"Pride Month" and Where to Turn: Limits of Cultural Engagement

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catholic03 said:
Us Christians pay money to attend this school. We cannot and should not be allowed to shove our beliefs down other’s throats. Why are the practising homosexuals able to do so?

If I told someone at school that they suffered from an intrinsically disordered moral evil and must remain celibate, then I would be labeled bigoted, homophobic and other things. This is not tolerance. This is forced conversion to their beliefs.
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I’d be willing to bet they’re not shoving their beliefs down your throat.

Most gays do not have a problem with you or other Catholics or conservative Christians having their beliefs and practicing their beliefs. Most gays are okay with you believing that they’re “sinners” and you believing that God intended marriage as between a man and a woman.

You know, most gays really expect very little from us. They’re not out to change your beliefs; they just want to live their lives in peace without being harassed, and they don’t want to be fired from their jobs or kicked out of their apartments.
 
It’s happening in schools. Out and proud books and gay romance as young as kindergarten. When a father complained he was told it was ‘not a parental notification issue.’
 
I was in the waiting room at a hospital and an out athlete appeared on CNN and told everyone watching to ‘stop being homophobic.’ The 80 year old lady who was next to me in a wheelchair is homophobic? 5 year old Billy is homophobic? One very good example of propaganda.
 
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Wozza said:
Whether you acted on your attractions or not, how would you feel about them being described as disordered?
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The Catechism does not say that people with same sex attraction are “disordered.” If Catholics or any Christians say that, they are not quoting the Catechism correctly.

The Catechism says" “Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”

I won’t lie–like many others who are Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, I sometimes wish that the Lord had created us to be more “fluid” in our sexuality, so that people who have sexual attractions other than male/female could be perfectly fine and acceptable and natural and ordered and all the rest. One of my pals, a music teacher, and I go out at least once a fortnight, and he’s so delightful and I hear him talk about those men that he loves, and I feel for him–it’s so hard to be lonely, and when he finds someone, he’s so happy.

But…I’m not God, and I don’t get to make the rules.

I happen to trust the Church that Jesus established because I trust Jesus. If I lose trust in Jesus, I have lost everything and I have no hope in this world or the next.

Jesus loves me, this I know.

The teachings of the Church (which are the teachings of the Lord Jesus) sound harsh and horrible to those who have SSA, and to those who are willing to give up their Church for the sake of their LGBTQ friends and relatives. But the teachings are life and hope, while the teachings of this world, no matter how pretty they look and sound, lead to death and despair.

I believe I can love the homosexual and still be disgusted by the homosexual acts, and I confess that I hope I never get to a place where I find these acts acceptable or heaven forbid, beautiful. I am a Child of The King, Jesus, and what He calls sin is sin, no matter how many people have “pride.”

Certainly, a Christian would never deny a fellow sinner (because we are sinners, too!) their basic human rights, and we would never be cruel or try to hurt anyone who believes differently than us.

But we will not deny our Lord, even if it appears that we are “demeaning” others. We aren’t–we are speaking the truth in love.
 
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Very right, Peeps. The church calls nobody ‘intrinsically disordered’. Only the act. This is the issue.

Love the sinner, hate the sin!
 
I’m not sure if we’re talking past each other, or if you’re presenting a straw man argument.
catholic03 said:
I respect, honour and admire celibate sufferers of same sex attraction. I would happily be friends with and encourage such a person. Such a person may be just as faithful a Catholic as any other. I would always serve them a cake.
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I assume this would apply even if they slip up and repent, no? Or even if they slipped up, but haven’t yet repented?
catholic03 said:
I would not bake a cake that has two men on the top. This is not fair on me. I would be compromising my beliefs, which I will not do.
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I assume you mean a wedding cake. In that case, your view makes sense to me.
catholic03 said:
Yes, I would bake a cake for a fornicating heterosexual couple. This is because while they commit disordered acts, they still are natural insofar as they are between a man and a woman.
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But this puzzles me. Do you mean an ordinary cake or a wedding cake? I don’t understand how any Christian could refuse to serve a gay couple an ordinary cake, based on Christian beliefs. It makes more sense to stone people for sodomy (though of course, I think that’s waaaaay beyond the pale) than to refuse serving them cake that they paid for. In the latter case, the refusal has nothing to do with the sinful activity. It’s like saying, “Hey, that’s a married couple who uses contraception! Let’s refuse to let them in our restaurant.” It’s something, but it’s not Christian.
 
catholic03 said:
Yes, I would bake a cake for a fornicating heterosexual couple. This is because while they commit disordered acts, they still are natural insofar as they are between a man and a woman.
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That doesn’t make sense, sin is still terrible regardless of whether it is natural or not.
 
A wedding cake is used for celebratory purposes.I think you ought to have said that the marriage of a fornicating couple isn’t a sin as opposed to it being better than that of two people of the same gender.
 
Regardless, I hope I did clear up the confusion. I will be happy to explain again. I have a tendency to rant at length with straw man arguments.

God Bless.
 
Just wanted to clarify! 🙂

I’ve run into people online who would defend their right not to serve gay people any food whatsoever. 😐
 
catholic03 said:
We know that, for whatever reasons, homosexuals often have a certain type of personality, whether celibate or not.
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That’s arrant nonsense. You’re relying on your imagination, silly stereotypes and personal prejudices rather than reality. The only personality trait that distinguishes LGBT people from the rest of the general population is their sexual orientation.
 
catholic03 said:
I have a question that relates to this discussion. Today I was talking to a friend of mine about homosexuality. We are both of course against homosexual acts, but an interesting question arose (myself being a vocal opponent of ANY homosexual cause due to its disordered nature). We know that, for whatever reasons, homosexuals often have a certain type of personality, whether celibate or not. For example, they might dress better than others or they might like older/more ornate furnishings, or speak in a certain manner, or even be a bit effeminate. We know that generally, regardless of whether a sufferer of S.S.A. is celibate or not, such characteristics, for whatever reason, in homosexuals are usually because they are homosexual. I argued that it is a sin for a celibate homosexual to retain these aspects of his personality, while my friend said that it was not. I am not talking about pride parades or anything like that, just certain characteristics that a homosexual has in his personality, whether practising or not.

Anyway, this is an interesting question. Do you think that such characteristics are a sin for homosexuals.
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I’ll attempt to answer this, as a Catholic who is non-LGBT.

I mean no disrespect to LGBT in my reply.

I don’t believe it to be a sin.

Some LGBT, particularly gay men, speak a certain way and act a certain way. This (I believe) is learned behavior, picked up from other gay men, similar to how people born and raised in the southern U.S. pick up a “Southern accent” from hearing it from others. It’s not innate to “being gay.”
 
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catholic03 said:
I have a question that relates to this discussion. Today I was talking to a friend of mine about homosexuality. We are both of course against homosexual acts, but an interesting question arose (myself being a vocal opponent of ANY homosexual cause due to its disordered nature). We know that, for whatever reasons, homosexuals often have a certain type of personality, whether celibate or not. For example, they might dress better than others or they might like older/more ornate furnishings, or speak in a certain manner, or even be a bit effeminate.
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That rings a bell with me. Because I’ve noticed that men who tend to have sex just for the sake of it are into 4 wheel drives, rock and roll, drinking and sports. They talk kinds gruff as well.

Are these aspects of their personality sins? And I dress well, have old furniture but I like drinking and football. Maybe I’m bisexual.
 
catholic03 said:
It really annoys me when ‘Catholics’ and others who have minds poisoned by the homosexual movement think they are fine.
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It really annoys me when other Catholics are so intolerant of gay people that they even want to make the non-sinful things they do, such as dressing nicely and enjoying ornate antiques, into sins because a gay man is doing it.

Edited to add, I am muting this thread now because it has completely jumped the shark as far as I am concerned for both tact, intelligence, and good taste.
 
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catholic03 said:
We know that generally, regardless of whether a sufferer of S.S.A. is celibate or not, such characteristics, for whatever reason, in homosexuals are usually because they are homosexual.
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No, that’s not true. If the trait isn’t sinful it isn’t a problem.
catholic03 said:
Of course, we need to show homosexuals respect
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You need to work on being a tad more tactful when speaking about these things.
 
So you must remember in these moments two things:
1.) when they persecute you they persecuted Christ 1st.
2.) imagine Jesus’ agony in the Garden up through His crucification. He watched the same crowds who welcomed Him shout crucify Him. But worse still He watched all of His society reject the truth.
This is a grace from the Lord, this opportunity to be drawn closor to Him and to console the anguish of His heart when he was rejected.
Pray for their conversion and ask for their forgiveness for they know not what they do.
 
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