priest threatening to deny 7-year old FHC-help!

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Wow this is disappointing!

I hope you are successful in your endeavors! I have to suspect though that the fact that the very Bishop that has jurisdiction over this priest can’t get him to abandon this foolishness - I doubt that a canon lawyer is going to help much as I would suspect that without researching it there is nothing in the canon to govern.

I think that I would take your daughter to the Bishop and let him give her FHC at the Cathedral.

I am sort of surprised that your Bishop is cowering on this issue. This is exactly the sort of thing that turns people away from the Catholic Church and we don’t need to have frivolous things such as this damaging present (parents and family) and future parishoners (children) from having a faith life in the Church. Lord knows we are losing so many that are abandonng their faith in the Church as it is! I don’t mean my use of the word frivolous to be construed as condescending to your situation but I suspect that this may be why the bishop isn’t pushing too hard on this priest.

Once you get your daughter to receive her first Communion I think that I would remind this priest that PRIDE is a capital sin; you might want to remind your priest that Jesus made many specific references in scripture to the Pharisees about the fact that the the Church was made for man - not man for the church–and then I would think seriously about changing to a different parish.

I would also follow up with a letter to: *Cardinal Francis Arinze
Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship
and the Discipline of the Sacraments at the Vatican - *
and express your thoughts on what all had transpired. The details are truly an embarrasment to the church. This is so sad to think that pride and exercising one’s ego is more important than following local acceptable and non-threatening traditions in the Church and potentially damaging the relationship that you and your family have with the Church over something so insignificant.

Your other option is to follow the teaching of our Lord and turn the other cheek but I would still continue to follow through on sending a letter to Card. Arinze at the Vatican with a copy to your bishop and your priest.

God Bless you All and I hope you are successful!
 
Brendan said:
I might be mistaken, but I think she might have misheard the Bishop’s office say that her CANONICAL Rights are being violated.

Which is true.
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My first best guess as to how they could be said to be violated is that it might be argued unnecesary impediment for reception of sacraments may not and should not be put into place.

Understanding, no one has the RIGHT to wear a specific outfit, the argument I would think would be about those who put impediments in place over clothing…

How many are familiar with the term “Pyrrhic victory”?

This could all too easily spiral (or has it already?) into a days-long debate so utterly focused on apparel and rites, that the EVENT surrounded in debate is becoming eclipsed.

So far the support for fighting or disregarding the directive has been idealogical in “sticking it to the man” or forcing a confrontation. Even on a matter where the priest is wrong, using a child’s first communion (and invite the possibility of him wrongly shaming or embarassing this girl by wrongly barring her from reception or castigating her and her family)… Well I say to you idealogues, it isn’t that some fights aren’t worth fighting, it is that encouraging putting seven year old children on the front lines can make you just as wrong.

FOR THE RECORD - I don’t like what (we are told second hand) he is doing, I don’t like what (we are told second hand) he is teaching, I don’t like what (we are told second hand) has been his response to his bishop.

That being the case, the Eucharist is our greatest treasure. That we recieve it is far more important than fighting battles of worrying about what we are wearing. In poor villiages in third world countries, I promise you such finery is not the concern - receiving Jesus is.

So now that many are fired up, urging the mother who is hear-set on a specific outfit type to surround this event for her daughter with a “fight, fight, fight!” for the “noble” cause of “fixin’ that lousy priest’s wagon”…

Well let us consider what is to be gained by doing that,
  • by fighting a priest,
  • by bringing in canon lawyers,
  • by calling for “observers from the Diocese” (when did we become the UN?)
  • by “doing it anyway” which (1) puts the daughter at risk for being wrongly refused - something folks here seem to be OK with and (2) makes the family and daughter a stand out in the parish for engaging in what (might be just) disobedience.
  • The latter might only serve to engender more parish resentment either of the priest, or for you and your family for doing what you were all told not to, the others wanted to do but did out of obedience, and you did do.
Over what, an outfit?

What good can come of all this??? I grew up in a fighting parish where the norm was for vocal parishoners to complain about everything, call around to each other to garner support for pet causes, some would demand removal of a priest, others who had befriended the priest were “enemies”… Friends & Family would quarrel over what was going on in the Catholic Church. It was just plain awful. It is disgraceful, it sets a lousy example to the children who see it, it is needlessly divisive.

So before anyone else here promotes “the fight for a cause” (albeit a possibly just one) why don’t we consider what the consequences of that fight could be. A true Pyrrhic victory indeed.

So Cotaface:

As far as I can tell this issue could have been the impetus for your creating an account at CAF. That is fine. But be prepared to get a Catholic Answer you hadn’t hoped to hear, tempting as it may be to find likeminded folks who are interested in fighting this battle with you. Understand, strangers on the web encouraging this fight, have NOTHING to lose personally.

You seem to have three directions:
  1. If you need for her to just be with her classmates and recieve Jesus, get her a nice pastel dress.
  2. If you need for her to wear a white dress to recieve Jesus, contact me and I will find you a shrine or a parish within 150 miles of your town to go to.
  3. If you need to demonstrate that you are right, he is wrong, and surround your daugters reception of the sacrament in a fight, please disregard all this, and listen to those urging you to hire a lawyer, wear a white dress anyway, contact diocesan officials for an observer, or otherwise make a stink and a fuss.
Which do you want to do?
 
Brendan said:
I might be mistaken, but I think she might have misheard the Bishop’s office say that her CANONICAL Rights are being violated.

Which is true.
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No-he actually said my civil rights in being discriminated against for wearing a certain color.
still not so sure about canonical rights-I am following up on that aspect.
 
cotaface said:
No-he actually said my civil rights in being discriminated against for wearing a certain color.
still not so sure about canonical rights-I am following up on that aspect.
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Find out who the Judicial Vicar is for your diocese and run this past him.

The decisions of the Judical Vicar on matters of Canon Law are second only to the bishop himself in authority.
 
“…* by “doing it anyway” which (1) puts the daughter at risk for being wrongly refused - something folks here seem to be OK with and…”

Not all the folks here are ok with that…several people, including myself, have said the MOST IMPORTANT THING is the girl have a good First Communion. The dress, the priest, the rights…all have to be secondary to the Eucharist and the Girl.
 
You seem to have three directions:
  1. If you need for her to just be with her classmates and recieve Jesus, get her a nice pastel dress.
  2. If you need for her to wear a white dress to recieve Jesus, contact me and I will find you a shrine or a parish within 150 miles of your town to go to.
  3. If you need to demonstrate that you are right, he is wrong, and surround your daugters reception of the sacrament in a fight, please disregard all this, and listen to those urging you to hire a lawyer, wear a white dress anyway, contact diocesan officials for an observer, or otherwise make a stink and a fuss.
Which do you want to do?

Thank you. I am fully aware of my choices. Of course I don’t want to subject my daughter to the utter humiliation of being rejected in front of her classmates, community, family and her 96 year oold grandmother.
My question was, are my Canonic rights or my civil rights being violated. So far, we all have opinions, but noone can actually say for sure if the answer is yes or no.
Second, one person questioned if the priest was doing this crazy “no white” for FHC and blatently disregarding the bishop’s orders, what else could he being doing??? And, if the Diocese is not willing to stand up to him, isn’t that part of the same problem that occured years ago w/ the abuse. No, no, no-in a million years I am not comparing a dress color to the horrific abuses that occured. I am simply comparing the similarities in how the church handles matters that are not in communion with Rome and how they handle priests who feel they are Kings of the castle and ultimately untouchable.
I stand alone on this matter because this priest becomes beligerant when challenged ( I was publically berated a few weeks ago when I tried to discuss the issue). Others are intimidated by him and I feel with good reason.
So, let’s take the path of least resistance and assume I dress my daughter in something other than my dear cousins white dress. Then what? How much father can he go? What other restrictions can he put in place beyond the following:
No white at communion
No kneeling during the consecration
No genuflecting after receiving first communion
No kneeling and praying at the beginning of mass(the place is as loud as ever!)
and the list goes on. As a reminder, we only just moved her and I didn’t “parish shop”. I just went to my local parish thinking, hey, it’s Catholic". Never did I think that couldn’t be further from the truth.
 
Cotaface - I am so sorry that this is happening to you. I don’t know if it violates your canonical or civil rights, so I can’t answer your question on that. I do think, though, that somewhere along the line, if this pastor is not moved or reprimanded, it would probably be better to become part of another parish. It might be easier to become part of a Cathedral parish. We recently did that, as the cathedral has been our “home” since we were in collge, got married, there, attend mass there every Sunday, etc. We just needed a letter of permission from the pastor to give to the pastor of the cathedral.

That said, in terms of what to do with your daughter’s FHC, if you feel it is important for her to receive her FHC there, you could maybe do a cream or very pale yellow dress with a colored bow. They are not white, but light enough. Afterwards, without having your daughter know about all the controversy, change parishes. She can find out later on the reasons why you had to switch. I just hope that your pastor would not be so petty as to deny you permission to change parishes.

If you feel it is important to challenge this priest, do it after your daughter makes her FHC, so to avoid any potential hurt to her, if she is the type to be affected in that way.

Good luck!
 
OutinChgoburbs said:
As puzzleannie stated, the only thing recorded is baptism, confirmation and marriage. First Communion should not be recorded, but some DREs and office managers insist it must. First reconciliation should never be recorded, and those little certificates they pass out should not exist.
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🤷 I’ve moved my membership three times in two states, every single time the paperwork requires I list the dates of Baptism, FHC, Confirmation. Guess I could just write “nun ya” on the FHC date/place line if we move again 😃
 
Sarabande said:
If you feel it is important to challenge this priest, do it after your daughter makes her FHC, so to avoid any potential hurt to her, if she is the type to be affected in that way.

Good luck!
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That seems the logical thing. Go through things now with a sweater or trim or another dress. Take up the battle AFTER your daughter’s FHC for the children who will follow in this Parish.
 
kage_ar said:
🤷 I’ve moved my membership three times in two states, every single time the paperwork requires I list the dates of Baptism, FHC, Confirmation. Guess I could just write “nun ya” on the FHC date/place line if we move again 😃
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While Canon Law doesn’t require it, the Diocese certainly wants numbers on the annual reports and the combination registers have a section for it.

When new people sign in to the parish we usually just ask whether the children have received all the sacraments of initiation and where. If we have to prepare them for FHC or Confirmation we don’t rely on the parents’ memory, we want a certificate of baptism.
 
cotaface said:
You seem to have three directions:
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If we establish that they are, which of the three options listed above do they change? If we establish that they are, are you still prepared to subject your daughter to that?
cotaface said:
So far, we all have opinions, but noone can actually say for sure if the answer is yes or no.
Second, one person questioned if the priest was doing this crazy “no white” for FHC and blatently disregarding the bishop’s orders, what else could he being doing???

And, if the Diocese is not willing to stand up to him, isn’t that part of the same problem that occured years ago w/ the abuse. No, no, no-in a million years I am not comparing a dress color to the horrific abuses that occured. You are just casually mentioning this? I am simply comparing the similarities in how the church handles matters that are not in communion with Rome ??? and how they handle priests who feel they are Kings of the castle and ultimately untouchable.
I stand alone on this matter because this priest becomes beligerant when challenged ( I was publically berated a few weeks ago when I tried to discuss the issue). Others are intimidated by him and I feel with good reason.
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If you have been publicly berated, than it was publicly witnessed. Your public appearance with your little girl in her white dress in public is now no less than an open act of defiance, even if it is defiance of that which is unjust. Your little girl is going to know about what is going on either from realizing she is the only one dressed in that fashion, the looks you get, being denied (even unjustly) communion, or what the other little children tell her on the playground. (“My mommy said you got to wear that dress because your mommy was protesting.”) Children find everything out. Other parents talk in front of their own children.
cotaface said:
So, let’s take the path of least resistance and assume I dress my daughter in something other than my dear cousins white dress. Then what? How much father can he go? What other restrictions can he put in place beyond the following:
No white at communion
No kneeling during the consecration
No genuflecting after receiving first communion
No kneeling and praying at the beginning of mass(the place is as loud as ever!)
and the list goes on.
Click to expand...
Lets lay off a little of the drama here. Not being able to wear your dear cousin’s dress will not automatically lead slippery slope to “No white at communion, No kneeling during the consecration,
No genuflecting after receiving first communion, No kneeling and praying at the beginning of mass(the place is as loud as ever!)” Taking a stand on your daughter wearing the dress of your choice for her First Holy Communion will not be the heroic act that prevents any of that from happening… Caving will not be the defeat that opens wide the gate. Let’s not wrap your clothing preferences in such drama.
cotaface said:
As a reminder, we only just moved here and I didn’t “parish shop”. I just went to my local parish thinking, hey, it’s Catholic". Never did I think that couldn’t be further from the truth.
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Two things out of this: You just moved there and you want to make waves like this already? You think that it couldn’t be further from the truth that the parish is Catholic because your dress preference isn’t being respected?

In all that you have offered, how are your three options outlined at the top changed at all?

15 of the 15 posts you have posted since registering here have been about this topic. My honest question to you is did you come looking for reasonable advice as to what to do in this situation that would be best for your daughter (I think that has been offered), or did you come looking to be confirmed in your righteous outrage looking for tips on how to accomplish exactly what you are looking to do?

Buy her a new dress or take her elsewhere.

Anything else really is making waves to get what you want (even though you are right to want it) and is going to create conflict in that parish, with the priest, and your daughter will know about it.

And that will be what surrounds her first experience with communion - taking the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

Buy her a new dress or take her elsewhere.
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I haven’t had time to read the whole thread so I hope I haven’t duplicated too many times.

White is symbolic of the purity that we should all have when receiving Our Lord and, of course, it has the ties to baptism already brought up. It is traditional to wear white on the First Communion day and has been for many years. My sisters have their pictures wearing simple white robes but white they were.

Next, the Vatican has put out documents on receiving First Confession after the First Communion. It was stopped. The pastor is also going against Canon 914
Can. 914 It is primarily the duty of parents and those who take the place of parents, as well as the duty of pastors, to take care that children who have reached the use of reason are prepared properly and, after they have made sacramental confession, are refreshed with this divine food as soon as possible. It is for the pastor to exercise vigilance so that children who have not attained the use of reason or whom he judges are not sufficiently disposed do not approach holy communion.
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And the document putting an end to this practice:
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CCLSANCT.htm

And the most recent on the issue from Redemptionis Sacramentum:
[87.] The First Communion of children must always be preceded by sacramental confession and absolution
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vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

If you’d like to know what I would do…I would write your pastor a letter and tell him you child will be wearing a First Communion dress and that according to canon law, he may not deny the sacrament to anyone properly disposed. I’d also inform him of the documentation above and that you want your daughter to receive her First Confession first. Tell him in the letter that you would like to know if he is still preparing to refuse your child her First Confession and First Communion and ask for the reasons why. Make sure that you CC the bishop. If he’s denying you for any other reason than your child is not prepared (and how could that be if she’s gone through the church’s great program :rolleyes: ) then you most certainly have a canonical case and more than likely the bishop will step in. Also, if you child is denied, I don’t see why any other pastor should feel bad about letting your child receive her sacraments there.

Yes, you are making a “fuss” but somethings are worth “fussing” over. The whole “the children are too young to understand sin” argument is goofy. If they’re too young to understand sin, can they really understand the Real Presence?

Some of us take our Sacraments seriously and the symbolism that goes with them just as serious. The same people that are saying you should just put them in a pastel dress would probably sue the church if someone told them their daughter couldn’t wear a white wedding dress.🤷

And as far as your child figuring out there’s a “fuss”, I don’t think that’s such a bad example. Remember how young some of the saints were.

Your pastor is wrong. I’m just guessing he’s not a theologian so his “theological opinions” don’t really mean a whole lot. It sounds quite a bit as if he’s trying to downplay sin and the Real Presence. He want to be a maverick and someone better to stand up to him before the whole situation at that parish gets worse. Again, a priest cannot canonically deny the sacraments to someone who is properly disposed.
 
bear06 said:
And as far as your child figuring out there’s a “fuss”, I don’t think that’s such a bad example. Remember how young some of the saints were.

Your pastor is wrong. I’m just guessing he’s not a theologian so his “theological opinions” don’t really mean a whole lot. It sounds quite a bit as if he’s trying to downplay sin and the Real Presence. He want to be a maverick and someone better to stand up to him before the whole situation at that parish gets worse. Again, a priest cannot canonically deny the sacraments to someone who is properly disposed.
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And it is wise to stand up to him in the context of one’s child’s First Holy Communion?

Do you have children? I don’t.

But I did spend a childhood in a parish where there was much infighting. Oddly, my parents - especially my mother - did not understand it when I had strong words with our parish priest and spent a few years refusing to go to a “novus ordo” Mass. I refused to attend my cousin’s wedding when he got married in a Lutheran parish to a Lutheran girl… And for my strong stands - justified as they may have been - I only grew in pride and self-righteousness… And convinced no one but created bitterness in my own family and more problems.

We can come up with all the reasons in the world for why this parent should be angry and should be within her rights to have her own daughter wear the outfit that she wants her to wear and why this guy is wrong.

But if protesting and bickering have taught me anything, it is that righteous stands aren’t going to plant the seeds of saintliness here. But a first communion unblemished by controversy may.

There are times to take a stand, write the bishop, correct actions, and correct bad theologizing over the cosmetics - and that is what apparel in this case is - of a ritual.

So I invite more people here if they wish to justify why feuding with this obviously wrong priest in the context of a minor child’s first holy communion to keep writing if they wish to feel satisfied in urging a parent to take on the evils of a priest who would not let her (rightly) do what she fancies.

But if you want to encourage making saints, above and beyond appeal to canon law and hagiographic examples of “standing up to the man” we may do well to consider suggesting she buy a new dress or take her daughter elsewhere for communion where she can have her dressed as she pleases, and the day can go by unblemished and without feuding.

I have been there, done this. Growing up in a feuding parish that produced NO vocations and watching the marriages of prominent church families that got involved in such disintegrate. There in fact may be absolutely no correlation between the infighting and the domestic difficulties, but how can we know or presume that if they hadn’t had just a tad bit more humility and focus on worthy reception of the sacraments rather than fighting the priest that they wouldn’t have had the graces they needed to have saintlier lives?

People who wish to wage righteous war against the pastor (even when he is wrong) should go ahead and do so. But I beg, as a child who went through this, that children be left out of it. Turning them into pawns to “stick it to the (wrong thinking) priest” is destructive and in the end NO GOOD will come of it.

Buy her a new dress or take her elsewhere.

So for the fourth or fifth time, I urge you, get a hold of me if you need assistence in finding a shrine or chapel to attend where your daughter can wear the clothes you want her to wear. PFC@hotmail.com
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Lets lay off a little of the drama here. Not being able to wear your dear cousin’s dress will not automatically lead slippery slope to “No white at communion, No kneeling during the consecration,
No genuflecting after receiving first communion, No kneeling and praying at the beginning of mass(the place is as loud as ever!)” Taking a stand on your daughter wearing the dress of your choice for her First Holy Communion will not be the heroic act that prevents any of that from happening… Caving will not be the defeat that opens wide the gate. Let’s not wrap your clothing preferences in such drama.
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I think you misread here.
What other restrictions can he put in place beyond the following:
No white at communion
No kneeling during the consecration
No genuflecting after receiving first communion
No kneeling and praying at the beginning of mass(the place is as loud as ever!)
and the list goes on.
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To me that says all these things are already happening in her parish.
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Much in the same way that baptized non-Catholics coming to the Catholic Church are NOT to be subjected to RCIA or forced to wait till Easter, this is roundly ignored… (In fact baptized Christians are to be recieved on any Sunday after private instruction…)
.
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RCIA is not something potential converts are “subjected to” it is a gift from the Church, an invitation, a welcome to become part of the life, work and mission of the Parish and the wider Church, and an acknowledgement that we come to Christ in the context of the community, because he ordained it that way. Baptized non-Catholics are entitled to this welcome, as well as to sufficient catechesis to intelligently assume the burdens of Catholic life and practice and to understand differences in doctrine that present issues for them. If you live in a parish where there are priests, pastoral staff, or volunteer with the luxury of time for private instruction for dozens of candidates, you are very fortunate and should be thanking God on your knees.
 
Isn’t it interesting that to some people, a particular set of clothes is so incredibly important to wear in a First Holy Communion, that they would fight the priest on the matter.

But to suggest that a particular set of clothes (Sunday best) is important to wear at weekly Sunday Mass is an affront to many, many people. “God doesn’t care what I wear!” they say. “It’s what’s in my heart that’s important.”

Well, which is it???
 
Your quote-
Lets lay off a little of the drama here. Not being able to wear your dear cousin’s dress will not automatically lead slippery slope to “No white at communion, No kneeling during the consecration,
No genuflecting after receiving first communion, No kneeling and praying at the beginning of mass(the place is as loud as ever!)” Taking a stand on your daughter wearing the dress of your choice for her First Holy Communion will not be the heroic act that prevents any of that from happening… Caving will not be the defeat that opens wide the gate. Let’s not wrap your clothing preferences in such drama.

Please don’t insult me. I’m not being dramatic. These ARE currently happening today at this church. I am pointing out the other ways in which this church does not stand on the tradition of Catholicism. Oh-forgot to mention they also have First Reconciliation after FHC.
 
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