When a church starts is relavent bc Jesus said the gate of Hell would not Prevail against his church and the Catholic church did not come out of the Jerusalem church it was the Jerusalem church it only moved to Rome after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and replaced the old Covenent with the new. I do not believe Jesus plan was to have 30,000 different denominations that all believe something different based on their interpetation on the Bible. The first 300+ years did not even have the bible so based on some Protestant religious beliefs none of these people would or could be saved. Oh and by the way, that would include the Apostles bc they did not have the Bible either.
Protestant did not come out of the Catholic Church they left it because they wanted to believe what they wanted to believe.

PS. I truely hope people will no longer persecute anyone for their believes hopefully we all learned this lesson but I am not so sure about governments or even a few religions out there. I still see the Catholic Church attacked in many way today throughout the world even by our own Government.

 

[Brother2]

Brother2;5489882:

Thanks for the comment.
So today does not mean today??? I looked up 2 different quotes from Protestant Bibles and I think the meaning is clear. 43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” NIV
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. KJV
When a church starts is relavent bc Jesus said the gate of Hell would not Prevail against his church and the Catholic church did not come out of the Jerusalem church it was the Jerusalem church it only moved to Rome after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and replaced the old Covenent with the new. I do not believe Jesus plan was to have 30,000 different denominations that all believe something different based on their interpetation on the Bible. The first 300+ years did not even have the bible so based on some Protestant religious beliefs none of these people would or could be saved. Oh and by the way, that would include the Apostles bc they did not have the Bible either.
Protestant did not come out of the Catholic Church they left it because they wanted to believe what they wanted to believe.

PS. I truely hope people will no longer persecute anyone for their believes hopefully we all learned this lesson but I am not so sure about governments or even a few religions out there. I still see the Catholic Church attacked in many way today throughout the world even by our own Government.

My point Brother tomb54 was that there were no commas when the Bible was written, the comma was added by Translators and most believed in ‘straight to heaven’ which they inherited from Rome. I gave 2 examples where the comma came after ‘today’ and there are more…and more importantly our Lord did not go back to heaven that day, he rested in the grave over His Sabbath day and came alive again on Sunday (which most Churches observe because of that) so today was not the ‘today’ of that verse!!!

Persecution resulted from Church and State working as ONE, I believe this will happen again as prophecied in Daniel and Revelation…

Surely in the first 300+ years they had the Old Testament which was Scripture?? And the Apostles were alive the first 100years and left their writings??

The Reformers were raised up by God because what had become the Roman Catholic Church had wandered away so far from many of our Lords teachings it need reformed, however refusing to be reformed the Roman Church excommunicated the Reformers…

I love that nickname of yours Brother tomb54, but I’m a brother2…Ha.

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

 

[Tomb54]

Tomb54;5489989:

My point Brother tomb54 was that there were no commas when the Bible was written, the comma was added by Translators and most believed in ‘straight to heaven’ which they inherited from Rome. I gave 2 examples where the comma came after ‘today’ and there are more…and more importantly our Lord did not go back to heaven that day, he rested in the grave over His Sabbath day and came alive again on Sunday (which most Churches observe because of that) so today was not the ‘today’ of that verse!!!

Persecution resulted from Church and State working as ONE, I believe this will happen again as prophecied in Daniel and Revelation…

Surely in the first 300+ years they had the Old Testament which was Scripture?? And the Apostles were alive the first 100years and left their writings??

The Reformers were raised up by God because what had become the Roman Catholic Church had wandered away so far from many of our Lords teachings it need reformed, however refusing to be reformed the Roman Church excommunicated the Reformers

…

I love that nickname of yours Brother tomb54, but I’m a brother2…Ha.

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

You are right there were no commas but in your statement you brought up a good point. Mine quote was from 2 Protestant Bibles and based on your interpetation both are wrong so who decide what interpetation is right?? Each and every person that reads Scripture or should it be based on Oral tradition which was what the Bible was based on???
If you state that the Church wandered away and Jesus needed to start another one then you are calling him a lier for he said "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it? he did not say churches for if the church teachings were wrong then the church was overcome and the statement is not true. Since Jesus can not tell a lie then the church while being wrong in some areas still had the basic truths of the church and was not wrong in those areas. Luther wanted the church to reform over night and it just can’t do that but their were people within the catholic church also already trying to stop the selling of indulgence. In time this would have been corrected like most thing within the church. The Devil really tries to attack the catholic church time and time again both from with out and from within.
But what about the time between 100 AD and 405 AD (I think) when the NT was finalize how did they know which writings were to be trusted if they did not listen to the church. (I was kinda quoting some Protestant faith that say you must only believe what is in the Bible. The people inbetween 100 and 405 had to believe the Oral traditions of the Catholic Church (the part the reformer decide to throw out)

 

[Bill_Pick]

all the books of the NT are tradition. and we did not have prostestant on this earth until late 1800 the word was not hear

 

[guanophore]

So today does not mean today???

Yes. It means “I am telling you on this day…you will be with me”. He is right, there was no punctuation in the original.

When a church starts is relavent bc Jesus said the gate of Hell would not Prevail against his church and the Catholic church did not come out of the Jerusalem church it was the Jerusalem church it only moved to Rome after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and replaced the old Covenent with the new.

Well, the Church founded by Christ began in Jerusalem, and first it spread East to Syria. It is not a matter of “moving” but of spreading. The Church spread in all directions. It did not “relocate” to Rome.

The Romans did not replace the Old Covenant with the new, and the spread of the Church did not cause the destruction of Jerusalem.

I do not believe Jesus plan was to have 30,000 different denominations that all believe something different based on their interpetation on the Bible. The first 300+ years did not even have the bible so based on some Protestant religious beliefs none of these people would or could be saved.

I agree with you there.

Oh and by the way, that would include the Apostles bc they did not have the Bible either. Protestant did not come out of the Catholic Church they left it because they wanted to believe what they wanted to believe.

Both things are true. Most of their theology they either kept from the Catholic Church, or replaced it with anti-Catholic. They all defined themselves by what they did not accept of Catholicism.

 

[Zooey]

With Respect tomb54 (lovely nickname by the way), the thief on the cross did not go to heaven that day, he also is asleep in the grave…there was no punctuation in those days? ‘I say unto you today, you will be with Me in paradise’, of course he will at the ressurection!!

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

Now look, I have heard this particular argument before. It made no sense the first time, and it makes no sense now.
What do you say when you talk to people? Do you say, “I say to you three weeks from next Friday”? Or “I say to you 14 years ago come October 31st”?
No!! You don’t have to tell people when it is that you are speaking to them, because they are right there, listening to you at the time!!
Much less is Our Lord going to waste time and energy, talking to a dying man, when He is also suffering & dying Himself, “Look, I am talking to you this afternoon; I did not speak to you last Thursday, but right now, at 1:27 PM Mountain Standard Time, and”…
I’m sorry, but that is just nonsense. It is a way of slipping out of answering the real question, and addressing the real subject. I’m sorry, but, with all due respect, that’s just plain :whacky::whacky:goofy!!! No one talks like that, no one.:nope::nope::nope:

 

[Wesley7]

Catholics pray the rosary and recite prayers to Virgin Mary. Also, Catholics pray to the saints. Another thing, catholics also use statues of the saints, Virgin Mary, and of Jesus. But dosent’ this contradict what the bible says? Instead of praying to Mary and the saints for help, why not just pray to God? And why have false idols?

Theoretically, I don’t think you actually pray to any of the saints of the Church but you learn about them by reading their stories and biographies.

 

[Tomb54]

Yes. It means “I am telling you on this day…you will be with me”. He is right, there was no punctuation in the original.

Well, the Church founded by Christ began in Jerusalem, and first it spread East to Syria. It is not a matter of “moving” but of spreading. The Church spread in all directions. It did not “relocate” to Rome.

The Romans did not replace the Old Covenant with the new, and the spread of the Church did not cause the destruction of Jerusalem.

I agree with you there.

Both things are true. Most of their theology they either kept from the Catholic Church, or replaced it with anti-Catholic. They all defined themselves by what they did not accept of Catholicism.

Thanks for staightening out some of my thinking and some of my comments which I did not mean to imply like the Church caused the destruction of Jerusalem bc I did not mean that or that the new replaced the old but it did full filled it. Also the move thing you are more correct than my comment but part of what I was trying to get across was that if it was so hard to interpet what was said, then who has the knowledge to interpet the Bible who does not know the whole traditions of the early church and what they meant. If people in American interpet the Bible based on their understanding as it is written they then are interpeting an interpetation which usually takes you further from the truth. How many people really know Hebrew and ancient Greek or even know the History of the time intimitely enought to know what the early christian automaticly understood based on the writing of the Apostles and the OT. I know my knowledge is only from reading other who have explained some of the meaning of the Bible and history. I read alot from Dr Hahn and Fr Coripi as well as others that I can trust but I have a long way to go to really understand the Bible as the Catholic Church teaches it and I am a cradle Catholic. I just wish to point out that it is not all that easy to know what the Bible says based on our Modern worlds interpetation of it and us using our experience in life to explain theirs and what they meant. I do need people like you to straighten me out at time so Thanks.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Check my post #244.

There and in other posts on this thread the distinction has been clearly made that the type of “prayer” to Mary and the saints is simply requests for intercession. It is not prayer in the sense that we all use to go to God.
Continually repeating, after continually being corrected, that Catholics pray to Mary in a way that is reserved for our Lord, starts to appear uncharitable.

Jon

Thank you again Jon, for another charitable, well informed, intelligent response. (Are you sure you are not Catholic ?

So much mis-information out there. So many mis-informed people.
How many times does it need to be repeated ?
Open your ears and hearts people !
Catholics are just ASKING Mary and the saints to pray for us,
JUST LIKE YOU DO WHEN YOU ASK FOR ANOTHER’S PRAYERS OR OFFER TO PRAY FOR ANOTHER !!!
End of story. Can we move on now ?

+Peace to All,
Bob

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The truth is still the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it. Fulton Sheen

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[Bob4BVM]

For the exact same reason that you or I or anyone would ask our fellow Christians to pray for us or a sick loved-one. It is a request for intercession. When I pray for my niece who has Crones, it is intercessory prayer. I am asking Christ to intercede with her.

Now I’m not convinced that those in heaven can hear our individual requestsd for intercession, though scripture says that those who are in heaven (Church Triumphant) pray for us the Church Militant in a general sense. But Catholics believe they can, and they ask them to pray to God for them or their loved ones. That is all they are doing.

Jon

Very good Jon.

As for those in Heaven being able to hear us:
the early creeds, still in use ( Apostles’, Nicene, …) state that “we believe in the communion of saints, the forgivenes of sins, the resurrection…”
The RCC takes the creed verbatum, we really do believe in an actual communion of saints.
That means that the blessed souls in Heaven are in actual communion with us on earth, that is, we are ONE united body of believers, all part of one church, each an essential and very real part of the one Body of Christ.
During the celebration of the Holy Mass, Christ comes to us, accompanied by His whole glorious Heavenly court, the angels and saints among them. Of course it goes without saying that the Blessed Virgin is present as well.

Since Christ can only be present ‘as He is in Heaven’, the whole court is there. Christ, Holy Spirit, & the Father, with their whole court.

When we receive communion, we are IN communion with all beings present. That is the great miracle of the Mass. That is how we know the saints can hear us-they are there !

My own faith experience leads me to believe that this “communion of saints” may be much closer to us than we think, even outside of the Mass… but that is a whole other story .

+Peace,
Bob

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Our duty as Christians is to always seek the Truth, and when we find it, to live by it.

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[Robert_in_SD]

My own faith experience leads me to believe that this “communion of saints” may be much closer to us than we think, even outside of the Mass… but that is a whole other story.

I’d love to hear that story some day Bob.

Peace,
Robert

 

[JonNC]

=Bob4BVM;5498925]Thank you again Jon, for another charitable, well informed, intelligent response. (Are you sure you are not Catholic ?

Many Lutherans who think the way I do consider ourselves “evangelical Catholic”, or
“Catholics of the Augsburg Confession”. So, yes, I consider myself Catholic, just not (yet) in communion with Rome.

So much mis-information out there. So many mis-informed people.
How many times does it need to be repeated ?
Open your ears and hearts people !
Catholics are just ASKING Mary and the saints to pray for us,
JUST LIKE YOU DO WHEN YOU ASK FOR ANOTHER’S PRAYERS OR OFFER TO PRAY FOR ANOTHER !!!
End of story. Can we move on now ?

Sadly, probably not.

Thanks for your kind words.
Jon

 

[Bob4BVM]

I’d love to hear that story some day Bob.

Peace,
Robert

Check your Private Messages , Robert.
Bob

 

[Bob4BVM]

Many Lutherans who think the way I do consider ourselves “evangelical Catholic”, or
“Catholics of the Augsburg Confession”. So, yes, I consider myself Catholic, just not (yet) in communion with Rome.

Jon, there is something I’d like to share with you, can we attach files to a Private Message ?
+Peace,
Bob

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“There are not a hundred people who hate the Catholic church, but there are millions who hate what they think the Catholic church to be” --Bishop Fulton Sheen

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[Bob4BVM]

“Yes there some Saints in heaven, but I don’t see in the Bible where we can ask the ‘dead’ Saints to pray for us, the Scriptures advise praying for the Saints who were alive and being persecuted etc.”

“Sufficient to say, Roman Catholics need to beware of Spiritualism, talking to the dead,
next thing Mary will be making an appearance, or has she already?? Moving statues and visions of Mary…dangerous stuff my Brothers and Sisters…”
“Did you know that Lucifer the fallen archangel, Satan the father of lies, Devil the arch deceiver can impersonate dead people??? Happens regularly in Spiritualism, seances, New Age believers…Oh yes, beware my Brothers and Sisters!! Bible says Satan will appear as an angel of light, even impersonate our Lord Jesus at the last…so Mary would be no problem for him!!”

Hello Brother2:
Saw your old post come up here, felt compelled to comment on it:
Michael, do really believe that those in Heaven are any less alive than we are here ???
And what limits would you like to put on what they may or may not be able to do, if it is by God’s grace and desire ?

You speak of that which you do not know, Michael.
If the historic apparitions of Mary are the work of satan, they are his biggest screw-up ever ! The countless true conversions to Christ resulting from these are their own witness. They are the fruits of the Grace which her Son has allowed her to bring to us.

+Peace,
Bob

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“There are not a hundred people who hate the Catholic church, but there are millions who hate what they think the Catholic church to be” --Bishop Fulton Sheen

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[peary]

Catholics pray the rosary and recite prayers to Virgin Mary. Also, Catholics pray to the saints. Another thing, catholics also use statues of the saints, Virgin Mary, and of Jesus. But dosent’ this contradict what the bible says? Instead of praying to Mary and the saints for help, why not just pray to God? And why have false idols?

1. Catholics pray the Rosary. OK, DEREK - tell me what the Rosary IS. Do you even know??
2. Catholics recite prayers to Virgin Mary. OK, DEREK - do you even know of what reciting prayers mean?
3. Catholics pray to the saints. OK, DEREK - do you even know what the Communion of Saints IS?
4. Catholics use statues of the saints, Virgin Mary, and Jesus. OK, DEREK - how do Catholics use statues of the saints, Virgin Mary, and Jesus?
5. This contradicts what the Bible says. OK, DEREK - please explain to me why.
6. Why not just pray to God? OK, DEREK - please explain how Catholics do not pray to God.
7. Why have ,false idols? OK, DEREK - where do Catholics have false idols? False idols mean false gods. When and where and how do Catholics worship false gods?

Do you ever think through the questions you ask, or is it just your age?

 

[peary]

I have a question along these lines…How does a saint become a saint? Do they have to do something extraordinary or are they just regular people?

Sainthood actually begins with common, ordinary people (the faithful). It does not begin with the Church hierarchy. If people believe that an individual has been blessed with extraordinary Graces from God, they can petition the bishop of the diocese in which that individual lived. If the bishop finds the petition worthy, he will then open the process on the diocesan level, gathering the writings of the deceased, letters, interviews with those who were blessed by the person’s life, etc. Sometimes this takes a long time, even centuries! It takes this long in order to validate the intercession of God through that individual. The bishop will then inform the Vatican and forward all the information to Rome. Then, the process begins all over again. Once the extraordinary sanctity of the person is recognized by one miracle, he or she is declared “Blessed” which means that the faithful may begin veneration of that individual.

Only after one more miracle will the pope canonize the saint (this includes martyrs as well). The title of ‘saint’ tells us that the person lived a holy life, is in heaven, and is to be honored by the universal Church. Canonization does not “make” a person a saint; it recognizes what God has already done. Though canonization is infallible and irrevocable, it takes a long time and a lot of effort. So while every person who is canonized is a saint, not every holy person has been canonized. You have probably known many “saints” in your life, and you are called by God to be one yourself.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Sainthood actually begins with common, ordinary people (the faithful). It does not begin with the Church hierarchy. If people believe that an individual has been blessed with extraordinary Graces from God, they can petition the bishop of the diocese in which that individual lived. If the bishop finds the petition worthy, he will then open the process on the diocesan level, gathering the writings of the deceased, letters, interviews with those who were blessed by the person’s life, etc. Sometimes this takes a long time, even centuries! It takes this long in order to validate the intercession of God through that individual. The bishop will then inform the Vatican and forward all the information to Rome. Then, the process begins all over again. Once the extraordinary sanctity of the person is recognized by one miracle, he or she is declared “Blessed” which means that the faithful may begin veneration of that individual.

Only after one more miracle will the pope canonize the saint (this includes martyrs as well). The title of ‘saint’ tells us that the person lived a holy life, is in heaven, and is to be honored by the universal Church. Canonization does not “make” a person a saint; it recognizes what God has already done. Though canonization is infallible and irrevocable, it takes a long time and a lot of effort. So while every person who is canonized is a saint, not every holy person has been canonized. You have probably known many “saints” in your life, and you are called by God to be one yourself.

Well put Peary !
Bob

 

[Brother2]

Now look, I have heard this particular argument before. It made no sense the first time, and it makes no sense now.
What do you say when you talk to people? Do you say, “I say to you three weeks from next Friday”? Or “I say to you 14 years ago come October 31st”?
No!! You don’t have to tell people when it is that you are speaking to them, because they are right there, listening to you at the time!!
Much less is Our Lord going to waste time and energy, talking to a dying man, when He is also suffering & dying Himself, “Look, I am talking to you this afternoon; I did not speak to you last Thursday, but right now, at 1:27 PM Mountain Standard Time, and”…
I’m sorry, but that is just nonsense. It is a way of slipping out of answering the real question, and addressing the real subject. I’m sorry, but, with all due respect, that’s just plain :whacky::whacky:goofy!!! No one talks like that, no one.:nope::nope::nope:

Wow I haven’t been on this blog for quite a while…wonderful to see me still quoted after all this time brother…must have left a Heavy Impression on you brother ha ha…

Yeah ok I say unto you today…21.44pm United Kingdom time…that you will be with me in the kingdom…trouble is we are both very much alive and we cannot predict when that will be???

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

 

[Brother2]

Brother2;5486889:

“Yes there some Saints in heaven, but I don’t see in the Bible where we can ask the ‘dead’ Saints to pray for us, the Scriptures advise praying for the Saints who were alive and being persecuted etc.”

“Sufficient to say, Roman Catholics need to beware of Spiritualism, talking to the dead,
next thing Mary will be making an appearance, or has she already?? Moving statues and visions of Mary…dangerous stuff my Brothers and Sisters…”
“Did you know that Lucifer the fallen archangel, Satan the father of lies, Devil the arch deceiver can impersonate dead people??? Happens regularly in Spiritualism, seances, New Age believers…Oh yes, beware my Brothers and Sisters!! Bible says Satan will appear as an angel of light, even impersonate our Lord Jesus at the last…so Mary would be no problem for him!!”

Hello Brother2:
Saw your old post come up here, felt compelled to comment on it:
Michael, do really believe that those in Heaven are any less alive than we are here ???
And what limits would you like to put on what they may or may not be able to do, if it is by God’s grace and desire ?

You speak of that which you do not know, Michael.
If the historic apparitions of Mary are the work of satan, they are his biggest screw-up ever ! The countless true conversions to Christ resulting from these are their own witness. They are the fruits of the Grace which her Son has allowed her to bring to us.

+Peace,
Bob

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“There are not a hundred people who hate the Catholic church, but there are millions who hate what they think the Catholic church to be” --Bishop Fulton Sheen

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Firstly Bob I am not amongst the hundreds or the millions who hate the Catholic Church…countless conversions to Christ? I praise God for all true conversions to Christ and people can convert to our Lord in the Roman Church as well as the Protestant churches…however…of course I have to qualify and mean no ill will to you or any Catholic when I qualify…so much of Lucifer the father of lies and so much impersonation in the Church of Rome that he gets very close access to these new converts…I am being as polite as poss brother…

The human beings in heaven are probably more alive that what we are…Enoch, Elijah, Moses…all those who arose with Jesus at his ressurection…these people are more alive than we are certainly…BUT most people are simply DEAD…and the occult can teach us here…and the father of the occult is the devil the arch deciever…beware Bob you are decieved…and I say that as a brother in Christ and a friend on this forum…I love you and warn you…maybe one day you will learn the Truth…

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.