Priest: Ultimate Fighting is 'Murder'

[Abenadar]

OK, when presenting arguments about the topic of “Ultimate Fighting is Murder”, I would suggest Abenadar that we all do so in a polite way, and in doing so avoid a lot of hypocrisy. Also, I suspect that a reading of the other parts of the Catechism about how we treat others may be in order.

The following comment was made with a large amount of sarcasm:

And the rest of the ad hominem attacks

+1 for you. Point taken. Thank you for your good example.

 

[shockerfan]

You only state half of it: The goal is to win by violence, in any way possible (except, I imagine, avoiding the junk and maybe a few other no-nos).

I’ll leave you with this final comment. You originally hung your hat on the CCC’s commentary on the 5th commandment. I thought you made a good effort at stating your case, but I found Milliardo’s post more pursausive. It may seem very obvious to you that mma is wrong, but its not obvious to the rest of us who are debating you.

Its OK for you to have a negative opinion of mma. Its ok for the Priest in the video to have a negative opinion of mma. Based on all the evidence I have seen presented, I’m not violating the 5th commandment by watching or supporting mma.

Some things taught by the Church are very black and white (like its stances on abortion), and some things are in the gray (like this issue). Until the Pope makes an Ex Cathedra statement on this subject, Catholics of good conscience are allowed to disagree.

God Bless.

 

[WillieWonka]

Once again, the objective is to move a ball, and block people. Also, those big lugs are wearing huge pads. I wanna see MMA fighters start competing in those huge, big, fat sumo suits. That would be hilarious.

Is rugby against god’s plan? No huge pads.

 

[LBSDBS]

Before I get started, be it known that I have spent half my life studying martial arts, melee weapons and firearms, am an armature gun and sword smith and can literally go on for weeks on end about how to kill and cripple. Bottom line is that I am not talking out my butt nor am I someone who has little man syndrum.

I am definitely at odds with allot of people here on this stuff. Competitive fighting is a no brainier and this man spelled it out reasonably well. Personal or not, beating each other to a pulp is something that should never be done or treated lightly. On top of all that, pretty much all Christians think or believe that the body is the temple of the Lord. When you look at humanity in that respect, harming others, even if it is just sport, ESPECIALLY when it is only sport, is outright hypocritical.

Now we’ll move on to sports it’s self. Think about this for a moment. What is the goal of sports and why do you seek that goal.

It is one thing to use armor to SAFELY spar with a friend for educational purposes or play catch at the park with a friend, but when you enter competitive sports against another, in case I am missing something, the goal is to WIN, and for you to win, your opponent has to LOOSE. Then comes the question, what emotions and/or desires are you trying to serve by WINNING. Pride maybe?

One thing I REALLY like about the Catholic church is that they have enough sense to recognize that pride is the active root of all evil. Pretty much everything pride does is negative and harmful and as far as I have been able to find, it does not serve a single positive function that has no alternative.

When you engage in competitive sports, you are fueling this function, a function that as Christians, you should be resisting.

The question has of course been brought to me. “What if you just want to do it for fun?” Well, I like Volleyball. When I play it, I just bounce it over the net with my friends and pay no attention to score or who is doing better then who. There are plenty of ways to engage in recreational activities like that without trying to defeat or be better then the other guy. I have never in my life enjoyed an organized baseball game as much as playing catch with a buddy in the park.

That all said, if people want to do this stuff with and/or to each other, then let them. It’s not my or your job to use force to keep people from acting stupid. As far as I am concerned, that’s between them and God.

 

[WillieWonka]

If you have spent that much time in the martial arts, then you know the MMA people are highly restricted in what they can do. We both can see all kinds of openings they don’t take because they are playing by the rules. That is why there are so few serious injuries and it has become a sport.

 

[lhk0pd]

Am i missing something here.as i remember as a Child walking past a Catholic School in Hastings Nebraska daily and recall definately watching the Nuns make sure that the Boys fought fair and used boxing Gloves.
I trained amateur boxers for twenty yrs and the disipline and respect for others those boys learned was what kept most of them away from drugs and crime. I feel really proud of these young men now married and with there own families as they always introduce there son’s to me as Coach and express desire that i would teach there son’s as they now tell others including there sons how hard i made them work and how i was more of a Father than there own sometimes.
So if this Priest is talking about the Hustlers that run UFC’s and Professional Boxing on that i can agree as to those people it’s strictly about money and nothing more. But this i could almost guarantee if young men all participated in Sports (amateur) i honestly believe Juvenile delinquincy would be lower. Young Males are for the most part programed for physical activity and if you check the back grounds of most the young men that have killed others in the schools they attended you will discover a lack of sports in there lives and raised to not be normal boys but expected to behave at all times in a feminem controlled atmosphere. Ok i’m done but trust me i know i’m right.

 

[LBSDBS]

If you have spent that much time in the martial arts, then you know the MMA people are highly restricted in what they can do. We both can see all kinds of openings they don’t take because they are playing by the rules. That is why there are so few serious injuries and it has become a sport.

It doesn’t matter. As pointed out, in order to win, you have to beat your opponent to serenity, AND, the very motivation behind your actions is fueling pride.

When I studied martial arts, we sparred, not to beat our opponent to serenity or to fuel our pride, but to become better skilled at defending ourselves and loved ones. It wasn’t about being “better then you” it was about survival, and we wore armor to make sure no one got hurt. Furthermore, much of what we were learning was very different in nature then UFC and stuff like that. We weren’t learning how to punch and kick people to serenity. We were learning how to restrain people or disable, cripple or kill in a single hit. Very different world.

My biggest real issue is not fighting sports specifically, but with the very nature of competitive sports in general. The motivation to defeat your opponent and be better then them. If they are trying to rob, rape, injure or kill you and you have to defeat them in self-defense, that’s one thing, but just doing it to fuel your pride and be champion, that’s where we have a problem.

It’s one thing to do something on impulse that is meant to fuel your pride, but actually going out of your way to engage in an organized, practiced and trained for activity that in it’s very nature, revolves around pride, that doesn’t sound like something people who are of a faith that understands and recognizes the evil nature of pride should be doing.

It’s sort of like comparing (in the murder sense) temporary insanity to premeditated murder.

 

[Milliardo]

Where in the catechism does it say it isn’t against contact sports? Well, it doesn’t do that either.

Exactly; so why are you applying something that doesn’t specifically apply to it? Now, it’s all fine if you are against contact sports of any kind. We all respect that. We have our choices and our wants. No question there. But to insist that the Catechism would be against it would be going too far; if the Catholic Church has not pronounced anything against any contact sport, then why do you insist it does so? Because you don’t like it? Then you go and preach to people that the Catholic Church is against it based on your own presumptions? Again, because you simply don’t like it? I’ve mentioned other sports which would fall into the same provisions you cite. We can cite, again, motor sports–the love for speed has been mentioned. By joining any of the motor sports, you’re putting your life in danger by going at excessive speeds.

You’re right that it doesn’t directly talk about MMA etc, but it does, in a general way (as is appropriate for a book that can’t list every example in the world) speak against it.

If we stretch your notion, we can actually apply it to any sport, not just contact sports, don’t you agree?

(such as in football, where you run into each other to stop the other guy…but even in football you’re not kicking and punching and choking the other guy).

Well, let’s see–you tackle the guy, which can cause him bodily harm. You try to bring him down while he’s on a forward momentum–a very dangerous act, I should say, and the way one does it isn’t exactly safe, either. So you can add American football to that list of dangerous sports you want to ban.

I have already touched on the principles of my argument so many times already, but if you really want me to do a point-by-point of what milliardo said, let me know.

Unfortunately, it’s lacking so much, and here I am picking your arguments apart. Not to mention, you still have to show us where specifically does the Catholic Church says it is against contact sports. Let’s go over other contact sports–we have karate, taekwondo, judo, aikido, Olympic wrestling…the list can go on. Are you against these sports as well?

 

[Abenadar]

Exactly; so why are you applying something that doesn’t specifically apply to it?

So now there has to be a specific condemnation? You and I have analytical brains for a reason. We can take a principal and see how it applies to different situations. A catechism can not, and will never cite every example of right or wrong, but the general principals definitely are there.

Now, it’s all fine if you are against contact sports of any kind. We all respect that. We have our choices and our wants. No question there.

But I’m not, and have said as much. Moreover, I never gave this subject any consideration whatsoever until two days ago! I’ve seen plenty of fights on TV and it never bothered me…I like(d) the action, however, this thread got me thinking. It’s not as if I have had this anti-MMA bias all my life…I simply saw this subject and decided to read the catechism about it. I happen to see it applying very easily to some things.

But to insist that the Catechism would be against it would be going too far;

Not in my mind. I see a clear correlation between the general principals it sets forth and many types of activities that all of a sudden don’t seem so harmless to me.

if the Catholic Church has not pronounced anything against any contact sport, then why do you insist it does so? Because you don’t like it? Then you go and preach to people that the Catholic Church is against it based on your own presumptions?

No, it’s based on the principals laid down by the Church. The Church has not “pronounced” anything against contact sports because every single instance is a case by case consideration. They don’t need to do that. All they need to do is set forth a principal and then we can rely on our own cognitive ability to apply it. Nobody ever told me that 85 x 76 = 6460, but I was able to use the principals of arithmetic to come up with an answer for myself.

Again, because you simply don’t like it? I’ve mentioned other sports which would fall into the same provisions you cite. We can cite, again, motor sports–the love for speed has been mentioned. By joining any of the motor sports, you’re putting your life in danger by going at excessive speeds.

It’s not that I don’t like it, it’s that I see that the guiding principals laid down by the Church point to it as being detrimental in many ways. The catechism deals with the issue of many types of serious violence (war, abortion, euthanasia), but it spends less time dealing with violence for the sake of fun probably for the reason that “serious” violence (listed above) is more detrimental to society. But it’s not as though they don’t consider violence (and danger) for the sake of fun. It can be dangerous and sophomoric, but it’s not equal to abortion.

If we stretch your notion, we can actually apply it to any sport, not just contact sports, don’t you agree?

Many sports, especially “fighting” sports and “extreme” sports…Not competetive swimming and golfing etc.

Well, let’s see–you tackle the guy, which can cause him bodily harm. You try to bring him down while he’s on a forward momentum–a very dangerous act, I should say, and the way one does it isn’t exactly safe, either. So you can add American football to that list of dangerous sports you want to ban.

You can make a case for football if you’d like. Up until now the discussion has been more toward MMA. Also, I didn’t say I want to ban football. I definitely see a difference between football and MMA, and that difference is the objective of the sport, which I have mentioned. If I had to rank three popular sports in terms of violence, it’d go like this: MMA, football, basketball. Each is less violent the further from MMA it gets, until at last you arrive at…ya, you guessed it, competitive knitting.

Unfortunately, it’s lacking so much, and here I am picking your arguments apart.

All it’s lacking is an official anathema and an imprimatur. You’re not picking apart my arguments because you haven’t even considered the fact that there might actually be something wrong with gratuitous violence, nor have you considered the fact that the catechism can lay down principals, but cannot cover every single possible specific situation.

Not to mention, you still have to show us where specifically does the Catholic Church says it is against contact sports.

First of all, I never claimed that the Church is against contact sports. Plus, I have already dealt with this tired out and, quite frankly, impotent argument. I’ll say it again: apply general concepts to specific actions. In absolutes, the church issues anathemas (such as abortion). In subjectives (aka case-by-case considerations) the Church can do no more than lay out the principals of how to judge a thing.

[Let’s go over other contact sports–we have karate, taekwondo, judo, aikido, Olympic wrestling…the list can go on. Are you against these sports as well?

Subjective. Gimme a scenario and I’ll let you know if I’d watch or not. I’ve seen people practicing karate on the beach…by themselves. Is this action itself bad? No.

 

[Milliardo]

So now there has to be a specific condemnation? You and I have analytical brains for a reason.

I am sorry, but this just does not do it. The Catholic Church would, at various times, cite examples as to what would constitute sin, and what would not. This is to aid and guide the faithful. The Catechism is a great tool, but it can be vague and confusing for many people, thus the Church guides in that regard. Having said that, putting your own notions and forcing it even if they do not apply in certain situations is simply having your own interpretation. Or, to be short, it’s simply your notion.

A catechism can not, and will never cite every example of right or wrong, but the general principals definitely are there.

Yes, the general principles are in the Catechism, but they should rightly be applied as well. In the instances you cite, they have been wrongly applied. I have yet to see your point for point refutation of my earlier post; I have given reasons as to why in your citation of the provisions in the Catechism is flawed, and thus cannot be applied.

I’ve seen plenty of fights on TV and it never bothered me…I like(d) the action, however, this thread got me thinking. It’s not as if I have had this anti-MMA bias all my life…I simply saw this subject and decided to read the catechism about it. I happen to see it applying very easily to some things.

Ah, see now where you’re getting at? Reread what I posted above. You are simply applying your own notions and forcing them on the provisions. You’re going through your own conclusions, not the Church’s. You make the mistake of saying, ‘The Church would disagree on such and such sport’. Where is the evidence of this? None. It’s all your notion.

No, it’s based on the principals laid down by the Church.

No, it’s simply in your mind. Not the Church’s. You are putting in words which neither the Pope, nor any bishop, has said. So one priest is against MMA. What does this mean? It might mean much, or it doesn’t mean anything. As it stands, it seems it doesn’t mean anything other than a view by one priest.

The Church has not “pronounced” anything against contact sports because every single instance is a case by case consideration.

So now you backtrack a bit and say it must be a case by case basis, whereas earlier you were almost adamant that it should apply in all contact sports.

The catechism deals with the issue of many types of serious violence (war, abortion, euthanasia), but it spends less time dealing with violence for the sake of fun probably for the reason that “serious” violence (listed above) is more detrimental to society.

Now you are willing to allow that contact sports is simply entertainment. It’s amusing how earlier you equate it to gladiatorial combat, as if opponents are out there to kill each other. As I’ve said earlier, the sports in question would not allow their contestants to join and be maimed or seriously injured.

Many sports, especially “fighting” sports and “extreme” sports…Not competetive swimming and golfing etc.

Unfortunately again, if we stretch your notion, we can actually apply it even in, say, swimming. Or even golf. Sports has its aspects of danger in one way or the other. Part of that rush is that thrill. This might be true for the more extreme sports, which appeals to our more basic instinct of survival.

I definitely see a difference between football and MMA, and that difference is the objective of the sport, which I have mentioned.

The object of football and rugby is to stop the other from reaching the goal, and to do that one has to tackle the ball carrier. It can involve serious risks in itself, sometimes even worse than one would get in MMA or boxing. As you can see, if we go and stretch your notion, we can include any kind of sport. Maybe chess might come in later as a dangerous sport as well?

You’re not picking apart my arguments because you haven’t even considered the fact that there might actually be something wrong with gratuitous violence

Would we say though that such sports are gratuitous in its violence? Perhaps it depends on what context we’re talking about here.

Subjective. Gimme a scenario and I’ll let you know if I’d watch or not. I’ve seen people practicing karate on the beach…by themselves.

Interesting. Now it becomes subjective? Why so? In judo, we see two men trying to pound the other to the ground. Taekwondo would involve kicks to the torso and legs. Yes, they do wear armor around the torso to soften the impact, but we still do see injuries nonetheless.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I did consider it, and if you go back and read you’ll see just how many times. As I said, THE objective of MMA is is submission by deliberate violence. While these things can happen in other sports it isn’t THE objective.

Once again, the objective is to move a ball, and block people. Also, those big lugs are wearing huge pads. I wanna see MMA fighters start competing in those huge, big, fat sumo suits. That would be hilarious.

Wrong. They’re both the same. You can’t have a football game or a hockey game without people smashing deliberately into each other so that they could score a goal. Furthermore, I’d even be willing to wager that the armor itself could cause football players to be more forceful in their tackles.

Are you serious? Consider prostitutes. They WILLINGLY offer up their bodies while simultaneously being exploited, not by one, but by two guys…the pimp and the john.

Wrong again. Tell me, do you know of any prostitute who entered that industry because they were forced by need for money? I should know, my country’s pretty notorious for its sad prostitute stories.

The thing I have a problem with is the manner in which the skills are measured…Unadulterated, unnecessary savagery against another human being.

It’s not the gifts you are given, but rather how you make use of them, that determines the value of a thing.

Hitting dummies and mannequins isn’t going to give you the same amount of experience compared to sparring. Furthermore, if avoiding any real training by that method is not going to increase its value then just knowing how to perform the moves should have been enough to defend oneself. Obviously, the real world says otherwise.

 

[WillieWonka]

It doesn’t matter. As pointed out, in order to win, you have to beat your opponent to serenity, AND, the very motivation behind your actions is fueling pride.

When I studied martial arts, we sparred, not to beat our opponent to serenity or to fuel our pride, but to become better skilled at defending ourselves and loved ones. It wasn’t about being “better then you” it was about survival, and we wore armor to make sure no one got hurt. Furthermore, much of what we were learning was very different in nature then UFC and stuff like that. We weren’t learning how to punch and kick people to serenity. We were learning how to restrain people or disable, cripple or kill in a single hit. Very different world.

My biggest real issue is not fighting sports specifically, but with the very nature of competitive sports in general. The motivation to defeat your opponent and be better then them. If they are trying to rob, rape, injure or kill you and you have to defeat them in self-defense, that’s one thing, but just doing it to fuel your pride and be champion, that’s where we have a problem.

It’s one thing to do something on impulse that is meant to fuel your pride, but actually going out of your way to engage in an organized, practiced and trained for activity that in it’s very nature, revolves around pride, that doesn’t sound like something people who are of a faith that understands and recognizes the evil nature of pride should be doing.

It’s sort of like comparing (in the murder sense) temporary insanity to premeditated murder.

How do you know someone’s motivation is to fuel their pride?

Would you offer the same judgement on the kid who enters the chess tournament? Or the kid who works hard to be first in his class? Any pursuit of excellence?

 

[Scottishguy]

I used to box for my regiment in the army, I have had 3 amateur mixed martial fights and i have to say some of the comments regarding that we do it just do beat the living daylights of each other is disrespectull and show a lack of understanding of the sport, To the people who fight, Martial arts is an important part of our lives,We don’t do it because we are bloodthirsty and want to see some guys blood all over the canvas, we do it because we feel such a strong connection to the sport, It teaches us so many things Discipline, Work Ethic it gives you a feeling of self worth acceptance, it gets you fit and healthy and it can transform lives for the better . I can honestly say that if i didn’t get dragged to a martial arts gym when i was 15 i would have continued on the same path as i was on and that was leading to nowhere but destruction.,

.we accept that we are going to pick up a few injuries on the way and we counter that by training our bodies how to cope. I have read some of the arguments saying that our body is a temple and as such we shouldn’t willingly risk it, but how many of us are overweight, drink an excessive amount of alcohol, eat a lot of junk food all of which damage your body. I am not the only Christian fighter and I have put it towards God many times and not once has he told me to stop, To some people Martial arts and contact sports are extremely important lets not judge them because it doesn’t tie up with what you your own personal thoughts on what sport should be.

 

[thunderballs75]

Believe it or not, I do BJJ. It is great for exercise, and especially for self-defense. I like it as a sport as well, because it truly does require skill. It’s somewhat similar to wrestling, which I enjoy as well. So I’m not saying a little healthy competition is bad. But when it fosters the extreme pride with some of these fighters (trust me, I’ve met some) it can become sinful.

Also, the difference is, UFC is much bloodier and painful. How one can enjoy the sight of someone beating the hell out of another for money, I do not know. How these people are exploited, the pain they suffer, and even the hatred it causes between other fighters, just so a bunch of people sitting at home can get a few kicks. The ones who sin worst though, are the ones who love to watch the blood. It is certainly not Christ-like. Imagining Our Lord sitting down and watching people break each others ribs and arms, just for greed, is something hard for me to picture. I don’t know about you.

God bless.

 

[WillieWonka]

Believe it or not, I do BJJ. It is great for exercise, and especially for self-defense. I like it as a sport as well, because it truly does require skill. It’s somewhat similar to wrestling, which I enjoy as well. So I’m not saying a little healthy competition is bad. But when it fosters the extreme pride with some of these fighters (trust me, I’ve met some) it can become sinful.

Also, the difference is, UFC is much bloodier and painful. How one can enjoy the sight of someone beating the hell out of another for money, I do not know. How these people are exploited, the pain they suffer, and even the hatred it causes between other fighters, just so a bunch of people sitting at home can get a few kicks. The ones who sin worst though, are the ones who love to watch the blood. It is certainly not Christ-like. Imagining Our Lord sitting down and watching people break each others ribs and arms, just for greed, is something hard for me to picture. I don’t know about you.

God bless.

Exploited? They work their tails off to get million dollar contracts in the UFC.

 

[thunderballs75]

Exploited? They work their tails off to get million dollar contracts in the UFC.

When it comes to those few UFC fighters, fair enough.

However, the majority of fighters that I know are not professional and certainly do not make million dollar contracts. Most MMA fighters do their fights in small local leagues, clubs, etc. And it is much more dangerous in these situations, because high-quality professional medical care isn’t necessarily right there on hand.

 

[Scottishguy]

When it comes to those few UFC fighters, fair enough.

However, the majority of fighters that I know are not professional and certainly do not make million dollar contracts. Most MMA fighters do their fights in small local leagues, clubs, etc. And it is much more dangerous in these situations, because high-quality professional medical care isn’t necessarily right there on hand.

What do you mean. all my fights even though in small clubs i still got a full physical before and after the fight, fair referee strict rules and fair competition, .

There are a few so called underground martial arts club who do it off the record, and that is majorly looked down upon by the majority of MMA clubs, Just because it doesn’t have the glitz and glam of the UFC doesnt mean its any more dangerous.

 

[WillieWonka]

When it comes to those few UFC fighters, fair enough.

However, the majority of fighters that I know are not professional and certainly do not make million dollar contracts. Most MMA fighters do their fights in small local leagues, clubs, etc. And it is much more dangerous in these situations, because high-quality professional medical care isn’t necessarily right there on hand.

Right. And every one of them works for the chance and walks into the ring.

 

[Coleski]

The UFC is a mix of the martial arts of boxing, karate, jujitsu, and wrestling. I enjoy watching the combat as a test of mind, body, training, and will. The referee jumps in before a fighter gets too badly hurt anyway. I enjoyed playing war when I was a kid. I even enjoyed some of the scraps I got in with my brothers and friends. Human societies have always needed those trained in the fighting arts. We still do. If I or a loved one was attacked by a criminal, I’d be happy if a skilled UFC fighter was present to defend us. If the sheep was present, I’m sorry to tell you that gently talking to the thug probably wouldn’t do much good. We have vast and horrible violence committed upon our society by those who use words and emotions as weapons. The billions of babies murdered by their mothers over the last thirty five years where not killed by UFC fighters. They were murdered by MD healers at the behest the children’s mothers. All supported by the likes of Nancy Pelosi, that kind hearted Italian American “Catholic” grandmother. This river of death and blood was accomplished with the skilled and murderous words of ACLU type lawyers; trained at Harvard and NYU. I’m sure this phony priest is far more silent about this most horrible mass murder in human history. If the UFC fighter beat up a criminal who was stomping someone into oblivion, I’m sure another ACLU lawyer would be filing a law suit against the UFC. Now that’s real violence.

 

[holy_moly]

Oh, come on…! The object of any fight is “submission” by the most direct means, aka knockout. But if a fighter has to resort to tapping out, well, that’s “acceptable”. Nevertheless, the violence is purely gratuitous. You weren’t able to answer the charge that this type of fighting is gratuitious…And the reason you can’t say it isn’t is because it is!

Actually, the object is to win; which can be accomplished by submission, KO, or decision.