Priest: You've contracepted our parochial school out of existence

[irishpatrick]

Why do you insist on accusing me of comparing Catholic schools unfavorably to public schools? I have nowhere made that comparison. I am comparing it to other tuition schools, i.e. non-Catholic private schools.

As I noted above that is a useless and misleading measure of performance.

Parents who are looking at cost will tend toward public schools because they do not charge tuition. (Of course the bloated costs are borne by tax payers but that is not a margial cost to parents.)

Parents who are looking for the best education for the dollar are going to, in far too many cases, choose non-Catholic private schools.

First, many non-Catholic private schools perform only marginally better than public schools, and many do NOT perform as well as Catholic schools.

Second, most non-Catholic private schools have tuition rates that are easily double the tuition rate of Catholic schools. Many of those non-Catholic private schools charge 8-10k for elementary grades, while most Catholic elementary schools charge 3-5K for tuition. In most cases Catholics can place 2-3 students in a Catholic school compared to 12 student in a non-Catholic private school.

Third, Catholic school grading standards are almost always higher than other schools. For example, an eighth grader in a Catholic school will need to score three points higher on tests to earn an “A” grade, versus most of his counterparts in other schools, including other private schools.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, it proves my point–that Catholic parents have apostasized.

We have not disagred on this at any point.

Where we disagree is whether and how much Catholic schools bear responsibility for this. I say a lot, you say none and point the finger elsewhere.

For purposes of this discussion let’s focus on the aposty of Catholic school-educated Catholics because they ought to have been sufficient to maintain Catholic schools.

The Church is to bear some blame too, no doubt…yet the majority falls on Catholic parents who snubbed their noses at Church teachings despite the Church making those teachings clear. Every Catholic is bound to know and follow the full faith, no matter what any other person is doing. The Catholic parents who have apostasized did so intentionally, they knew the faith, they rejected the faith, and they handed that down to their kids. The parents became social Catholics, and they “stuffed” their kids in Catholic schools to make themselves feel good–yet they did not get involved, they did not bring their kids to Mass, they did not teach their kids the faith, they did not go to Confession, etc…that has lead to this mess.

Once I read a study that stated 75% of children from families who had a father who was inactive in the faith, would grow up to be inactive in the faith. Conversely, in that same study, 75% of children who grew up with a father who was active in the faith, would be active in the faith as adults. The influence of fathers on the faith of their children is enormous–we are reaping what we sowed for forty years of attacks on men and fatherhood. Catholic men and fathers have walked away from the faith, they have not been active in large percentages, and it has been devestating for their children. So, while this apostasy has been between both genders, it is men that have created the crisis we are in because they left the faith and 75% of their children did the same.

Now reread your own words above substituting “Catholic school edcuated Catholic” for “Catholic” and see if maybe you begin to see my point.

 

[irishpatrick]

We have not disagred on this at any point.

Where we disagree is whether and how much Catholic schools bear responsibility for this. I say a lot, you say none and point the finger elsewhere.

For purposes of this discussion let’s focus on the aposty of Catholic school-educated Catholics because they ought to have been sufficient to maintain Catholic schools.

Now reread your own words above substituting “Catholic school edcuated Catholic” for “Catholic” and see if maybe you begin to see my point.

I did not say the schools do not bear any responsibility. I said the majority falls into the parents hands–and I firmly believe it does. The parents need to hold the schools responsible, yet since the parents do not care much about the faith, they are not going to press the schools in that area. Most parents do NOT want their kids to know more than they do about the faith…sad, but true. Parents do not want to be challenged by their kids as to why they do not go to Mass, or go to Confession, etc. Kids are smart, they do not like the, “do as say, not as I do,” behaivor from their Catholic parents.

You see, that is why Catholic schools have performed very well academically, but have done a much weaker job with the faith. Parents push the schools for academic performance, but they do not push nearly as much for faith formation performance–which is so sad because they only reason Catholic schools should exist is to formed children in the faith.

If there is a point that we can agree, it is that RC schools have not done a good enough job regarding faith formation…though I now see a renewed reason for hope in that area too.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

First, many non-Catholic private schools perform only marginally better than public schools, and many do NOT perform as well as Catholic schools.

This is true, but remember others have their own non-academic goals. I have a Jewish friend who has the same compaints about Jewish schools. And there are non-Catholic Christian schools too.

Lots of competition for education dollars.

Second, most non-Catholic private schools have tuition rates that are easily double the tuition rate of Catholic schools. Many of those non-Catholic private schools charge 8-10k for elementary grades, while most Catholic elementary schools charge 3-5K for tuition. In most cases Catholics can place 2-3 students in a Catholic school compared to 12 student in a non-Catholic private school.

It is true that the best private schools will cost the most. (I’m guessing you meant to say 1-2 in non-Catholic.) What you are saying, then, is that Catholic schools occupy a middle area and I’m sure there are some parents who can afford to pay this but not more. In purely markeing terms, this is always the hardest place to be. People will pay a premium for the best or they will take the lowest cost (in this case free) without much complaint. But rarely do they get excited about mediocrity.

 

[irishpatrick]

This is true, but remember others have their own non-academic goals. I have a Jewish friend who has the same compaints about Jewish schools. And there are non-Catholic Christian schools too.

Lots of competition for education dollars.

It is true that the best private schools will cost the most. (I’m guessing you meant to say 1-2 in non-Catholic.) What you are saying, then, is that Catholic schools occupy a middle area and I’m sure there are some parents who can afford to pay this but not more. In purely markeing terms, this is always the hardest place to be. People will pay a premium for the best or they will take the lowest cost (in this case free) without much complaint. But rarely do they get excited about mediocrity.

What I am saying is that very, very few schools outperform Catholic schools (some do), and yet Catholic schools do it for far less tuition, and they do provide faith formation in addition. In truth, there is no comparison because the bang for the buck goes to the Catholic schools beyond any doubt. I do not feel Catholic schools occupy the middle ground, they are far and away the best choice for all Catholics who can afford to send their kids to those schools. Take note that a great many non-Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools–they do that because they know the education is superior (at a fairly good price) compared to all other schools.

Now, here we have come full circle to my main point. Catholic adults need to contribute to Catholic schools so that more Catholic kids can attend those superior schools. At the same time, Catholic parents need to begin pushing for a high-level of faith formation that is equal to or greater than the academic education. If we can get that ball rolling, the world will be changed!

I have to go–tanx for the talk. Take care.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I did not say the schools do not bear any responsibility. I said the majority falls into the parents hands–and I firmly believe it does. The parents need to hold the schools responsible, yet since the parents do not care much about the faith, they are not going to press the schools in that area. Most parents do NOT want their kids to know more than they do about the faith…sad, but true. Parents do not want to be challenged by their kids as to why they do not go to Mass, or go to Confession, etc. Kids are smart, they do not like the, “do as say, not as I do,” behaivor from their Catholic parents.

You see, that is why Catholic schools have performed very well academically, but have done a much weaker job with the faith. Parents push the schools for academic performance, but they do not push nearly as much for faith formation performance–which is so sad because they only reason Catholic schools should exist is to formed children in the faith.

If there is a point that we can agree, it is that RC schools have not done a good enough job regarding faith formation…though I now see a renewed reason for hope in that area too.

If Catholic schools are failiing on the faith formation (which we agree) then they should all be closed down.

But to get back into the game they must offer a competitive academic experience to complement a better faith formation. This is where I have disagreed with Corki.

Now maybe it really is too late to save Catholic schools. Maybe they are already in a death spiral in which apostized parents don’t push for better faith formation and thus goes the next generation. And to add to the dead weight, we no longer have an abundance of cheap labor as religious vocations are dying as well. And my converstions with religious educators leads me to believe that they generally regard poor countries to be a more urgent calling, and reasonably so.

It’s a pickle.

 

[irishpatrick]

If Catholic schools are failiing on the faith formation (which we agree) then they should all be closed down.

But to get back into the game they must offer a competitive academic experience to complement a better faith formation. This is where I have disagreed with Corki.

Now maybe it really is too late to save Catholic schools. Maybe they are already in a death spiral in which apostized parents don’t push for better faith formation and thus goes the next generation. And to add to the dead weight, we no longer have an abundance of cheap labor as religious vocations are dying as well.

It’s a pickle.

No!

Many Catholic schools do an awesome job of forming kids in the faith. Many do not. Yet, even in the schools that do not do a good job, those kids are still receiving the sacraments, they still receive confession, they still learn something about God–take them out of that school and they will recieve none of that–and even a little bit of Grace is better than none.

Instead, we have to educate Catholic parents to place pressure on their local Catholic schools to do a better job of forming their children.

BTW, the USA is now a mission field that is quite large. There is an awful lot of work to do, and few workers to do it all. Yet, recall the many accounts from the Bible in which people fell away from God–not all accounts ended badly–sometimes people did turn back to God. That is where we are now, we need to convince this secular-pagan culture to turn back to God. It won’t be easy; however, God has us here in this time for a reason.

We need to embrace this task with genuine joy, because souls are counting on us!

Take care!

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

BTW, the USA is now a mission field that is quite large. There is an awful lot of work to do, and few workers to do it all.

I find it hard to argue that USA is a better mission field than some third world country. There is much to be said for going after the low hanging fruit and it’s much easier to make a difference in places where people are living in poverty.

That’s why I don’t think Catholic schools can survive without radical change. It may well be that they survived before only because they had this source of cheap labor that other private schools lacked. Without that advantage they simply cannot compete.

 

[irishpatrick]

I find it hard to argue that USA is a better mission field than some third world country. There is much to be said for going after the low hanging fruit and it’s much easier to make a difference in places where people are living in poverty.

That’s why I don’t think Catholic schools can survive without radical change. It may well be that they survived before only because they had this source of cheap labor that other private schools lacked. Without that advantage they simply cannot compete.

The USA has about 330,00,000 citizens. Of that total, I guess that 280,000,000 are not Christians or are in some form of apostasy. That is a huge number. So, there should not be a competitive thought between third world countries and the USA, they both are mission fields.

Once there was an older woman from a European village who visited the USA. At her departure she was asked about her trip here. She said, “the United States is a wonderful place, but I do not see how anyone can keep their faith in such a place…people in the USA want for nothing, they feel secure and they feel as if they do not need God.”

Therefore, in many ways USA Catholics/Christians have challenges that others do not have. They have the faith, yet they throw it aside for their own gods and their own idols. In a land of plenty, there is plenty of need for faith.

 

[JimG]

If Catholic schools are failiing on the faith formation (which we agree) then they should all be closed down.

But to get back into the game they must offer a competitive academic experience to complement a better faith formation. This is where I have disagreed with Corki.

Now maybe it really is too late to save Catholic schools. Maybe they are already in a death spiral in which apostized parents don’t push for better faith formation and thus goes the next generation. And to add to the dead weight, we no longer have an abundance of cheap labor as religious vocations are dying as well. And my converstions with religious educators leads me to believe that they generally regard poor countries to be a more urgent calling, and reasonably so.

It’s a pickle.

Why should all Catholic schools be closed down if some are failing on faith formation??

The Catholic schools in my area are not failing on faith formation, neither are they failing on academics. They outperform public schools. In no way would we consider closing them down.

I cannot speak for Catholic schools throughout the nation, but in my experience they do better both at faith formation and at education than most public schools. And in my diocese, if a family tithes to the parish, there is no tuition.

Now, if one wants to go back a few decades, in the period following Vatican II, there was a decline in catechesis. Children were not being taught the Faith; they were being taught to feel good about themselves and to be nice. Around here, that crisis is long past, and has been for a long time. Catholic education is more vibrant and more effective than ever.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

You are just flat wrong about Catholic schools (in a general sense). They typically outperform public schools by a very significant margin. Perhaps the public school your kids attend is different than most public schools, yet in general public schools cannot touch the academic performance of most Catholic schools.

Yes, the education at public elementary schools in my area are better than the Catholic schools in my area. In fact, it’s so obvious it’s not even worth discussing.

 

[irishpatrick]

Why should all Catholic schools be closed down if some are failing on faith formation??

The Catholic schools in my area are not failing on faith formation, neither are they failing on academics. They outperform public schools. In no way would we consider closing them down.

I cannot speak for Catholic schools throughout the nation, but in my experience they do better both at faith formation and at education than most public schools. And in my diocese, if a family tithes to the parish, there is no tuition.

Now, if one wants to go back a few decades, in the period following Vatican II, there was a decline in catechesis. Children were not being taught the Faith; they were being taught to feel good about themselves and to be nice. Around here, that crisis is long past, and has been for a long time. Catholic education is more vibrant and more effective than ever.

The tithing point is quite interesting. How does the parish know that you are tithing? It would seem to me that is a very good way to go. If a family earns 100K, then their total annual giving would be 10k, and that would cover the schooling and parish needs, correct?

Can you imagine where we’d be if every Catholic tithed? Problem solved.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The USA has about 330,00,000 citizens. Of that total, I guess that 280,000,000 are not Christians or are in some form of apostasy. That is a huge number. So, there should not be a competitive thought between third world countries and the USA, they both are mission fields.

Once there was an older woman from a European village who visited the USA. At her departure she was asked about her trip here. She said, “the United States is a wonderful place, but I do not see how anyone can keep their faith in such a place…people in the USA want for nothing, they feel secure and they feel as if they do not need God.”

Therefore, in many ways USA Catholics/Christians have challenges that others do not have. They have the faith, yet they throw it aside for their own gods and their own idols. In a land of plenty, there is plenty of need for faith.

With all due respect to this woman, I don’t buy this as an excuse. If people think they only need God when things are bad then they must believe themselves to be immortal.

It is certainly true that wealth and abundance present different challenges than do scarcity and poverty but they also provide resources to meet challenges. The average person today has much more time for contemplation than his medieval counterpart who left that business to monks.

The Church must confront a new set of challenges in the modern world that has not been prepared for by past experience.

 

[CradleJourney]

Yet, even in the schools that do not do a good job, those kids are still receiving the sacraments, they still receive confession, they still learn something about God–take them out of that school and they will recieve none of that–and even a little bit of Grace is better than none.

I see.

Glad to know my children do not receive any of the sacraments nor apparently do they learn even a little about God, - and do not get even a little bit of Grace. (heavy sarcasm there in case you missed it)

I’ve extensive knowledge of both the local public schools and the Catholic ones. Based on a careful study of the costs (both financial and otherwise) of each compared to the benefits, I feel I am making the best decision by having my children attend the public school.

I’d list the factors involved in my decision, but I feel your mind is pretty much already made up on the matter.

While I disagree with you, I do appreciate your sincerity and desire for what is best for our children and our faith. Perhaps you could find a role in which you could volunteer in those areas if you are not already doing so?

Peace.

 

[irishpatrick]

With all due respect to this woman, I don’t buy this as an excuse. If people think they only need God when things are bad then they must believe themselves to be immortal.

It is certainly true that wealth and abundance present different challenges than do scarcity and poverty but they also provide resources to meet challenges. The average person today has much more time for contemplation than his medieval counterpart who left that business to monks.

The Church must confront a new set of challenges in the modern world that has not been prepared for by past experience.

The point is simple. Prosperity often breeds laziness in faith.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Again, stop lying about Catholic schools. In studies, it is found that Catholic students score higher on Sat’s and on their ACT’s, than do public school students…again, not a guess, these are facts.

I would expect that. Why? What happens with out-of-control students in Catholic School? Simple: they get expelled.

Source: My friend who is a director in a well-respected Catholic High School. In fact, that is one of the reasons he likes working there. He doesn’t have to put up with these abusive students, and can expel them. Where do they end up? Public schools.

Take the underperforming students out of the statistics, and put them in the other statistics that your comparing them to, and what do you think happens to those statistics, all other factors being equal?

I’d be willing to compare any of my children to Catholic school kids in terms of academics in my area. They’re brilliant, and we are doing what we believe is best for them.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Why should all Catholic schools be closed down if some are failing on faith formation??

Of course, that is what I mean. A simpler way to put it is let the failing schools fail.

The Catholic schools in my area are not failing on faith formation, neither are they failing on academics. They outperform public schools. In no way would we consider closing them down.

I cannot speak for Catholic schools throughout the nation, but in my experience they do better both at faith formation and at education than most public schools. And in my diocese, if a family tithes to the parish, there is no tuition.

I just don’t understand why you and IrishPatric insist on comparing Catholic schools to public schools. That’s like saying, this perrier is better than that tap water.

I’d love to see public education abolished but in the mean time, it remains a “free” alternative.

The real question is how Catholic shools compare in the market where parents are willing to pay a tuition, especially with the dearth of religious teachers.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The point is simple. Prosperity often breeds laziness in faith.

I’ve herad it. I don’t buy it. It strike my ears as an excuse and a poor one at that.

I think repeating it only serves to obscure the truth and discourage a more serious search for solutions.

 

[irishpatrick]

I see.

Glad to know my children do not receive any of the sacraments nor apparently do they learn even a little about God, - and do not get even a little bit of Grace. (heavy sarcasm there in case you missed it)

I’ve extensive knowledge of both the local public schools and the Catholic ones. Based on a careful study of the costs (both financial and otherwise) of each compared to the benefits, I feel I am making the best decision by having my children attend the public school.

I’d list the factors involved in my decision, but I feel your mind is pretty much already made up on the matter.

While I disagree with you, I do appreciate your sincerity and desire for what is best for our children and our faith. Perhaps you could find a role in which you could volunteer in those areas if you are not already doing so?

Peace.

I got the sarcasm. Thank you for that.

As I stated before, parents have a right to make these choices, and if you are covering all faith issues in depth with your children, then I applaud you. The truth is, most Catholic parents do not cover that hardly at all, so if you are, that is toy your great credit.

The bottom line is, Catholic schools do outperform public schools in academics, it is simply not debatable…the national statistics reveal those truths–and it is NOT close. The Department of Education (not exactly a friend of private schools) releases the data and it shows that Catholic schools swamp public schools…not real contest actually. Go here:

cnsnews.com/blog/terence-p-jeffrey/department-education-catholic-schools-beat-public-schools

BTW, confession rates and Mass attendance rates are incredibly low–so it is not a stretch to say most Catholic parents do not bother insuring their kids receive the sacraments on a regular basis, though I am happy your kids do.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I’d list the factors involved in my decision, but I feel your mind is pretty much already made up on the matter.

I’d be curious to hear your reasons. I can guess but I don’t want to do that.