Private Revelations

[nickybr38]

I agree with many of your points. Before I converted to Catholicism I had met an old man who played a major role in my conversion. He gave me a pamphlet about Padre Pio and his stigmata, I remember my first thought was how demonic this was. Over time I became desensitized to the many morbid supernatural events in the Catholic Church and thought they were from God. I no longer believe this, I’ve gone back to my initial gut reaction that all these things i.e. stigmata, bleeding statues, visions of hell, bloody hosts etc. are the work of evil spirits.

I’ve long considered the book of Revelation to be false. Any reputable and honest biblical scholar will tell you that it was written only for those living in 1st century and that it is a failed prophecy. Rev. 22:20, Jesus says “Surely I come quickly.” Two thousand years is not quickly … and also I don’t buy the one day thousand year argument.

If anyone wants to remain a sane Catholic I would suggest that they avoid all these things like the plague, if not you could end up tormented like poor Anneliese Michel who was decieved by evil spirits into thinking that she was suffering for God.

youtube.com/watch?v=x4n9vK0_mdk

Ah, well, that’s where you and I would differ. I don’t believe things that happen within the Church can be manipulated by evil spirits. The Church is Hallowed Ground, they are not allowed inside, I believe this whole heartedly. In my lifetime I have only ever entered two churches that I believed had something other then God inside of them (they were not Catholic churches) and I KNEW it the moment I stepped foot inside but these churches also professed that Jesus Christ was not real, just a fictional character to spur us into moral action and/or that he was the brother of Satan (don’t ask - I did a lot of church hopping in my youth).

Do you think, perhaps, he said “Surely I come quickly” so we would not be lax and rest on our laurels? Do you think, perhaps, he was trying to spur us to continuous fervant action so we wouldn’t grow luke warm or even cold in the Spirit? I don’t know about you but I work best when I know a deadline is near, and I’m prone to procrastinate when I feel there’s lots and lots of time.

You are no longer Catholic then?

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

Would that be as opposed to being a faithful Catholic?

I guess it would depend on your definition of a faithful Catholic. I remember that most priests, brothers and sisters I met were very leery of these things. One Capuchin brother saw a prayer book I owned that had alot of these private revelations in it and even though it was Church approved he still suggested that I should throw it in the fire. Once I asked a Benedictine monk about the visions of the Desert Fathers and he said that their brains were fried from being out in the sun too long. I did know one priest who took some Marian messages very seriously and began to crack up and have strange outburts during Mass. I really think these things are mostly demonic.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

As far as I’m concerned, God’s been sending Mary with warnings and messages. To my mind she’s the woman in Chapter 12 of Revelation. She’s been appearing, a “great and wondrous sign” in heaven. And at Fatima the sun danced. As for appalling visions of hell, I’ve seen nothing to say that God is soft.

My old Protestant pastor commented that in the case of Marian apparitions, “there’s been a lot of them”, and in his opinion, they were a judgment on a divided church.

Revelation 12:1-17 "1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

 

[nickybr38]

13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Okay, this confuses me. I’ve seen this verse interpreted as describing Mary AND as describing the Church (or rather members of the Church) itself. WHAT does the Church teach about this verse? Which one is this verse describing? Mary? Or the Church?

When the dragon sweeps away a third of the stars atop her head (12) isn’t he swiping away a third of the Church’s members? And when she runs away from him, isn’t that God’s people being preserved from the dragon?

Argh. The more I read this verse the more it sounds to me like something that has already happened (Jesus came and then was taken from us), is already happening (more and more are leaving the Church and/or pick and choose what they will believe and thus end up praising both God and the Material World - the dragon is VERY much attacking the Church at this very moment…) and hasn’t yet been fully fulfilled.

I shouldn’t comment on this really… I’m WAY too newborn for all of this greater thinking. It hurts my head.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Okay, this confuses me. I’ve seen this verse interpreted as describing Mary AND as describing the Church (or rather members of the Church) itself. WHAT does the Church teach about this verse? Which one is this verse describing? Mary? Or the Church?

When the dragon sweeps away a third of the stars atop her head (12) isn’t he swiping away a third of the Church’s members? And when she runs away from him, isn’t that God’s people being preserved from the dragon?

Argh. The more I read this verse the more it sounds to me like something that has already happened (Jesus came and then was taken from us), is already happening (more and more are leaving the Church and/or pick and choose what they will believe and thus end up praising both God and the Material World - the dragon is VERY much attacking the Church at this very moment…) and hasn’t yet been fully fulfilled.

I shouldn’t comment on this really… I’m WAY too newborn for all of this greater thinking. It hurts my head.

It probably does describe both Mary and the Church. From what I’ve read around and about,the third of the stars is a third of the angels whom the devil swept into rebellion with him. His forces must have been significant enough to produce war in heaven.

As for a time line to match the vision with earthly events, I don’t think you’re going to get one. But in the 20th century, I heard one preacher say that an estmated Jumbo Jet load of Christians were martyred every day on the average. Most of that was by the Communists. Now we look like coming in for a clash of interreligious civilisations.

The divine and demonic brawl is still on, and we’re the meat in the sandwich. Hence from time to time we get another warning, another visit from the mother of Christ. But since many reject her significance, they take no notice. As far as God is concerned, I think His attitude will be “That’s their problem. They know very well I expect unity, but all they refuse to do anything about it.”

 

[nickybr38]

As far as God is concerned, I think His attitude will be “That’s their problem. They know very well I expect unity, but all they refuse to do anything about it.”

But if Mary is truly visiting us to warn us then she can do so ONLY if God allows it. Right? So His attitude cannot be; that’s their problem… His attitude is; let’s help them.

I think He only gives up on those who have given up on Him.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

Ah, well, that’s where you and I would differ. I don’t believe things that happen within the Church can be manipulated by evil spirits. The Church is Hallowed Ground, they are not allowed inside, I believe this whole heartedly. In my lifetime I have only ever entered two churches that I believed had something other then God inside of them (they were not Catholic churches) and I KNEW it the moment I stepped foot inside but these churches also professed that Jesus Christ was not real, just a fictional character to spur us into moral action and/or that he was the brother of Satan (don’t ask - I did a lot of church hopping in my youth).

Do you think, perhaps, he said “Surely I come quickly” so we would not be lax and rest on our laurels? Do you think, perhaps, he was trying to spur us to continuous fervant action so we wouldn’t grow luke warm or even cold in the Spirit? I don’t know about you but I work best when I know a deadline is near, and I’m prone to procrastinate when I feel there’s lots and lots of time.

You are no longer Catholic then?

I don’t call myself a Catholic or a Christian anymore. I do believe that spirits exist though but I am very suspicious of them. I like to think of Chuch buildings as being safe and sacred too but I’ve never heard that an evil spirit could not cause mischief in one.

I’ve never heard of a church that openly declared that Jesus was fictional, though I know that many mainline protestants downplay some biblical stories as being mythical. Lateley I have been thinking that the Gospels were a creation of the Romans who wanted to trick the Jews into following a pacifistic religion that would not rebel against the Roman Empire the way many militant Messianic Jews were doing in the first century.

So following that train of thought I would also have to assume that the book of Revelation is either a fraud given by men or possibly a deceptive spirit. Check out this link regarding the Second Coming … 2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/notcoming.shtml

 

[nickybr38]

I don’t call myself a Catholic or a Christian anymore. I do believe that spirits exist though but I am very suspicious of them. I like to think of Chuch buildings as being safe and sacred too but I’ve never heard that an evil spirit could not cause mischief in one.

I’ve never heard of a church that openly declared that Jesus was fictional, though I know that many mainline protestants downplay some biblical stories as being mythical. Lateley I have been thinking that the Gospels were a creation of the Romans who wanted to trick the Jews into following a pacifistic religion that would not rebel against the Roman Empire the way many militant Messianic Jews were doing in the first century.

So following that train of thought I would also have to assume that the book of Revelation is either a fraud given by men or possibly a deceptive spirit. Check out this link regarding the Second Coming … 2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/notcoming.shtml

The Romans created a story about the Son of God whom the JEWS demanded be killed to try and trick the Jews into being pacifistic and not rebelling? Really???

Jesus was not exactly the perfect example of a pushover. When required he took action and not always in the most peaceful manner (over turning tables, denouncing people, etc). Read the Gospels again and REALLY look at what was going on in them. Can you truly believe that was the work of the Roman Empire to ‘trick the Jews’ and create a pacifistic people?

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

The Romans created a story about the Son of God whom the JEWS demanded be killed to try and trick the Jews into being pacifistic and not rebelling? Really???

Jesus was not exactly the perfect example of a pushover. When required he took action and not always in the most peaceful manner (over turning tables, denouncing people, etc). Read the Gospels again and REALLY look at what was going on in them. Can you truly believe that was the work of the Roman Empire to ‘trick the Jews’ and create a pacifistic people?

Jesus in the Gospels teaches his followers to give unto Caesar i.e. pay your taxes, turn the other cheek etc. Yes he is critical and resistant of the Jewish leaders but that would make sense if the Romans wanted to lead the common Jews away from the more revolutionary Jewish leaders who were fighting against Roman rule. Think about it, Christians make the ideal citizens in every time and place. Paul says to obey the government in power because it is ordained by God. I know this is not a well known theory but check out these links for a better explanation, also take note that the “Christians” being persecuted by Rome may have been the followers of another Christ/Messiah who was militant.

youtube.com/watch?v=ZQSTk6RyBG4&feature=related

caesarsmessiah.com/

 

[nickybr38]

Jesus in the Gospels teaches his followers to give unto Caesar i.e. pay your taxes, turn the other cheek etc. Yes he is critical and resistant of the Jewish leaders but that would make sense if the Romans wanted to lead the common Jews away from the more revolutionary Jewish leaders who were fighting against Roman rule. Think about it, Christians make the ideal citizens in every time and place. Paul says to obey the government in power because it is ordained by God. I know this is not a well known theory but check out these links for a better explanation, also take note that the “Christians” being persecuted by Rome may have been the followers of another Christ/Messiah who was militant.

youtube.com/watch?v=ZQSTk6RyBG4&feature=related

caesarsmessiah.com/

My brother, you are being deceived.

I know you no longer identify as Christian or Catholic but I implore you to seek God in prayer.

Christians do NOT make ideal citizens. Christians are routinely the thorn in the side of sinful societies. Look around you now and you will see that.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

My brother, you are being deceived.

I know you no longer identify as Christian or Catholic but I implore you to seek God in prayer.

Christians do NOT make ideal citizens. Christians are routinely the thorn in the side of sinful societies. Look around you now and you will see that.

I appreciate your concern, thank you.

I do pray and I still visit a church every now and then but my understanding is that the true God has no religion but we humans have our traditions, nothing wrong with that.

Christians will be good citizens if they practice their religion, at least from the government’s perspective. Trust me those trying to keep order in society would rather have peaceful, sober, law abiding church-goers around then drunken, violent, criminals. Don’t confuse the massses/society with those trying to maintain order. Of course your average TV watching Joe Six-Pack will give you a hard time for following religion but he’s not the one running the show.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I was reading about a private revelation the other day in which the children were shown such terrible things that some of them collapsed and some ended up in comas… That hardly seems the action of a compassionate, loving God.

And what private revelation was this? Only a very small fraction of supposed private revelations are appoved of by the Church as “worthy of belief”.

Also, if the Church does rule a private revelation as “worthy of belief” then it can not be demonic in nature.

 

[Victorious]

I guess it would depend on your definition of a faithful Catholic.

My definition has nothing to do with it. There is an objective standard. If you refuse to accept the Church’s authority and all her teachings, then you don’t meet it.

I do pray and I still visit a church every now and then but my understanding is that the true God has no religion but we humans have our traditions, nothing wrong with that.

There is something wrong with anything that is not true.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

My definition has nothing to do with it. There is an objective standard. If you refuse to accept the Church’s authority and all her teachings, then you don’t meet it.

There is something wrong with anything that is not true.

I’m not claiming to be a faithful Catholic or even a Christian. When I said a Catholic would be better off paying no attention to these strange supernatural events I was not implying that living by Catholic moral standards was wrong. I think that Catholic moral teachings are good, more or less.

I just don’t want to see someone end up like I was … terrified of hell, expecting the world to end and fascinated by morbid and sinister so-called miracles. The image of God we get from these private revelations is of a sick, sadistic monster who will let the vast majority of souls suffer eternal torment in real hellfire not some abstract “separation” from God.

You may argue that people chose to reject God and go to hell but consider this … in traditional Catholic teaching God predestines only some to heaven. Ultimately it’s not up to you where you go. As an old nun said to me once, “I don’t know why He chose me.” At the time I did not realize the Church teaches predestination so I did not understand her, now I do.

I think the Church has some good teachers who can improve Catholicism but if people want to follow these “deceiving spirits” who promote the old dark side of the Catholic religion then no progress can be made.

 

[Victorious]

The image of God we get from these private revelations is of a sick, sadistic monster who will let the vast majority of souls suffer eternal torment in real hellfire not some abstract “separation” from God.

That is the image YOU get. And the Church does NOT teach predestination. No wonder you are so deceived: you don’t know the Catholic faith.

God have mercy on whoever has taught you to believe lies about the Catholic Church.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

That is the image YOU get. And the Church does NOT teach predestination. No wonder you are so deceived: you don’t know the Catholic faith.

God have mercy on whoever has taught you to believe lies about the Catholic Church.

Two Oratorian priests from my parish told me that the Church teaches predestination. It was a shock to me even though it is a biblical doctrine. When I was told this I protested that it was unfair that many would be damned to hell and really had no choice, they countered that and said the teaching was not a double predestination like Calvinism where some are also predestined to hell. Of course I had to point out that this makes no difference, if you are not predestined for Heaven where else will you go. St. Augustine believed in predestination, right? I also had this confirmed by a conservative Jesuit priest too. This old Catholic doctrine is not often taught.

 

[Victorious]

Two Oratorian priests from my parish told me that the Church teaches predestination. It was a shock to me even though it is a biblical doctrine. When I was told this I protested that it was unfair that many would be damned to hell and really had no choice, they countered that and said the teaching was not a double predestination like Calvinism where some are also predestined to hell. Of course I had to point out that this makes no difference, if you are not predestined for Heaven where else will you go. St. Augustine believed in predestination, right? I also had this confirmed by a conservative Jesuit priest too. This old Catholic doctrine is not often taught.

Point out the paragraph in the Catechism where this is taught.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

Point out the paragraph in the Catechism where this is taught.

I have looked in the Catechism but cannot find it, the index does not even have the word predestination. It is a traditional teaching though and I’m sure you know the scriptures that support it. My old priest mentioned that there are saints who have agonized over this doctrine, found it hard to accept. I was even told that making a good confession was no guarantee that you would avoid hell. Let’s just say I’ve been exposed to real old school bone chilling Catholicism.

 

[CathFaith1]

God ONLY wills the good for all of us. No soul is ever predestined for damnation. Yet Predestination is taught by the Catholic Church.

See Catechism: 600, 2012, 2782 and 2823.

Also, an excellent explanation of Predestination in Catholic teaching can be found in the archives of this forum.

 

[Victorious]

I have looked in the Catechism but cannot find it, the index does not even have the word predestination. It is a traditional teaching though and I’m sure you know the scriptures that support it. My old priest mentioned that there are saints who have agonized over this doctrine, found it hard to accept. I was even told that making a good confession was no guarantee that you would avoid hell. Let’s just say I’ve been exposed to real old school bone chilling Catholicism.

You can’t find it because it’s not there. You have never been exposed to real Catholicism. You reject what you do not even know. God help the people who lied to you and taught you to believe lies, especially if they were priests.