Private Revelations

[Vimy_Ridge]

Traditional Catholics usually take an interest in private revelations. I was wondering if anyone here considers themself traditional yet pays no attention to these messages given to others.

 

[Victorious]

I prefer traditional Catholicism, and I am not interested in any alleged private revelations that are not approved by the Church.

 

[The_Reginator]

I’ve gleaned this from the Traditional Catholics I know.
The only personal revelations that are of any value are those approved by the Church – once approved they become part of Tradition. (That’s my personal understanding, please correct me if I misspoke.)

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

I prefer traditional Catholicism, and I am not interested in any alleged private revelations that are not approved by the Church.

Traditional Catholicism and Church approved private revelations seem to go hand in hand.

 

[Victorious]

I’ve gleaned this from the Traditional Catholics I know.
The only personal revelations that are of any value are those approved by the Church – once approved they become part of Tradition. (That’s my personal understanding, please correct me if I misspoke.)

If by Tradition with a capital “T” you mean “part of the deposit of faith,” which all Catholics are bound to believe, this is not true. Private revelations are not part of the deposit of faith.

Traditional Catholicism and Church approved private revelations seem to go hand in hand.

I know some traditional-minded Catholics (or at least those who profess to be) who go in for all kinds of “messages,” “seers,” etc. so I thought I’d better make a distinction.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

I know some traditional-minded Catholics (or at least those who profess to be) who go in for all kinds of “messages,” “seers,” etc. so I thought I’d better make a distinction.

I was kinda like that years ago, a bit too interested in that sort of thing.

 

[hockeyfighter21]

I attend a traditional mass community staffed by the FSSP and begun by our bishop. i pay no or very little attention to private revelations, both deemed worthy of belief or otherwise. a private revelation adds nothing to the deposit of faith, as said by the magisterium of the catholic church. i have never been much into fatima, guadalupe or any of the others and it is not required to believe in them to be a member in full standing with the catholic church. the church never says that they absolutely happened, it just permits the faithful to follow ones that they approve worthy of belief.

 

[Victorious]

a private revelation adds nothing to the deposit of faith, as said by the magisterium of the catholic church.

But this has nothing to do with whether a legitimate private revelation is worthwhile: this has to do with the fact that public revelation is complete. Anything that purports to add to it is prima facie bogus.

But although public revelation is complete, it has not all been made explicit, nor will we ever fully plumb its depths this side of the Second Coming (and maybe not even then). We are given private revelations for our aid and comfort. And although these private revelations are not binding on us, when they have been declared worthy of belief (I doubt you will ever get Pope Benedict to hedge on whether Guadalupe or Fatima or Lourdes really happened), we have to ask ourselves how prudent it is to ignore them.

 

[Isaiah_41]

Traditional Catholics usually take an interest in private revelations. I was wondering if anyone here considers themself traditional yet pays no attention to these messages given to others.

If The Vatican gives it’s ‘bonafides’ to the revelation, then I accept it. Lourdes, Fatima…etc.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Traditional Catholics usually take an interest in private revelations. I was wondering if anyone here considers themself traditional yet pays no attention to these messages given to others.

To me there are two types of “private” revelations. The “public” revelation closed with Christ, and the record of His life, death and resurrection in Scripture. To quote CS Lewis via Screwape, “the documents say what they say and cannot be changed.”

But private revelations in my opinion cover two grounds - there are those which are approved by the church such as Mary at Lourdes, Fatima, Akita etc. And there are those which are given to individuals, by a number of different means - personal visions, apparitions, advise by other Christians, Scripture verses which jump out at you and so on.

In the case of the church approved revelations, I don’t really have any reason to doubt them. But of all the apparitions of Mary, the only three that have much personal appeal to me are Lourdes, Fatima and Akita. I accept the others but don’t care much about them, since I regard the three I’ve quoted as having the most import.

In the case of personal revelations, I believe I’ve had a number of my own. But while I’m prepared to discuss them, I also don’t expect anyone else to necessarily believe them.

And I’m well aware of demonic counterfeits. I’ve had my share of those too.

What I don’t agree with are those who say God has nothing more to say to anybody outside Scripture. God is alive and well, and any time He wants to say something personal to somebody, He will. The main danger is the risk of demonic counterfeit.

 

[hockeyfighter21]

quoted by Victorious: “we have to ask ourselves how prudent it is to ignore them.” It is perfectly fine to ignore them. where and when throughout catholic church dogma in the history of the church has the church asked whether it is prudent or not to ignore a private revelation??? the private revelations of Mary have not added any dogma. it is perfectly fine to ignore them. why is it that some people try to make it seem necessary to believe in fatima, guadelupe, or lourdes??? i simply do not have to believe in them, and the magesterium of the church has not taught anything contrary to that as a dogma!!! and there is nothing wrong in my saying so as a traditional catholic. I profess the Apostles Creed. I worship God alone. I believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. I believe that Mary is the greatest of the saints and I believe in her most wonderful intercessions for us. All of these things that I just professed are independent of private revelation. I believe that abortion, contraception, and homosexual activity is gravely sinful. I believe that communism and socialism are wrong. I believe that the world is in moral decay. I received none of this by private revelation. I received it from public revelation and the magesterium of the Catholic Church as taught throughout the ages.

 

[Victorious]

quoted by Victorious: “we have to ask ourselves how prudent it is to ignore them.” It is perfectly fine to ignore them. where and when throughout catholic church dogma in the history of the church has the church asked whether it is prudent or not to ignore a private revelation??? the private revelations of Mary have not added any dogma. it is perfectly fine to ignore them.

I guess whether it’s “perfectly fine” to ignore them (as distinguished from “permissible” to ignore them) depends on the reason for ignoring them. If a person ignores legitimate private revelations, does he do so out of love for the truth? Or does he do so just because he can, in order to assert what he believes to be his right? Or is he being careful not to do more than the absolute bare minimum necessary to be a Catholic? Just because we can do something, doesn’t mean we should do it; nor does it follow that the thing is praiseworthy, just because it is permissible.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

If The Vatican gives it’s ‘bonafides’ to the revelation, then I accept it. Lourdes, Fatima…etc.

I’m no expert on Fatima but from what I’ve heard those children were told that the vast majority of souls will end up in hell literally burning in fire, bodies piled one upon another unable to move for all eternity. In all honesty whenever I hear or read about many visions and miracles like the stigmata, the kind where people recieve terrifying messages and suffer painful experiences my deepest instinct tells me that this cannot come from a good God but only from a demonic entity. Does anyone else feel this way?

 

[Victorious]

I’m no expert on Fatima but from what I’ve heard those children were told that the vast majority of souls will end up in hell literally burning in fire, bodies piled one upon another unable to move for all eternity. In all honesty whenever I hear or read about many visions and miracles like the stigmata, the kind where people recieve terrifying messages and suffer painful experiences my deepest instinct tells me that this cannot come from a good God but only from a demonic entity. Does anyone else feel this way?

No. These are warnings from a compassionate God Who wants us to avoid hell. How are you going to be sufficiently motivated to avoid hell unless you are convinced of its horrors?

May I recommend that you educate yourself on the Christian view of suffering? A good starting point would be St. Thomas More’s Dialogue of Comfort against Tribulation, written by him while he was in prison awaiting execution. (Get the Gottschalk translation, published by Scepter.)

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

I think the church has deemed Fatima “worthy of belief”. I don’t think it is required that all Catholics accept that a miracle happened. Correct me if I am wrong. As for the three children seeing hell, and the “sun miracle”…I’m really on the fence. I really hope its true, but I’m not sure…I wasn’t there.

The alternative explanations I’ve found lacking. Mass hallucination is actually possible with respect to the sun miracle, but foreknowledge of a mass hallucination isn’t, or maybe it is, just highly unlikely. I ultimately reject this hypothesis…too many people there.

It could have been a scam for the purposes of tourism. I don’t really buy this one either since I don’t believe little shepard girls are capable of mass conspiracy.

The last hypothesis, sun staring, I actually find likely. If you stare at the sun for too long…lots of crazy things will happen, not to mention it’s bad for your retina.

That being said a solid devotion to the rosary is always great. If Fatima inspires you to do it, great, but there were many popes who advocated devotion before Fatima.

 

[Victorious]

The alternative explanations I’ve found lacking. Mass hallucination is actually possible with respect to the sun miracle, but foreknowledge of a mass hallucination isn’t, or maybe it is, just highly unlikely. I ultimately reject this hypothesis…too many people there.

The miracle was seen more than 30 miles away from the Cova da Iria.

 

[nickybr38]

I’m no expert on Fatima but from what I’ve heard those children were told that the vast majority of souls will end up in hell literally burning in fire, bodies piled one upon another unable to move for all eternity. In all honesty whenever I hear or read about many visions and miracles like the stigmata, the kind where people recieve terrifying messages and suffer painful experiences my deepest instinct tells me that this cannot come from a good God but only from a demonic entity. Does anyone else feel this way?

At times, yes.

I was reading about a private revelation the other day in which the children were shown such terrible things that some of them collapsed and some ended up in comas… That hardly seems the action of a compassionate, loving God.

You would think being glimpsed a piece of heaven would be just as motivating as being shown hell. Furthermore it seems to me that terrifying people by showing them hell seems almost… bullying. But I don’t completely understand suffering so my view may be slightly off skew.

Sometimes I think the obsession with private revelations comes with an unhealthy desire to know the future. Didn’t our Father tell us: Worry not about tomorrow, it has enough worries of its own?

And in the OT weren’t His visions less… vivid? Revelations is one of the more ‘terrifying’ books of the Bible and yet even it isn’t as horrific as some of the private revelations I’ve glimpsed at (I’ve stopped reading private revelations, btw, but was curious about them when I first started my journey a scant two weeks ago ).

I just don’t know… so when it comes to private revelation I choose to leave that to God. I will focus on today and serving Him the best I can on this day and not worry about what’s coming. If the Holy Spirit guides me to a particular private revelation I will listen, otherwise I will leave those alone.

 

[hockeyfighter21]

With all due respect victorious, i dont feel the call of any particular private revelation for myself. as far as avoiding them and doing the absolute minimum to be a catholic, absolutely not, that has nothing to do with this discussion. i am not speaking for others. someone else may feel the call from God to have a particular liking to a certain approved apparition and that is fine. the purpose of the private revelation is a call to God. “Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” comes to mind. some people may need a message from a certain apparition in order to fulfill this call, however i have particular devotion to the church fathers and the scriptures as my focal point. i have a particular devotion to St. Paul and St. Antony of the desert. all i was saying is that i am a traditional catholic, i do not have a devotion to any private revelation, and i was just stating that it is not required for an individual to have a devotion, unless that person has actually witnessed the apparition, then it is required.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

At times, yes.

I was reading about a private revelation the other day in which the children were shown such terrible things that some of them collapsed and some ended up in comas… That hardly seems the action of a compassionate, loving God.

You would think being glimpsed a piece of heaven would be just as motivating as being shown hell. Furthermore it seems to me that terrifying people by showing them hell seems almost… bullying. But I don’t completely understand suffering so my view may be slightly off skew.

Sometimes I think the obsession with private revelations comes with an unhealthy desire to know the future. Didn’t our Father tell us: Worry not about tomorrow, it has enough worries of its own?

And in the OT weren’t His visions less… vivid? Revelations is one of the more ‘terrifying’ books of the Bible and yet even it isn’t as horrific as some of the private revelations I’ve glimpsed at (I’ve stopped reading private revelations, btw, but was curious about them when I first started my journey a scant two weeks ago ).

I just don’t know… so when it comes to private revelation I choose to leave that to God. I will focus on today and serving Him the best I can on this day and not worry about what’s coming. If the Holy Spirit guides me to a particular private revelation I will listen, otherwise I will leave those alone.

I agree with many of your points. Before I converted to Catholicism I had met an old man who played a major role in my conversion. He gave me a pamphlet about Padre Pio and his stigmata, I remember my first thought was how demonic this was. Over time I became desensitized to the many morbid supernatural events in the Catholic Church and thought they were from God. I no longer believe this, I’ve gone back to my initial gut reaction that all these things i.e. stigmata, bleeding statues, visions of hell, bloody hosts etc. are the work of evil spirits.

I’ve long considered the book of Revelation to be false. Any reputable and honest biblical scholar will tell you that it was written only for those living in 1st century and that it is a failed prophecy. Rev. 22:20, Jesus says “Surely I come quickly.” Two thousand years is not quickly … and also I don’t buy the one day thousand year argument.

If anyone wants to remain a sane Catholic I would suggest that they avoid all these things like the plague, if not you could end up tormented like poor Anneliese Michel who was decieved by evil spirits into thinking that she was suffering for God.

youtube.com/watch?v=x4n9vK0_mdk

 

[Victorious]

Before I converted to Catholicism I had met an old man who played a major role in my conversion. He gave me a pamphlet about Padre Pio and his stigmata, I remember my first thought was how demonic this was…I’ve gone back to my initial gut reaction that all these things i.e. stigmata, bleeding statues, visions of hell, bloody hosts etc. are the work of evil spirits…I’ve long considered the book of Revelation to be false…If anyone wants to remain a sane Catholic I would suggest that they avoid all these things like the plague…

Would that be as opposed to being a faithful Catholic?