Private Revelations

[Vimy_Ridge]

God ONLY wills the good for all of us. No soul is ever predestined for damnation. Yet Predestination is taught by the Catholic Church.

See Catechism: 600, 2012, 2782 and 2823.

Also, an excellent explanation of Predestination in Catholic teaching can be found in the archives of this forum.

You can’t find it because it’s not there. You have never been exposed to real Catholicism. You reject what you do not even know. God help the people who lied to you and taught you to believe lies, especially if they were priests.

Looks like CathFaith1 found it.

Would you accept this doctrine if it is really Catholic teaching, Victorious? You have given me the impression that you think it is a horrible doctrine too.

I couldn’t accept it. It was what made me leave the Church and reject Christianity.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I don’t call myself a Catholic or a Christian anymore. I do believe that spirits exist though but I am very suspicious of them. I like to think of Chuch buildings as being safe and sacred too but I’ve never heard that an evil spirit could not cause mischief in one.

I’ve never heard of a church that openly declared that Jesus was fictional, though I know that many mainline protestants downplay some biblical stories as being mythical. Lateley I have been thinking that the Gospels were a creation of the Romans who wanted to trick the Jews into following a pacifistic religion that would not rebel against the Roman Empire the way many militant Messianic Jews were doing in the first century.

So following that train of thought I would also have to assume that the book of Revelation is either a fraud given by men or possibly a deceptive spirit. Check out this link regarding the Second Coming … 2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/notcoming.shtml

The Gospels weren’t even written until well after Christ’s death. The Romans would have had a hard time persuading militant Jews to follow a dead man, since the militant Jews would have believed Christ had been executed for heresy and had not risen from the dead. It would be a complete waste of time, and in any case the Romans cared so little about Jewish religious thought they put a clown like Pontius Pilate in charge of the province.

On the one hand you’re saying they’d produce a crop of fictitious stories to lull the people to sleep (and not publish them until years after the event), and at the same time put in charge a brutal anti-Semitic governor who was guaranteed to provoke the Jews to violence.

 

[CathFaith1]

It was what made me leave the Church and reject Christianity.

You actually left the faith and reject Christianity over something you do not fully understand?

There will always be elements of faith that we cannot fully understand. But as we mature in faith, and most importantly, God’s grace we can begin to understand more. We’re not God.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

You actually left the faith and reject Christianity over something you do not fully understand?

There will always be elements of faith that we cannot fully understand. But as we mature in faith, and most importantly, God’s grace we can begin to understand more. We’re not God.

God is the ‘Great Mystery’ I cannot fully understand God but I accept this reality.

Now a man made or demon inspired doctrine that teaches me that many souls will suffer for eternity because of ‘original sin’ but a few get off because the ‘Bible God’ decides to spare them is pretty easy to understand. This doctrine makes God look evil, and saying you don’t get it changes nothing. It’s pretty cut and dried.

 

[Victorious]

Would you accept this doctrine if it is really Catholic teaching, Victorious? You have given me the impression that you think it is a horrible doctrine too.

It is a horrible doctrine. It is not a Catholic teaching. It is heresy. You have left the Catholic Church over a doctrine not attributable to the Catholic Church.

 

[CathFaith1]

Now a man made or demon inspired doctrine that teaches me that many souls will suffer for eternity because of ‘original sin’ but a few get off because the ‘Bible God’ decides to spare them is pretty easy to understand. This doctrine makes God look evil, and saying you don’t get it changes nothing. It’s pretty cut and dried.

It’s not cut and dry.

That’s not what the Catholic Church has ever taught.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

I agree with many of your points. Before I converted to Catholicism I had met an old man who played a major role in my conversion. He gave me a pamphlet about Padre Pio and his stigmata, I remember my first thought was how demonic this was. Over time I became desensitized to the many morbid supernatural events in the Catholic Church and thought they were from God. I no longer believe this, I’ve gone back to my initial gut reaction that all these things i.e. stigmata, bleeding statues, visions of hell, bloody hosts etc. are the work of evil spirits.

The crucifixion and scourging seemed pretty morbid, and yet that came from God. Rejection of private revelations based on morbidity alone, is insufficient grounds in my opinion.

I believe the book of Revelation was almost excluded from the cannon, according to Eusebius.

To be fair St.Augustine did espouse a form of predestination, but it was distinct from the Calvinist position, which was ripped and modified right from the Church Father. Augustine was a “soft-determinist” which means he believed in election but also free will.

As a side note, I do believe that Anneliese Michel was possessed. If you haven’t seen it already, I recommend the movie that was made in german called “Requiem”. I also recommend the book “Hostage to the Devil” by malachi martin. Not everything in the Catholic faith is sunshine and cartwheels unfortunately.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

God is the ‘Great Mystery’ I cannot fully understand God but I accept this reality.

Now a man made or demon inspired doctrine that teaches me that many souls will suffer for eternity because of ‘original sin’ but a few get off because the ‘Bible God’ decides to spare them is pretty easy to understand. This doctrine makes God look evil, and saying you don’t get it changes nothing. It’s pretty cut and dried.

People don’t suffer in hell because of ‘original sin’. They go to hell because of their own sin, by their own free will, and of their own volition.

It’s their choice.

 

[The_Reginator]

People don’t suffer in hell because of ‘original sin’. They go to hell because of their own sin, by their own free will, and of their own volition.

It’s their choice.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

It is a horrible doctrine. It is not a Catholic teaching. It is heresy. You have left the Catholic Church over a doctrine not attributable to the Catholic Church.

But as others here have pointed out the Church does teach it. This is how I understand it … God knew before anyone was created how they would react to His salvation plan, He knew that some would cooperate and others would not. Those who would cooperate are predestined before birth for Heaven and those who would reject His plan will end up in Hell where they will suffer for all eternity. So seeing as a good God would not want anyone to suffer for ever and ever why does He still allow those who will be damned to come into existence? Once again if any form of predestination is taught by the Church would you accept it?

It’s not cut and dry.

That’s not what the Catholic Church has ever taught.

Original Sin plays a part in humanitys fallen state and their need for salvation right? Many of the sins that could send you to hell are very common. Is missing Mass or using a condom really so evil that a person should suffer for all eternity with no hope that it will ever end. If God is so strict why doesn’t He just snuff out the soul. What good is served by endless torment?

The crucifixion and scourging seemed pretty morbid, and yet that came from God. Rejection of private revelations based on morbidity alone, is insufficient grounds in my opinion.

I believe the book of Revelation was almost excluded from the cannon, according to Eusebius.

To be fair St.Augustine did espouse a form of predestination, but it was distinct from the Calvinist position, which was ripped and modified right from the Church Father. Augustine was a “soft-determinist” which means he believed in election but also free will.

As a side note, I do believe that Anneliese Michel was possessed. If you haven’t seen it already, I recommend the movie that was made in german called “Requiem”. I also recommend the book “Hostage to the Devil” by malachi martin. Not everything in the Catholic faith is sunshine and cartwheels unfortunately.

It’s true that the Christian religion has many morbid elements to it. I just question why God would cause people to receive added pain and suffering (like the stigmata) when Christ already paid the price. But yeah Christianity and the bible are filled with gory violent images so I guess miracles of that nature would be consistent. Maybe Christianity itself is wholly demonic, I’ve often thought that to be honest.

People don’t suffer in hell because of ‘original sin’. They go to hell because of their own sin, by their own free will, and of their own volition.

It’s their choice.

I don’t think anyone would really choose eternal suffering. Theologians are just trying to let God of the hook here.

 

[Victorious]

But as others here have pointed out the Church does teach it. This is how I understand it … God knew before anyone was created how they would react to His salvation plan, He knew that some would cooperate and others would not. Those who would cooperate are predestined before birth for Heaven and those who would reject His plan will end up in Hell where they will suffer for all eternity. So seeing as a good God would not want anyone to suffer for ever and ever why does He still allow those who will be damned to come into existence? Once again if any form of predestination is taught by the Church would you accept it?

As far as I can detect, you are talking about predestination in the Calvinist sense. That is a heresy. You are confusing it with God’s foreknowledge. There is no causal relationship between God knowing an event will take place and the event. By knowing something will happen, God does not cause it to happen.

 

[roveau]

I’m glad to see that Vimy Ridge has sparked some spirited debate about Predestination… and lots of really useful material has emerged for us BUT this is a thread on Private Revelations.

I accept some of the more main stream Private Revelations but not on the same level as fundamental Church teaching, Scripture and the Gospels.

I have a problem though with any Private Revelation that purports to come from a private visitation of Our Lord, especially if it is then quoted in articles and books as being the words of Jesus Christ.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

As far as I can detect, you are talking about predestination in the Calvinist sense. That is a heresy. You are confusing it with God’s foreknowledge. There is no causal relationship between God knowing an event will take place and the event. By knowing something will happen, God does not cause it to happen.

Calvinist predestination (as far as I understand it) would involve a double predestination and I know the Church does not teach that. But I think we are splitting hairs now. I guess my problem is more concerning the nature of hell. I know the Church has no specific description of the nature of hell so that is not my concern,

But to get back to the topic of private revelations, the ones I’ve heard, like Fatima, do paint a horrific image of hell. These kind of images do not motivate me to love God but to fear and hate this idea of God. It is a form of spiritual terrorism.

 

[Victorious]

But to get back to the topic of private revelations, the ones I’ve heard, like Fatima, do paint a horrific image of hell. These kind of images do not motivate me to love God but to fear and hate this idea of God. It is a form of spiritual terrorism.

Well…I guess you’re right. It WOULD be more compassionate for God to just let you walk right over the cliff without warning you what’s ahead.

 

[nickybr38]

I’m glad to see that Vimy Ridge has sparked some spirited debate about Predestination… and lots of really useful material has emerged for us BUT this is a thread on Private Revelations.

I accept some of the more main stream Private Revelations but not on the same level as fundamental Church teaching, Scripture and the Gospels.

I have a problem though with any Private Revelation that purports to come from a private visitation of Our Lord, especially if it is then quoted in articles and books as being the words of Jesus Christ.

What I don’t understand is Private Revelations that have no PURPOSE… because it seems to me any ‘visions’ or messages that people received in the Bible always had a purpose behind them. A lesson to be learned or whatever. But some people have visions that seem to lack purpose and that makes me wonder.

Thankfully we don’t have to believe everything we hear right?

 

[Victorious]

What I don’t understand is Private Revelations that have no PURPOSE…

Wouldn’t those be the frauds?

 

[nickybr38]

Well…I guess you’re right. It WOULD be more compassionate for God to just let you walk right over the cliff without warning you what’s ahead.

Good point.

I have issues with the idea that God would deliberately terrorize people… It is the revelations that depict such terrorizing that I stumble with personally… but I’m starting to wonder if He doesn’t do this to certain people who would not listen if He took a more loving approach?

Thankfully believing these revelations is NOT required by the Church, nor is it required for salvation.

 

[nickybr38]

Wouldn’t those be the frauds?

Well, in my opinion. What do you think?

 

[Victorious]

I have issues with the idea that God would deliberately terrorize people… It is the revelations that depict such terrorizing that I stumble with personally… but I’m starting to wonder if He doesn’t do this to certain people who would not listen if He took a more loving approach?

That’s the whole principle behind Scared Straight.

And that is why the Church exhorts her children to meditate on the Four Last Things (death, judgment, hell, heaven). It would be wonderful if we were all motivated by sheer love of God to avoid sin; but most of us need the carrot and the stick. This is the Church’s solicitude toward us who are not as far advanced along the road to sainthood.

 

[Victorious]

Well, in my opinion. What do you think?

God does all sorts of things, the point of which I can’t fathom; that’s where I have to trust. But when it comes to legitimate private revelations, they have all had a point. It is the devil, not God, who engages in vain and empty works.