Priests more into psychology than Jesus..

[Fran65]

I think the case of genuine, biological mental disorder is more rare than most make it out to be. .

Why do you think this? Given the well documented success of many psychiatric drugs for most of those with mental illness, which suggests a biological basis, I’m not sure why you think ‘genuine’ mental illness is ‘rare’. Other disorders of the organs and tissues are not rare, for example, heart disease, asthma, eczma, headaches, back pain etc , so why would disorders of the nervous system be rare? God made us body and soul, we live in a fallen world, our bodies will fail. often mental illness looks willful or chosen, I’m thinking of Anorexia Nervosa, for example, but the reality is that there is no choice once the person loses touch with reality.

…These people need help …

I have a reluctance to use this type of formula. People with mental illness are us, and we all need help. Referring to them as ‘these people’ creates an impression of ‘other’ where actually, these people are just people, like everyone else.

I’m not saying the tendency to repress or to rescind is beneficial holistically. I am saying that it is beneficial from their point-of-view because there is some other thing that they think they most avoid.

I agree, except I would say that this is the case for some, not all people with these types of difficulties.

Its clear that we do agree on some things and differ in our opinion on others. And that’s okay. Like you I’ve worked with people with mental health difficulties and have worked in psychiatric units too. People differ very, very, markedly and far more than diagnostic criteria suggest.

You might be interested in book called ‘The Myth of Neurosis’, which makes a similar argument to yours. R.D. Laing also has some similarities, as does Thomas Szasz.
God Bless
Karen

 

[strugglingalong]

Why do you think this? Given the well documented success of many psychiatric drugs for most of those with mental illness, which suggests a biological basis, I’m not sure why you think ‘genuine’ mental illness is ‘rare’. Other disorders of the organs and tissues are not rare, for example, heart disease, asthma, eczma, headaches, back pain etc , so why would disorders of the nervous system be rare? God made us body and soul, we live in a fallen world, our bodies will fail. often mental illness looks willful or chosen, I’m thinking of Anorexia Nervosa, for example, but the reality is that there is no choice once the person loses touch with reality.

But what is a “documented success”? Someone who now no longer appears depressed even though their emotions are entirely muted and they are essential numb?

I have a reluctance to use this type of formula. People with mental illness are us, and we all need help. Referring to them as ‘these people’ creates an impression of ‘other’ where actually, these people are just people, like everyone else.

I didn’t mean “these people” as in sort people other than I. I meant it as “these people” as in this specific group of people of which we are talking about. It was not meant to isolate them or as if they are “other.” The place I lived and worked focused on how we’re the same just we each have our own gifts and disorders.

You might be interested in book called ‘The Myth of Neurosis’, which makes a similar argument to yours. R.D. Laing also has some similarities, as does Thomas Szasz.
God Bless
Karen

I have Szasz’s Myth of Mental Illness. I’ve just never read it yet. Thanks for the suggestions!

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[EasterJoy]

Some general points (which may or may not have anything to do with distracted’s case)

1. An increasing prevalence of mental illness does not indicate that changes diagnosis are solely the cause. There is an increasing incidence of stress-related injuries to the body, as well, such as carpal tunnel syndrome and the like. We are putting mental and physical stresses on ourselves that are unlike the stresses of the past.
2. That someone is in need of professional help for mental health issues does not mean that the professional help they have actually been getting is ever going to be beneficial. There is a third way between “do what your doctor tells you to” and “your problem isn’t medical”. That is “find a different doctor” or just “find a different solution.” This applies to confessors, as well. There is no one physician or confessor that is right for everyone. It is not necessary to make a doctor or priest out to be bad at what they do in order to decide to go elsewhere for the help we need. That they don’t work for us is sufficient reason.
3. Our troubles don’t fit in little boxes marked “Physical”, “Mental”, “Spiritual” and so on. There are many difficulties which are legitimate psychiatric conditions which may improve greatly, sometimes completely, from a combination of improved physical and spiritual care. Becoming paralyzed from the neck down can lead to depression or a spiritual awakening, or both. Sin can lead to sickness (and often does). We’re all one piece.
4. Most of our problems have more than one general solution that could work. There is, so to speak, more than one way to skin a cat. It is up to us to choose among possible solutions for which one is for us. It is OK to try several wrong choices before arriving at something that works. It may even be a spiritual handicap to have made the “correct” choice the first time for too many times in a row. Wandering in the desert has its own rewards.
5. People are terrible at deciding what is right for them, but in the end, they are far better judges than anyone else. These are strictly my opinions, but I think a wise person seeks and considers outside opinions: “The wise man loves correction.” I think that wise outsiders give advice that is asked for, but leave the decision to the one who actually has the problem. Everyone makes mistakes, because everyone is human. It is a fact or life that we make and must be responsible for our own choices, even when the choice is obedience or disobedience to God. You can’t choose anyone else’s way in or out of Heaven, except your own. It is fruitless to try.
6. If you seek God’s will in your life and seek forgiveness when you sin, you are bullet-proof. You might suffer, you may even make some stupid mistakes, but God will not let any assault by death win over you in the end. No matter who rejects you or approves of you, this is what is most important: God is slow to anger, quick to forgive, and always faithful. His love for you is everlasting. No one’s approval or disapproval is more important than that. That is the main thing.

 

[distracted]

In fact, many, many mentally ill people are very religious, some even fanatically religious. The Church can be a haven for people with mental illness.

CAN BE???

I am beginning to wonder if ALL catholics are mental…

But you know… Now that i think about it…

Non-catholics are often worse… (and scarier…) Long stroy what i mean…

as i said before, we are all “crazy” because we are all sinners…

and the sad thing is… people’s rudeness is getting worse every passing day… People just don’t care how they speak to one another anymore… They just use & abuse each other

the bible says that the devil has come down hard on the world because he knows he has such a short time… and that in the last days, becaue of sin, the love of mnay will grow cold… That has certainly happened…

How are we going to live in Heaven with each other when we can’t even live with each other here below??

Who knows… maybe that’s why some people end up in (choose) Hell. When they meet St. Peter at the Pearly Gates, and find out that so-and-so is in Heaven… they just can’t abide the thought of living with that person… so they pitch themselves into the firey abyss…

 

[distracted]

How do you know your experiences in life have been so much more terrible than anyone else’s who has posted here? I don’t mean to diminish your trials. I am sure to you they were/are terrible. ng.

for one thing, i never said anyone else’s sufferings or trials were worse than my own… Posters here surely like to put words in others’ mouths…

and the worst suffering of all is knowing that your sins have caused the suffering (to you & to others)… so i dare say i have suffered every bit as much as anyone else…

You have no clue how much anyone has had to deal with any more than anyone else…

 

[dessert]

When people let us down, God steps in… if we let Him…& sometimes even when we don’t… God is love…

I prefer to go to Him about things… People always disappoint… not because i expect them to be perfect or anything… but i HAVe been through things most people have not been through… not even close… so i have just accepted my “alone-ness”… and my unique circumstances, unique past experiences, etc… Sometimes i think all this seeking help form counselors (etc) is just a way of not really accepting things as they are… or something…

But… God works through people, we are His hands and His feet and speak what He wants us to others see. Otherewise no need for apostles.
It is hard to forget the hurts of the past, I’m sorry that you have been through so much.

 

[dessert]

CAN BE???

I am beginning to wonder if ALL catholics are mental…

But you know… Now that i think about it…

Non-catholics are often worse… (and scarier…) Long stroy what i mean…

as i said before, we are all “crazy” because we are all sinners…

and the sad thing is… people’s rudeness is getting worse every passing day… People just don’t care how they speak to one another anymore… They just use & abuse each other

the bible says that the devil has come down hard on the world because he knows he has such a short time… and that in the last days, becaue of sin, the love of mnay will grow cold… That has certainly happened…

How are we going to live in Heaven with each other when we can’t even live with each other here below??

Who knows… maybe that’s why some people end up in (choose) Hell. When they meet St. Peter at the Pearly Gates, and find out that so-and-so is in Heaven… they just can’t abide the thought of living with that person… so they pitch themselves into the firey abyss…

OK Who has hurt you and what happened, it would help to talk about it.

 

[distracted]

But… God works through people, we are His hands and His feet and speak what He wants us to others see. Otherewise no need for apostles.
It is hard to forget the hurts of the past, I’m sorry that you have been through so much.

i would love nothing better than to have helping, loving people in my life… & i have tried to get that to happen for me… to no avail… I think people can sense that i have been through something “weird” or whatever… I am “strange” because of what i have been through / how it has “formed” me… etc… As an example (?): an extrovert does not change into an introvert overnight if he has been one all his life… and vice versa… If one has had to deal with something all his life… something abnormal (etc)… the person is affected by that… virtually all his life. He mayget “better”… proably will… time alone can heal things… but he will never be something totally different than what he has always been… or at least its highly unlikely…

Anyway… i have accepted myself as i am… but that doesn’t mean others are going to do the same…

 

[distracted]

OK Who has hurt you and what happened, it would help to talk about it.

who says?

 

[dessert]

i would love nothing better than to have helping, loving people in my life… & i have tried to get that to happen for me… to no avail… I think people can sense that i have been through something “weird” or whatever… I am “strange” because of what i have been through / how it has “formed” me… etc… As an example (?): an extrovert does not change into an introvert overnight if he has been one all his life… and vice versa… If one has had to deal with something all his life… something abnormal (etc)… the person is affected by that… virtually all his life. He mayget “better”… proably will… time alone can heal things… but he will never be something totally different than what he has always been… or at least its highly unlikely…

Anyway… i have accepted myself as i am… but that doesn’t mean others are going to do the same…

We can change I imagine you have heard this before maybe many times. In order for this to happen I believe our circumstances have to change. Our surroundings, the (name removed by moderator)ut from we hear, from people (not your popular media) music, our own voice when speaking good healthy prayers, did you know that a prayer is a kind of plea? I think you have stated that our faith is not based on what others think of us or say about us. Did you know that people are going to hate you? Did you know that God formed you perfect? And you are on a journey towards I reiterate **towards **holiness, each day God will show you the next wonderful link on how to bring yourself closer to Him. Look up!

 

[dessert]

who says?

OK if you don’t want to; but that is following the crowd . Do you want to be a crowd follower?

 

[EasterJoy]

Who knows… maybe that’s why some people end up in (choose) Hell. When they meet St. Peter at the Pearly Gates, and find out that so-and-so is in Heaven… they just can’t abide the thought of living with that person… so they pitch themselves into the firey abyss…

I have told my kids that if a person doesn’t know how to get along with other people, there is no set of circumstances that will be Heaven for them, and whatever else Purgatory is, it is at least the finishing of that painful process of letting go of the damage sin has done to us and giving up the sinful behaviors we have grown to like in favor of forgiveness and the other habits of heart that actually work.

Whatever else Hell is, it is at least the deep and real suffering that always follows when we reject what works (also known as God’s laws) in favor of what will never work. There are a lot of people in this life who can vouch for that.

God is no arbitrary law-giver. His laws are love and life.
Virtue is the most practical and the most healthy thing in the world.

 

[EasterJoy]

OK Who has hurt you and what happened, it would help to talk about it.

That talking might well help does not imply that opening up to us is what is called for.

Of course, if you would like to choose open up to us about your hurts, then that would certainly be OK…

 

[elts1956]

for one thing, i never said anyone else’s sufferings or trials were worse than my own… Posters here surely like to put words in others’ mouths…

and the worst suffering of all is knowing that your sins have caused the suffering (to you & to others)… so i dare say i have suffered every bit as much as anyone else…

You have no clue how much anyone has had to deal with any more than anyone else…

What is said is that EVERYONE’S suffering is relative to how the individual can deal with it. Re read my post and try to understand.

 

[elts1956]

for one thing, i never said anyone else’s sufferings or trials were worse than my own… Posters here surely like to put words in others’ mouths…

and the worst suffering of all is knowing that your sins have caused the suffering (to you & to others)… so i dare say i have suffered every bit as much as anyone else…

You have no clue how much anyone has had to deal with any more than anyone else…

We can change I imagine you have heard this before maybe many times. In order for this to happen I believe our circumstances have to change. Our surroundings, the (name removed by moderator)ut from we hear, from people (not your popular media) music, our own voice when speaking good healthy prayers, did you know that a prayer is a kind of plea? I think you have stated that our faith is not based on what others think of us or say about us. Did you know that people are going to hate you? Did you know that God formed you perfect? And you are on a journey towards I reiterate **towards **holiness, each day God will show you the next wonderful link on how to bring yourself closer to Him. Look up!

Personally, I cannot be around negative people for long periods of time. I do much better with folks who have a positive attitude. Not the rah rah pull yourself up by the bootstraps kind, but gentle, loving people who believe in enjoying life.

 

[distracted]

I have told my kids that if a person doesn’t know how to get along with other people, there is no set of circumstances that will be Heaven for them, and whatever else Purgatory is, it is at least the finishing of that painful process of letting go of the damage sin has done to us and giving up the sinful behaviors we have grown to like in favor of forgiveness and the other habits of heart that actually work…

i must be on my way to Hell… I don’t get along with anyone… for very long. Ok, that’s not true… I try to get along but when people find out i am a committed, enthusiastic, evangelistic Catholic, they despise me… and then i tend to despise them… but i keep this sentiment to myself & try to be like Jesus (sometimes ) and well… as Jesus said, “YOu will be hated by all because of Him”. I sometimes feel that Scripture was written only for me… doesn’t seem like anyone else in the world is hated by all… but then… i don’t know everyone else in the world…

anyway… i had something else to say but forgot… :whacky:

 

[distracted]

Yes actually I have spent time in a psychiatric ward as well as working with those with mental illness. Some do have legitimate mental illness but I think the case of genuine, biological mental disorder is more rare than most make it out to be.

m.

There is a book called The Myth of Mental Illness. I never read the whole thing and now can’t find it (but have to admit haven’t been looking 4 it lately)…

Do you know about that?

To me, the title says it all… I believe, as you say, that there are not many true cases of “mental illness”…(depending on how you define that, i guess)…

a lot of what is called “mental” is really emotional… (etc)

If all of us were just raised by healthy parents, we would all be normal… but we would still be sinners… and so… it aint gonna hppen… and even healthy parents are sinners… so therefore, not so healthy after all…

:whacky:

 

[strugglingalong]

There is a book called The Myth of Mental Illness. I never read the whole thing and now can’t find it (but have to admit haven’t been looking 4 it lately)…

Do you know about that?

To me, the title says it all… I believe, as you say, that there are not many true cases of “mental illness”…(depending on how you define that, i guess)…

a lot of what is called “mental” is really emotional… (etc)

If all of us were just raised by healthy parents, we would all be normal… but we would still be sinners… and so… it aint gonna hppen… and even healthy parents are sinners… so therefore, not so healthy after all…

:whacky:

Yes. I have the book but have never read it. I do think a lot of what is being called mental illness is really an emotional or spiritual or moral problem. That is why I just read an article the other day of a psychiatrist saying we should have “moral steroids” whereby a drug could make someone nicer or enhanced in some moral way. They see morality as biological so why not make a moral drug? That shows the underlying assumption that any disturbance is biological. Here’s the study: digitaljournal.com/article/259626/Psychiatrist_Gandhi_Pills_and_Moral_Performance_Enhancers_Can_Help_Patients

Also, people will hate you for loving Christ. The world will hate you and that is in fact a good sign that you are following Christ. The key though is, in response, to love those who hate you - which requires much grace for sure.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

Actually if you read that article I posted above, the author states that already psychotropic drugs are being used “to improve conduct,” something he refers to as “a subtle form of moral assistance.” Now as soon as we come to the point where we say that morality can be affected by biology and that drugs can therefore enhance that morality we’re in trouble. That is the way, I think, the majority of psychiatrists view mental illness: as behavior, and even morality, that is based on biology. This paper betrays that logic. But I can’t see how we as Christians can say that morality can be affected because of mental illness. A mental illness may make it more difficult for someone to be moral. They may suffer more. But God has given each person the faculties for morality (even though we need grace!) and the idea that some people are immoral because of a mental illness that needs a drug is very wrong, if you ask me.

And I can’t help but hear the implicit cry of evolution that was a key component to the “fathers” of psychiatry: we must evolve and perfect ourselves by these means. They were all infected with ideas from the Enlightenment and from Darwin. They thought, like many others, that religion one day would end because of the advances of science and medicine. Why need God when you can take a pill to be more moral? I can’t avoid seeing that same logic in the study posted. I hardly think this man is alone.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[distracted]

Also, people will hate you for loving Christ. The world will hate you and that is in fact a good sign that you are following Christ. The key though is, in response, to love those who hate you - which requires much grace for sure.

Pax Christi tecum.

For sure…

It is not hard loving people… i’ve been doing that all my life… (except i am not good at showing love… actually doing things for others… ) but on Sunday, the scripture reading @ Mass was about loving others as we love ourselves…

Yikes! who does that??? No one… that i know of… except the saints and they struggled with it as well… (some of them did anyway…

I think St. anthony & others died at such a young age… they didn’t have time to learn how evil people can be… )