Priest Arrested For Open Sacramental Wine Container

[Prester_John]

I’ve received the Holy Sacrament under a lot of extraordinary circumstances. The hood of a jeep is one, and in a trench, and once in a plane, to name a few. In all cases I believe the Mass was done reverently and with great care, even in the case of the one on the plane, where everyone feared we might actually perish from the landing. Holy Mother church grants great latitude in extreme conditions, blessed be. I think it is terrible that something like this could go on in what is supposed to be an enlightened democracy, but I disagree that the priest was in any way wrong or irresponsible. The Mass is the most powerful weapon in the arsenal of Faith, and to the best of my knowledge can be deployed anywhere, anytime and anyplace. It seems logical to me to say Mass in front of an abortion clinic. With God Himself Absolutely Present in the Sacrament, how can evil withstand?

Just a thought.
Respectfully,

Prester John.

***Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt. ***
When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults…

 

[Franciscum]

Prester John:

I’ve received the Holy Sacrament under a lot of extraordinary circumstances. The hood of a jeep is one, and in a trench, and once in a plane, to name a few. In all cases I believe the Mass was done reverently and with great care, even in the case of the one on the plane, where everyone feared we might actually perish from the landing. Holy Mother church grants great latitude in extreme conditions, blessed be. I think it is terrible that something like this could go on in what is supposed to be an enlightened democracy, but I disagree that the priest was in any way wrong or irresponsible. The Mass is the most powerful weapon in the arsenal of Faith, and to the best of my knowledge can be deployed anywhere, anytime and anyplace. It seems logical to me to say Mass in front of an abortion clinic. With God Himself Absolutely Present in the Sacrament, how can evil withstand?

Except where the Eucharist is likely to be profaned.

Just a thought.
Respectfully,

Prester John.

---

Except where the Eucharist is likely to be profaned.

 

[bob]

Franciscum:

It seems you have little experience with praying in front of abortion clinics. “Slogans, shouting, chanting, and harrassing all around” does not necessarily take place.

But admittedly, you were not there either? How do you know it did not happen?
How about shooting?

Franciscum:

Thanks, but I’ll stick to the GIRM and other official documents, rather than rely on some slides by someone lacking authority and insight.

You have not seen the slides, how do you know it is lacking in authority an insight?
Authority from the Archbishop, with excepts from his book, the GIRM, Vatican documents and fully vetted by the Parish Priest who conducted the RCIA Class and who used the presentation.

We may disagree on issues but it is not polite to attack the person especially when you are not in the position to judge his work.

 

[bob]

Franciscum:

…
Being the expert that you are, you would know the chasable and pall and would not be essential in this sort of situation. His vesting may have consisted only of a small stole – much like military priests wear in combat.

Am I taking advice on altar vestments from someone who cannot even spell “chasuble”?

 

[bob]

Brendan, Prestor John, Deacon 2006,

As I said before, I have no objections to an outdoor mass per se.
War situations are exceptional circumstances. However, I am pretty sure that the chaplains were not running around the battlefield with wine flasks in hand?

And before you declare abortion clinics, car hoods and the back of a trailer exceptional, let me requote Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[108] The celebration of the Eucharist is to be carried out in a sacred place,unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise. In this case the celebration must be in a decent place.” The diocesan Bishop shall be the judge for his diocese concerning this necessity, on a case-by-case basis.
Highlights mine.

Also my other concerns mentioned earlier - “Besides, once consecrated, great care must be taken to avoid spillage of the Precious Blood of Christ. I see a grave danger of spillage here!”

Lastly, I will be very happy to keep my peace and withdraw my objections and all the ifs and buts if you can show me that the priest concerned had approval from his diocean bishop as per RS.

 

[Brendan]

bob:

Brendan, Prestor John, Deacon 2006,

And before you declare abortion clinics, car hoods and the back of a trailer exceptional, let me requote Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[108] The celebration of the Eucharist is to be carried out in a sacred place,unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise. In this case the celebration must be in a decent place.” The diocesan Bishop shall be the judge for his diocese concerning this necessity, on a case-by-case basis.
Highlights mine.

Also my other concerns mentioned earlier - “Besides, once consecrated, great care must be taken to avoid spillage of the Precious Blood of Christ. I see a grave danger of spillage here!”

First of all, I really can’t see think of much more of a decent place for the Body of Christ to be than in a an effort to stop grave abomination.

And why do you say that there would be anymore danger of spillage than any other outdoor Mass?? I fail to see how that follows?

And yes, chaplains do carry flasks of wine with them. It’s a standard part of their Mass kit. And yes, I have personally witnessed them running around with these flasks of wine, heck I’ve watched them jump out of helicopters and wade through streams, holding the Mass kit up over their heads in the same way the troops held up their M-16’s ( I’m in National Guard Major)

And I’ll agree the point become moot if the Ordinary has no objections.

 

[Franciscum]

bob:

Am I taking advice on altar vestments from someone who cannot even spell “chasuble”?

At least I knew the chasable and pall were not mandatory in this situation. Didn’t your “Powerpoint Presentation” cover this, or do you need to upgrade it?

I have no interest in your presentation when I have the *actual *Church references.

 

[bob]

Franciscum:

At least I knew the chasable and pall were not mandatory in this situation. Didn’t your “Powerpoint Presentation” cover this, or do you need to upgrade it?

I have no interest in your presentation when I have the *actual *Church references.

Try teaching RCIA with the entire library of church documents. Apparently you have absolutely no idea where and how to begin.

That is the whole problem with you.
You refuse to view evidience when offered but condemn them instead.

You attack a person when you cannot defend your views.

And you still cannot spell chasuble.

Chasable is when a blonde makes eyes at you and the chase begins…

 

[bob]

Brendan:

…And why do you say that there would be anymore danger of spillage than any other outdoor Mass?? I fail to see how that follows?..

Probably from too many scenes of protests outside abortion clinics from CNN…

Seriously, a planned outdoor mass for Catholics like the Big Valley situation, I assume, is for Catholics only and probably more orderly.

I imagine the outdoor mass at the abortion clinic is probably more spontaneous, without proper facilities setup. Besides there are probably Catholic churches in the neighbourhood that a mass can be celebrated.

Sure, we should continue protesting against abortions. But an organised mass or masses statewide, nationwide or even worldwide would be more effective.

Heck, if need be, an open air mass at a stadium or stadiums!
A hundred thousand people at an open air mass against abortion would give more press coverage and be more dignified than a lone priest running around with a wine flask outside an abortion clinic…

 

[DadAdam]

Bob,

I have to wonder where you are coming from. Your posts are rather sharp and even unkind. The assumptions you make about another poster based on a spelling error are uncharitable, and your tone tends to predispose me to discount your posts and question your motives.

You seem to have a less than favorable view of those who protest at abortion facilities. You use words like “harassing all around” and “shouting, slogans”. The timbre of your comments is very condescending and negative where abortion protest is concerned. Why?

Do you concern yourself with protection of the dignity of the Mass in this case, or is it the case that you dislike abortion protests. Do you think that your use of sarcasm is some kind of highbrow humor? Have you considered that news reports of abortion protests reflect the ideology of the mainstream press? Do you suppose that the priest in question may truly love the Mass and Jesus Christ and just wants to bring the True Presence as close to the victims of the abortionists as possible.

When the Mass has been celebrated in homes, tombs, and even on the hoods of Jeeps I would suppose that a careful reverent priest makes all the difference.

Just a thought

 

[bob]

DadAdam:

Bob,

I have to wonder where you are coming from. Your posts are rather sharp and even unkind. The assumptions you make about another poster based on a spelling error are uncharitable, and your tone tends to predispose me to discount your posts and question your motives…

You joined the thread rather late.

I would very much appreciate it if you followed through on my posts and that of Fraciscums’ before you make such judgemental comments about me.

I was “attacked” 3 times by Fraciscum making disparaging remarks about my post(#9 Poppycock);
definition: pop·py·cock
n. Senseless talk; nonsense.

my knowledge of the mass (#11 Only you are suggesting he was going to pass around a flask…)

and the quality of my work and accusing me of lacking authority and insight. (#17 Thanks, but I’ll stick to the GIRM and other official documents, rather than rely on some slides by someone lacking authority and insight.);

before I even 'attacked" him.

Then he continued with:
(#27 Didn’t your “Powerpoint Presentation” cover this, or do you need to upgrade it?)

That spelling error “defence” (#24) was mild compared to his remarks.

I even warned him at the beginning of the thread (#10 Firstly, if we disagree on issues, do not call names, use expletives or other rude exclamations.) not to resort to personal attacks but he persisted.

That’s 4 attacks and 1 defence.

So please, follow the posts carefully…I believe an apology from you for your “attack” is in order.

 

[bob]

DadAdam:

Bob,
You seem to have a less than favorable view of those who protest at abortion facilities. You use words like “harassing all around” and “shouting, slogans”. The timbre of your comments is very condescending and negative where abortion protest is
concerned. Why?

Okay. I admit my views of protests has been through the TV tube.
But I have already answered that, you just did not read my post.

DadAdam:

Do you concern yourself with protection of the dignity of the Mass in this case, or is it the case that you dislike abortion protests.?

As I said earler, you obviously have not followed my posts. Please read my posts. I have already answered the above in my very first post #7)

DadAdam:

Do you think that your use of sarcasm is some kind of highbrow humor? Have you considered that news reports of abortion protests reflect the ideology of the mainstream press?

My posts were ridiculed, my ability questioned, and my work condemned by Franciscum 3 times before I retaliated. See details one post before.

DadAdam:

Do you suppose that the priest in question may truly love the Mass and Jesus Christ and just wants to bring the True Presence as close to the victims of the abortionists as possible.

Yes, I emailed the priest in question Rev. Bill Carmody but did not receive a reply from him.

DadAdam:

When the Mass has been celebrated in homes, tombs, and even on the hoods of Jeeps I would suppose that a careful reverent priest makes all the difference.

Just a thought

For the 3rd time on this thread, read Redemptionis Sacramentum.

For the last time read my earlier posts before asking questions that have already been answered.

 

[KittyKat]

I figured as I do know where the Planned Parenthhod location is. There are almost never protestors there. It is in a very quiet location.

And Father Bill would never bully or scare people. They are probably upset about him being there and ruining business for the day. He is the person who did my husband’s confirmation. And if he can make the women feel that there are other ways maybe abortion will not be as big of an issue at least here.

The no alcohol thing is because of the homeless and people that like to party.

Kat

 

[bob]

KittyKat:

I figured as I do know where the Planned Parenthhod location is. There are almost never protestors there. It is in a very quiet location.

And Father Bill would never bully or scare people. They are probably upset about him being there and ruining business for the day. He is the person who did my husband’s confirmation. And if he can make the women feel that there are other ways maybe abortion will not be as big of an issue at least here.

The no alcohol thing is because of the homeless and people that like to party.

Kat

Thank you very much for the info on Fr. Bill and the situation at the clinic. I had tried to contact him for his side of the story via email but have not received a reply.

As I have always maintained on this thread, my concern is on the possible abuse of the mass, especially the Eucharist/Presious Blood.

As I have said on post #25, I will be very satisfied if the good priest had permission from the diocesan bishop. Would you know anything about it?

 

[KittyKat]

I really do not know more than what the article said. In Colorado Springs almost nothing makes it into the news that is good about religion unless Dr. Dobson and Focus on the Family is involved .

I do not know if there was any abuse involved, and I can see that it isn’t a great place to celebrate but people are very sensitive about this topic. I just remember my husband talking about him, and I have heard how understanding he is from people at his old parish, where we attend. I personally feel that it would be better to pray the Rosary or something similar at the location, but I also know that my views are different on this topic any way.

Kat

 

[bob]

KittyKat:

I really do not know more than what the article said. In Colorado Springs almost nothing makes it into the news that is good about religion unless Dr. Dobson and Focus on the Family is involved .

I do not know if there was any abuse involved, and I can see that it isn’t a great place to celebrate but people are very sensitive about this topic. I just remember my husband talking about him, and I have heard how understanding he is from people at his old parish, where we attend. I personally feel that it would be better to pray the Rosary or something similar at the location, but I also know that my views are different on this topic any way.

Kat

The article can be read here.
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41634

Thanks a lot Kat. Your post has been very helpful and has given us an insight to the man (“understanding”)and the location which in your opinion “is not a great place to celebrate” mass.

Your info is as close to the source as we can get so far.

God Bless.

 

[TPJCatholic]

FORT LEWIS, USA, June 10 2004 (CNA) - A Catholic priest is in critical but stable condition after being hurt by a roadside bomb in Iraq.

Fr. Tim Vakoc is believed to be the first military chaplain wounded in the war in the Middle East, a spokesman for Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C., said June 8.

The 44-year-old priest suffered significant injuries to his head and left eye. Doctors have been keeping him in a chemically induced coma to allow his brain to heal.

The Minnesota native was wounded May 30, after having celebrated mass for soldiers in the field. He and his assistant, Spc. Nathan Copas, were returning to the Mosul Airfield when their convoy was attacked. Copas was not wounded.

***Vakoc is the chaplain for the 44th Corps Support Battalion from Fort Lewis since 2002. ***

He was deployed to Iraq in November with the unit, whose mission is to provide logistical support to the Fort Lewis-based units, working across northern Iraq.

---

---

I wonder, just how “sacred” is a battlefield? How sacred it it to say Mass in a location where people are being shot and bombed?

I wonder, just how “sacred” is an abortion battlefield, known as a clinic? How sacred is it to say Mass in a location where unborn babies are being murdered?

The Priest needs to follow the rubrics of the Mass, he needs to obtain permission to say the Mass outside an abortion clinic…yet how can we think it is right to say Mass in a murderous battlefield called war, but not think it is right to say Mass near a murderous battlefield called an abortion clinic?

---

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

FORT LEWIS, USA, June 10 2004 (CNA) - A Catholic priest is in critical but stable condition after being hurt by a roadside bomb in Iraq.

Fr. Tim Vakoc is believed to be the first military chaplain wounded in the war in the Middle East, a spokesman for Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C., said June 8.

The 44-year-old priest suffered significant injuries to his head and left eye. Doctors have been keeping him in a chemically induced coma to allow his brain to heal.

The Minnesota native was wounded May 30, after having celebrated mass for soldiers in the field. He and his assistant, Spc. Nathan Copas, were returning to the Mosul Airfield when their convoy was attacked. Copas was not wounded.

***Vakoc is the chaplain for the 44th Corps Support Battalion from Fort Lewis since 2002. ***

He was deployed to Iraq in November with the unit, whose mission is to provide logistical support to the Fort Lewis-based units, working across northern Iraq.

---

---

I wonder, just how “sacred” is a battlefield? How sacred it it to say Mass in a location where people are being shot and bombed?

I wonder, just how “sacred” is an abortion battlefield, known as a clinic? How sacred is it to say Mass in a location where unborn babies are being murdered?

The Priest needs to follow the rubrics of the Mass, he needs to obtain permission to say the Mass outside an abortion clinic…yet how can we think it is right to say Mass in a murderous battlefield called war, but not think it is right to say Mass near a murderous battlefield called an abortion clinic?

---

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Amen,I am one of “those” people who pray the Rosary in front of the mills.At one of them we have to deal with a santaria priestess who spouts out things that are strait from hell every week almost. That being said the Mass is our strongest weapon against evil. We are fighting a spiritual battle and we need to use spiritual weapons.God Bless this Priest, and God bless his diosese.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Lisa,

I agree. I hope the Priest is following the rubrics and has permission to say the Mass, yet I cannot think of a better weapon then saying the Mass.