Preemption for All!

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jlw:
Probable cause???

This is a freaking WAR ZONE!!! This is not an episode of Perry Mason!!!

Yikes!!
Which is to say you think it is okay for the United States to go on a world-wide witch hunt, if it makes us feel safer? According to Mr. Bush, after all, the whole world is a war zone. Surely, you do still want to have some limits?
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
So, with that being said, if you had an opportunity to vote and did not, did you not also excuse yourself from the right to whine about the outcome.
There is a right to whine, now? Talk about a sense of entitlement!

You know, I’ve read elsewhere on these forums that the Democrats should quit whining, too… Kerry lost, fair and square, quit whining. What, you have to win the White House and both houses of Congress in order to whine?

Maybe whining ought to go out when one gains the faculty of speech.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
According to Mr. Bush, after all, the whole world is a war zone.
Really? You have a valid source/link to that statement?
 
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BLB_Oregon:
There is a right to whine, now? Talk about a sense of entitlement!

You know, I’ve read elsewhere on these forums that the Democrats should quit whining, too… Kerry lost, fair and square, quit whining. What, you have to win the White House and both houses of Congress in order to whine?

Maybe whining ought to go out when one gains the faculty of speech.
 
If you don’t even vote, you didn’t try to participate in changing anything. And although,peacemonger and I differ on alot of things and we go back and forth I have no bad feelings for him at all I try to find common ground with everyone. If you would read the whole post you would understand the whole picture. And talking about a sense of entitlement…Peacemonger and I have a mutual respect for each other and can debate in one post and pray for someone in the next.God Bless
 
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Peacemonger:
Take a chill pill CaptSC! Take a walk around the block or something! This forum is so pro war and right wing that is NEEDS me to try and balance it out. Hopefully someone will see the truth that I present and not get so huffy.
It’s probably that way because it’s the truth of the matter. You won’t balance it out. It is not possible.

We are already in a war against terrorism for three years. What would we be pre-empting? Would stopping a terrorist attack be considered a pre-empt?

If we have knowledge that a terrorist is going to act we should do something about it? Isn’t that what all the libs have been condemning the government for? Not acting? You guys drive me nuts! :banghead:
 
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thestickman:
Really? You have a valid source/link to that statement?
If you’re waging the war on terror all over the world, that kind of makes the whole world a war-on-terror war zone. And hey, outside of the US, there’s often no Bill of Rights to slow us down. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for a fight on terror, and I’m all for world-wide cooperation on that front. I’m just not for knocking down doors without due reason to do so. We need to have respect for the right of innocent people to live in peace and without fear of a midnight knock on the door courtesy of the US government. Our bill of rights, after all, rest on the premise that these are human rights, not on the idea that Americans are some particularly priveleged people. Really–what Christian could go for a premise like that?

These are excerpts are from the White House website:
whitehouse.gov/infocus/achievement/chap1.html
“President Bush launched a global effort to defeat terrorism and to protect and defend America. During his term in office, the President has led a steady and systematic campaign against global terrorists and their allies.”

“We are working closely with intelligence services all over the globe and have enhanced our intelligence capabilities in order to trace dangerous weapons activity.”

p://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/04/20020417-1.htmlhtt
“In the second phase of the war on terror, our military and law enforcement intelligence officers are helping countries around the world in their efforts to crack down on terror within their borders. Global terrorism will be defeated only by global response.”
 
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BLB_Oregon:
I’m just not for knocking down doors without due reason to do so. We need to have respect for the right of innocent people to live in peace and without fear of a midnight knock on the door courtesy of the US government.
Of course!! But if you are living in Falluja, given three weeks to get out, and the Marines are rooting out sicko machete-waving suicide bombers, you may not get your “4th ammedment rights”. Sorry.

As far as acting on intellegence, rest assured, the proper authorities go through and document the legal steps before conducting “suprise raids” on suspected terrorists.

The war on terror doesn’t exclude ordinary law enforcement. On the contrary.

It just doesn’t exclude military action anymore.
 
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jlw:
Of course!! But if you are living in Falluja, given three weeks to get out, and the Marines are rooting out sicko machete-waving suicide bombers, you may not get your “4th ammedment rights”. Sorry.
There are trade-offs that have to be made when a military engagement is under way, because of the lives that are at stake and the inescapable time limitations, yes.

I have to wonder if we were invaded, if our entire region was a war zone with both rampant crime and unpredictable bombings in civilian centers… if we were given three weeks to get out of our homes, where would we go? What dark times these are for the innocents in Iraq!
 
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BLB_Oregon:
There are trade-offs that have to be made when a military engagement is under way, because of the lives that are at stake and the inescapable time limitations, yes.

I have to wonder if we were invaded, if our entire region was a war zone with both rampant crime and unpredictable bombings in civilian centers… if we were given three weeks to get out of our homes, where would we go? What dark times these are for the innocents in Iraq!
We were infiltrated, bombed, were not given any warning and 3,000 civilians died.

http://www.september11news.com/111wtcreutersitaly.jpg

http://www.september11news.com/NYCSmokeCollapse2.gif
 
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gilliam:
We were infiltrated, bombed, were not given any warning and 3,000 civilians died.
So we should do the same to others? As I said: fighting terrorists, yes. Using 9/11 as an excuse to run roughshod over innocents world wide? Let’s hope not.

Think for a minute about how we’ve reacted to the Oklahoma City bombing. These were home-grown terrorists, and there are networks of them right here at home even today. They would love to overthrow the government. Of course we made changes to make ourselves safer. Of course we are extra-vigilant in pursuing any who might do likewise. But we didn’t throw the Bill of Rights out the window in the process. That’s all I’m saying.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
So we should do the same to others? As I said: fighting terrorists, yes. Using 9/11 as an excuse to run roughshod over innocents world wide? Let’s hope not.

Think for a minute about how we’ve reacted to the Oklahoma City bombing. These were home-grown terrorists, and there are networks of them right here at home even today. They would love to overthrow the government. Of course we made changes to make ourselves safer. Of course we are extra-vigilant in pursuing any who might do likewise. But we didn’t throw the Bill of Rights out the window in the process. That’s all I’m saying.
  1. Running roughshod?? Please. Not the case.
  2. Oklahoma City: Terry Nichols had some middle-eastern connections, just so you know. Swept under the rug in an election year.
  3. Bill of Rights: Again, doesn’t apply in the middle of a military kill-or-be-killed operation.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
So we should do the same to others? .
We didn’t. In Fallugah, we gave the civilians plenty of warning, and we rooted out the terrorists who were making their city into a bomb factory and a tyranny.

But then, you know that.
 
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buffalo:
It’s probably that way because it’s the truth of the matter. You won’t balance it out. It is not possible.

We are already in a war against terrorism for three years. What would we be pre-empting? Would stopping a terrorist attack be considered a pre-empt?

If we have knowledge that a terrorist is going to act we should do something about it? Isn’t that what all the libs have been condemning the government for? Not acting? You guys drive me nuts! :banghead:
Trying to make sense of what you just wrote is driving me nuts! Wanna try again?
 
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jlw:
When it come to Americas’ foreign policy, I would agree with you.

In all charity, I just have a fundemental problem with that

What do you have a problem with? I believe the root cause of 9-11 was our foreign policy towards the middle east over the last several decades. This isn’t being “emotional” or “anti-American” but being truthful. Many foreign policy experts say the same thing.

Especially when those grounds are nothing more than shifting
sand.

Saddam did not comply. That it, that’s all, that’s the line in the sand. Period.

If you think he complied, was above board, as was NOT a friend or potential friend to terrorists in a post-9/11 world, then what can I say??

Using the logic that because Saddam violated UN treaties/santions then we were justified in our invasion, then would the UN be justified in building a coalition and invading Israel since they too have been in violation of UN treaties/santions?

Is that so bad?

Liberalism is. It is based on an idea that a utopia can be achieved. It can’t. History has proved that. Charity is not a liberal idea. But governmentally forced “charity” is.

So what should the role of the government be?

You’re wrong here. I’ve read dozens of books, and read hundreds of articles from the left, right, and in between. But I read these books and articles not with the purpose of reconfirming my position, but simply to know the **truth. **And this research, along with guidance from the Church has led me to my anti-war stance.

Being anti-war is your stance. War can bring horrible pain and suffering, but it also can bring justice and freedom. You are thowing out the baby with the bathwater.

I am no pacifist…I believe the application of force is sometimes justified. I just believe that our invasion in Iraq was a huge mistake. How can anyone, after all that we learned since the invasion, after all that we see happening over there, feel that this was a smart move?

When it come to the war in Iraq, I am certain of my stance. If this makes me self-righteous…so be it. BTW no ome has given me any “facts” that justify Americas’ war in Iraq.

Puleeeeeeeeese! :rolleyes:

When you say I’m anti-soldier, what do you mean? I want them to die? I don’t care about them? I believe they are evil?

When your criticism is almost WORD FOR WORD the same as that of the middle eastern propagandists supporting the terrorists, it is NOT supportive of our soldiers. It just isn’t.

:confused:
 
Reason for 9/11: Your view is like a victim of rape deciding she deserved it because she hasn’t been a good girl to every boyfreind in her life.

Compliance: Your analogy doesn hold water.

Did Isreal sign a peace treaty after a war she lost?? IRAQ did.

Isreal gets “comdemnations” from anti-semitic blocks of countries withing the UN. But it has NEVER recieved 17 UN SECURITY COUNCIL resolutions demanding anything??? Big difference. IRAQ has!

Government: less is more. Don’t tell me what I can do or not do religiously. Stay out of my pocket. Safety: Defend us from enemies foreign and domestic. Help the needy, not a group based on race or gender. Protect life, Protect family. These way are not modern liberal ways.

Iraq War: You have NO perspective. We are too close to the action to have ANY perspective. History will tell us the story. You suspect we will lose. I suspect we will win. The Iraqi people will win. The middle east will see better days because of our victories in Afganistan and Iraq.

Support: Again, When your criticism is almost WORD FOR WORD the same as that of the middle eastern propagandists supporting the terrorists, it is NOT supportive of our soldiers. It just isn’t. If you don’t see that this is the case, there are 10 people on this board who could vouch for that.
 
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jlw:
Reason for 9/11: Your view is like a victim of rape deciding she deserved it because she hasn’t been a good girl to every boyfreind in her life.

Compliance: Your analogy doesn hold water.
You reap what you sow. And Americas’s one-sided foreign policy in the Middle East, no matter how good the intentions, has sown hatred across the Middle East. I’m not justifying what the terrorist did, but to prevent it from happening again, I believe we have to understand their motives.

I have not the energy to reply to the rest of your spin.
 
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Peacemonger:
You reap what you sow. And Americas’s one-sided foreign policy in the Middle East, no matter how good the intentions, has sown hatred across the Middle East. I’m not justifying what the terrorist did, but to prevent it from happening again, I believe we have to understand their motives.

I have not the energy to reply to the rest of your spin.
a woman who is raped reaps what she sows??

Being a friend to Isreal, a democracy in a sea of tyranical anti-semites?? That justifies terrorism??

I understand their motives:
  1. Anti-semitism
  2. better to blame another government other than their own
  3. US domestic liberalism scares the freaking **** out of them
  4. Allah says “Virgins, virgins, virgins, baby!!”
Peace, you spin. You spin all the time. My views, you may not agree with, and that’s ok. But the facts about Saddam??? They stand on their own. NO spin.
 
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Peacemonger:
You reap what you sow. And Americas’s one-sided foreign policy in the Middle East, no matter how good the intentions, has sown hatred across the Middle East. I’m not justifying what the terrorist did, but to prevent it from happening again, I believe we have to understand their motives.

I have not the energy to reply to the rest of your spin.
Hi PM,
Do you “understand” the motives of a serial murderer? Can you really get inside his/her head? Can you truly share in that madness? This is the quandry most of us face when we see pictures like those posted above. I refuse to try and “understand” that. I believe that war…any war…is hideous by its very nature, but so are the acts that brought about our response. All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to do NOTHING (someone very clever…not me…said that).
 
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