J
JMJ_coder
Guest
It almost seems like that poster is equating the existence of hell with God being monstrous. But, hell is the free choice of man, not God (so they are erroneous in their assumptions).
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J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Would it be loving to torture someone by making them be in the eternal presence of the One they hate more than anything?
V
Vimy_Ridge
Guest
Stop trying to justify madness and evil. No sane person truly hates the God of love. The reason people hate the God of the Bible is because He is evil. The God of the Bible allows unspeakable pain and suffering in this world and then threatens you with even more in the afterlife if you don’t suck up to Him and say you’re sorry for a whole bunch of so-called sins. And what are these evil sins that can send you to eternal torment according to the Church? Missing Mass, masturbation, using a condom, lustful thoughts and not believing fairy tales just to name a few. Of course people hate a “God” like that, any sane person would.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
That’s one of the most moronic posts I’ve ever read here.
V
Vimy_Ridge
Guest
Wow even Christians on the internet are rude. What happened to Christian charity, huh?
Tell me why I am wrong, simply insulting my heartfelt opinion is not going to help here.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
It was the most charitable thing I could think of at the time (though, I’m sorry if your offended). It is one thing to question how their could be so much evil in the world, or why there is a hell – but to then accuse God and His Church (and yes, the God of the Bible is the only God and His Church subsists in the Catholic Church) of being evil and malicious.
I ask you, though, how could a God of justice be reconciled with the allowance and reward of willy-nilly anything goes behavior of mankind? When man demonstrates a lack of love towards God through his actions how is it loving to force said man to endure the presence of the One he despises? In our civil society we prosecute those who force people to stay in relationships they don’t want to be in (first of all through restraining orders). Is then our civil government more compassionate than God? I think not.
We must be aware that while we have free will and can choose for ourselves, our choices have consequences for good and for ill both in this world and the next.
V
Vimy_Ridge
Guest
I was not all that offended just a bit disappointed that’s all. I don’t think everything in the Church or the Bible is bad, there is a mixture of good and evil in both. God is a the ‘Great Mystery’ and the Church and the Bible are like tools that give us images and rituals that we can use when trying to connect with this ‘Great Mystery’ … I don’t really believe that the Creator is a person though so I would have to say that my God is not your God. On the other hand I do believe that this world is inhabited and influenced by dangerous higher beings that we need to be leery of. I believe the safest spiritual path is one where you have nothing to do with any lesser spirit being at all, and that includes those that claim to be Jesus or Mary. Live within and accept the ‘Great Mystery’ aka God but ignore any lesser spirits who want your attention and service. Living a bad life is punishment enough in this life, we learn nothing from eternal torture. And that is what Catholic Hell traditionally is. It’s not simply a separation from an all good God it’s more like a barbaric beating from a wrathful, vengeful psychopath. Even a lifetime of immoral behaviour does not deserve that.
The_Reginator
Active member
Don’t forget where you are posting friend.
I realize that you have questions and doubts, but some of your wording is offensive and insulting to many of us here. (eg, Calling our loving Creator and Savior a psychopath.) In being forthright you have also been insulting our heartfelt beliefs.
So don’t be too surprised if we sometimes get a little defensive.
I picked out this quote simply to point out what I read day after day. It is an example of how we consider ourselves more intelligent than God. We know what is right and wrong, and if God’s revelations don’t jive with our thinking then it is God who is wrong.
We’re rather full of ourselves, aren’t we? (And by ‘we’ I don’t mean just you! I mean we, as we are all guilty of this at times.)
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I disagree with you. I do not believe that the vision of Hell at Fatima showed a “present reality”.
I, and every other Catholic, am free to believe this as the private revelations at Fatima are in no way binding upon Catholics.
You are way off on what the Catholic Church actually Teaches.
V
Vimy_Ridge
Guest
Check out this quote from ‘Blessed Faustina is Shown Hell’ from the link below,
“Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity … I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like.”
OK I realize that the Church wants to make it as easy as possible to believe and follow the Catholic religion. You have the option to disregard the old view of Hell but I am now convinced that if Catholicism is true then these visions of Hell are accurate.
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Vimy_Ridge
Guest
OK I’ll be more respectful. I understand how you feel because I used to believe the same things too and often had my views attacked and ridiculed.
You say people consider themselves more intelligent then God. If there is an intelligent personal Creator of the universe then only a fool would consider themselves more intelligent then Him. That’s not the issue here really. There was a time when I thought Catholicism was 100 % true, I had forgotten that it was only a belief system that I chose to accept. I had forgotten that it was still a belief not a fact. Is that where you are right now?
The_Reginator
Active member
I presume, from your way of thinking, that you are assuming that the only facts we have to go by are the perceptions we receive from our senses. Those and our ability to annalise those perceptions.
It is a big assumption to say that nothing exists beyond what we can perceive sensually. Many do not even realize that they are making assumptions when dismissing all revelation as being mere superstition or something.
This universe is far too big for me to consider that kind of thinking. But above all, we have historic records of God becoming Man. Either that or He was a madman as C.S. Lewis points out.
H
Hesychios
Guest
The Latin church has taught predestination following Augustine, but has not adopted his teaching of *double-*predestination.
It can be argued that the Immaculate Conception of Mary dogma is an expression of predestination in Catholicism.
H
Hesychios
Guest
Father Benedict Groeschel wrote a very good book on the subject of private revelations, and I think that it would be worthwhile for everyone to read it.
Still Small Voice: A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations, Ignatius Press, 1993.
Still Small Voice: A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations, Ignatius Press, 1993.
L
Layman
Guest
Why does great evil exist? Without it, we couldn’t know great good.
My opinion: Assume the worst could happen: Damnation and Hell. Hope for the best: The Mercy of Christ The King.
Work hard to be good.* You can’t be faulted if you truly tried your best. *
Then, depending of which theologian you subscribe to, you’ll squeak in the door or enjoy a high estate in Heaven.
For me, approved private revelations are an interesting way of trying to learn Heaven’s current opinion of the human race i.e. how are we doing?
My opinion: Assume the worst could happen: Damnation and Hell. Hope for the best: The Mercy of Christ The King.
Work hard to be good.* You can’t be faulted if you truly tried your best. *
Then, depending of which theologian you subscribe to, you’ll squeak in the door or enjoy a high estate in Heaven.
For me, approved private revelations are an interesting way of trying to learn Heaven’s current opinion of the human race i.e. how are we doing?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Wow, were to start.
Not true, evil is not present just so that we can know good.
Not so bad here.
Depends on a lot of things, like how one defines good.
This statement borders on heretical.
Hmmm, don’t know about this one but I do not agree with it. Apparitions should point to Christ, period. They should help us to understand the public revelation, nothing more.
L
Layman
Guest
My meaning is: When people ask* “Why is there such great evil in the world if God is so good?”, one answer is “Well, how would we know what good was if we didn’t have evil to compare it to?” *
Another is “Well, if you don’t like the amount of evil in the world, how much would you like and to what degree? If you want none, then we’d have a state like existed in Paradise before the Fall; blissful, but static and ignorant, in the sense of lack of knowledge. Kind of like a pampered Earl here on earth”.
Another answer is: “God isn’t responsible for the evil, Man is. Look around you.”
My borderline heretical statement is based on an impression I’m getting these days. Like at funerals people are told, or given the impression: “he’s in Heaven now”, when there’s no guarantee of that. Also, Jesus’ Mercy is played up and His Judgement not emphasised at all. I think it’s dangerous. Compare that to the lives of ascetic saints, who struggle hard. The latter is the ideal we should aim for, in my opinion. Play safe. Do your very best. Find out why intelligent men gave up everything, embraced material poverty and went into hard and wild places. What were they getting in return?
Another is “Well, if you don’t like the amount of evil in the world, how much would you like and to what degree? If you want none, then we’d have a state like existed in Paradise before the Fall; blissful, but static and ignorant, in the sense of lack of knowledge. Kind of like a pampered Earl here on earth”.
Another answer is: “God isn’t responsible for the evil, Man is. Look around you.”
My borderline heretical statement is based on an impression I’m getting these days. Like at funerals people are told, or given the impression: “he’s in Heaven now”, when there’s no guarantee of that. Also, Jesus’ Mercy is played up and His Judgement not emphasised at all. I think it’s dangerous. Compare that to the lives of ascetic saints, who struggle hard. The latter is the ideal we should aim for, in my opinion. Play safe. Do your very best. Find out why intelligent men gave up everything, embraced material poverty and went into hard and wild places. What were they getting in return?
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