Private Revelations

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Vimy_Ridge said:
Nah it would be far more compassionate for God to eliminate hell.

Hey have you ever heard of Sky Cake? youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w&playnext_from=TL&videos=zg49194uxQs
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If Hell is the absence of God… then He didn’t create it. It exists because we can choose to be seperated from Him.

I know images of Hell terrorize you, however… perhaps those ‘visions’ of Hell were more a symbolic glimpse of what it FEELS like to be seperate from God rather than a physical reality?
 
nickybr38 said:
If Hell is the absence of God… then He didn’t create it. It exists because we can choose to be seperated from Him.

I know images of Hell terrorize you, however… perhaps those ‘visions’ of Hell were more a symbolic glimpse of what it FEELS like to be seperate from God rather than a physical reality?
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It is interesting to consider the wide range of belief about the nature of Hell one finds in Catholicism, here is a priest who makes Hell sound like something more like a state of isolation, also at 6:30 he states that Catholics are not obliged to believe anyone is actually in Hell … youtube.com/watch?v=x8zhnooySk4

Now compare this to the Fatima nightmare vision of a very real lake of fire, I don’t sense much metaphor here … fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asp
Victorious said:
That’s it. I’m done arguing with somebody who knows better than God.
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Look neither of us really know anything about God. We are talking about ideas or images of God. The real Creator is a ‘Great Mystery’ the ‘Bible God’ is a character of human imagination which has changed over time.

What you are really saying is you won’t argue with someone who thinks your version of Catholicism has some serious flaws.
 
nickybr38 said:
What I don’t understand is Private Revelations that have no PURPOSE…
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Can you name a Church approved private revelation that has no purpose?

I think many here are confusing approved ones with ones that are not approved.

We should only be discussing approved ones as those are the only ones that Catholics may believe in but are not required to do so.
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
Calvinist predestination (as far as I understand it) would involve a double predestination and I know the Church does not teach that. But I think we are splitting hairs now. I guess my problem is more concerning the nature of hell. I know the Church has no specific description of the nature of hell so that is not my concern,

But to get back to the topic of private revelations, the ones I’ve heard, like Fatima, do paint a horrific image of hell. These kind of images do not motivate me to love God but to fear and hate this idea of God. It is a form of spiritual terrorism.
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What is your feeling on free will? Part of free will is that we must live with the consequences of our choices. If we do not have that then do we really have free will to chose?

No one has to go to Hell, it is a choice.
 
ByzCath said:
What is your feeling on free will? Part of free will is that we must live with the consequences of our choices. If we do not have that then do we really have free will to chose?

No one has to go to Hell, it is a choice.
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I doubt that we have free will. I often view life as a story that is already written.
Living life is like reading the story, there is an ending but I don’t know what it is.

There may be a Hell but as the priest said in my posted video above we are not obliged to believe that anyone ends up there.

In Screwtape Letters towards the end the chief demon puts forth the idea that to truly commit a mortal sin is harder than we often think. I don’t know anything for sure but many private revelations make it seem as if avoiding Hell is nearly impossible.

If I return to the faith I will follow a stripped down version of Catholicism that pays no mind to private revelations. In my eyes they are satanic.
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
I doubt that we have free will. I often view life as a story that is already written.
Living life is like reading the story, there is an ending but I don’t know what it is.
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Another case of where you differ from Catholic Teaching.
There may be a Hell but as the priest said in my posted video above we are not obliged to believe that anyone ends up there.
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That is correct, I would go one step further and say that due to Christian Charity we should actually Hope that no one is in Hell.
In Screwtape Letters towards the end the chief demon puts forth the idea that to truly commit a mortal sin is harder than we often think. I don’t know anything for sure but many private revelations make it seem as if avoiding Hell is nearly impossible.
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I agree with the three conditions that must be met (1: sin is of grave matter, 2: knowledge that the sin is of grave matter, and 3: full consent of the will) committing a mortal sin is not easy.

I disagree with you that “private revelations” make it seem that avoiding Hell is impossible.

I think we need to stop talking in vague terms like this. Actually give examples of approved private revelations that show that Hell is impossible to avoid.
If I return to the faith I will follow a stripped down version of Catholicism that pays no mind to private revelations. In my eyes they are satanic.
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Then you are gravely mistaken about the Catholic Faith. No Catholic is required to believe in any approved revelation so it would not be necessary for you to follow a “stripped down version of Catholicism” to do so.

To say that they are satanic though would mean that you could never be a Catholic as what the Church states is worthy of belief can not be of demonic origin and is placing yourself as the authority over that which only the Church may judge and in essence is protestantism, not Catholicism. As a Catholic we must assent that the Church may rule in these matters that a private revelation is worthy of belief but we do not have to believe.
 
ByzCath said:
I agree with the three conditions that must be met (1: sin is of grave matter, 2: knowledge that the sin is of grave matter, and 3: full consent of the will) committing a mortal sin is not easy.
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I strongly disagree. Falling in to mortal sin is a piece of cake. I guarantee that most educated catholics fall into it quite frequently. Especially with regards to the sins of the flesh. Unless you’re retired and have E.D. If you think committing mortal sin is “not easy”, you’re either:
1.a heretic like C.S. Lewis
2. in denial
3. A saint with extremely privileged graces from God, destined to become canonized.

I really hope there are a lot of number 3’s on the TC board, and there probably are. But the struggle with carnal sins among educated catholics should be obvious from reading St.Augustine…“Give me continence, but not yet…”

For this reason, I personally like the morbid personal revelations because they remind me of hell. Even if St.Padre Pio’s stigmata were self-inflicted wounds…I can’t prove it either way and the possibility that he actually bled from the hands and did physical combat with the devil lurks in the back of my mind.
 
dostoyevskyfan said:
I strongly disagree. Falling in to mortal sin is a piece of cake. I guarantee that most educated catholics fall into it quite frequently. Especially with regards to the sins of the flesh. Unless you’re retired and have E.D. If you think committing mortal sin is “not easy”, you’re either:
1.a heretic like C.S. Lewis
2. in denial
3. A saint with extremely privileged graces from God, destined to become canonized.

I really hope there are a lot of number 3’s on the TC board, and there probably are. But the struggle with carnal sins among educated catholics should be obvious from reading St.Augustine…“Give me continence, but not yeattt…”

For this reason, I personally like the morbid personal revelations because they remind me of hell. Even if St.Padre Pio’s stigmata were self-inflicted wounds…I can’t prove it either way and the possibility that he actually bled from the hands and did physical combat with the devil lurks in the back of my mind.
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I don’t know, with the three necessary conditions;
  1. Sin must be of grave matter
  2. The person must know that the sin is of grave matter
  3. The sin must be committed with deliberit consent of the will
    So anything that is done without full consent, i.e. habit or addiction, can not be a mortal sin. Anything done without knowledge that it is of grave matter, no guessing they must know, it is not a mortal sin.
Also, to be a heretic one must be a Catholic that is teaching contrary to the Faith, those who are not Catholics can not be formal heretics, so C.S. Lewis is not a heretic.

Also, having the opinion that mortal sin is hard to committ does not make one a “retard” nor does it make one a heretic.

So please refain from the ad hominum attacks. I am not a heretic and I am not in denial. We are all saints as in we are followers of Christ, a Saint is one declared to be in Heaven by the Church (notice the s and the S). I would also say that we are all Saints in the making but not many of us make it to the point that the Church declares such a thing.
 
ByzCath said:
That is correct, I would go one step further and say that due to Christian Charity we should actually Hope that no one is in Hell.

Then you are gravely mistaken about the Catholic Faith. No Catholic is required to believe in any approved revelation so it would not be necessary for you to follow a “stripped down version of Catholicism” to do so.
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Though I hope no one is now or ever will end up in Hell, doesn’t that contradict the scriptures that describe the final Judgement? I mean if I have the option to hold that opinion I’ll take it but still scripture seems to suggest otherwise.

I guess I need to start over and just stick with the Catechism. When I first took an interest in Catholicism I was reading all kinds of books including Protestant ones. What I meant by the term “stripped down Catholicism” was simply the basics.
 
Woah. No need to get defensive.
ByzCath said:
I don’t know, with the three necessary conditions;
  1. Sin must be of grave matter
  2. The person must know that the sin is of grave matter
  3. The sin must be committed with deliberit consent of the will
    So anything that is done without full consent, i.e.** habit or addiction**, can not be a mortal sin. Anything done without knowledge that it is of grave matter, no guessing they must know, it is not a mortal sin.
*Habit or addiction? Do you have a source? Could you please qualify that? What mortal sins do the Church categorize as such? I’ve always understood that knowledge, volition, and grave matter were the only constituents.

What about these sins? Adultery (as defined by Christ…looking at a married woman with a lustful eye), Impurity with the self, birth control, withdrawal/non-vaginal intercourse for married couples, pre-marital fornication. You really think most people haven’t read the catechism and the bible, or do you think it’s extremely easy for most people to avoid these? *

Also, to be a heretic one must be a Catholic that is teaching contrary to the Faith, those who are not Catholics can not be formal heretics, so C.S. Lewis is not a heretic.

Isn’t an informal heretic still a heretic? I thought anyone who has full knowledge of the Catholic Churches teachings (as did Lewis via JRR Tolkien) and teaches otherwise with pride and arrogance is defined as a heretic. Can you point me to where I can find your definition? What’s the difference between the heretical sect of the Gnostics and the heretical sect of the Anglican Church which was founded on King Henry’s divorce, may or may not ordain women, have gay marriages, not believe in transubstantiation?

Also, having the opinion that mortal sin is hard to committ does not make one a “retard” nor does it make one a heretic.

I never called you or anyone a “retard”. That word was never in my post. You may have misread the word “retired” which I wrote to indicate that someone in the advanced ages, due to certain biological reasons, may have less difficulty avoiding the carnal sins. I cannot speak for the fairer sex.

So please refain from the ad hominum attacks. I am not a heretic and I am not in denial. We are all saints as in we are followers of Christ, a Saint is one declared to be in Heaven by the Church (notice the s and the S). I would also say that we are all Saints in the making but not many of us make it to the point that the Church declares such a thing.

If you thought I was making an ad hom attack on you, I apologize, but that was your deduction, not my intention. And I never called you a heretic. Calm down.
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ByzCath said:
Can you name a Church approved private revelation that has no purpose?

I think many here are confusing approved ones with ones that are not approved.

We should only be discussing approved ones as those are the only ones that Catholics may believe in but are not required to do so.
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We should only be discussing approved ones? Except that wasn’t mentioned in the OP. 🙂 He just asked opinions on private revelations… or more specifically was looking for traditional Catholics who paid no heed to private revelations.
 
Let me qualify my statement about mortal sins a bit more.

It is hard for a faithful Catholic to commit a mortal sin. Those who do not care about the faith can and do commit them.
 
nickybr38 said:
We should only be discussing approved ones? Except that wasn’t mentioned in the OP. 🙂 He just asked opinions on private revelations… or more specifically was looking for traditional Catholics who paid no heed to private revelations.
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In a Catholic forum we should restrict ourselves to only discussing Church approved private revelations.

In this thread we have a user who is bringing up strange things that he claims are from private revelations yet is not stating what private revelation they come from and then using those strange things to determine that all private revelations are of demonic origin.

A private revelation that has been determined to be worthy of belief by the Church can not, by definition, be of demonic origin.

When we do not limit ourselves to only Church approved private revelations then we muddy the waters and open it up to such a, at best, misunderstanding or, at worst, a misleading of what the Church actually Teaches.
 
ByzCath said:
In this thread we have a user who is bringing up strange things that he claims are from private revelations yet is not stating what private revelation they come from and then using those strange things to determine that all private revelations are of demonic origin.
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OK let’s take the vision of Hell that was received at Fatima. How can we trust a God who would allow this?

If the Fatima vision of Hell is true then we are seemingly stuck with two choices,
  1. worship a monstrous evil God or
  2. burn eternally.
The only other way out, that I can see, is to dismiss it all as a fraud or possibly of demonic origin.
Vimy_Ridge said:
the Fatima nightmare vision of a very real lake of fire, I don’t sense much metaphor here … fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asp
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ByzCath said:
In a Catholic forum we should restrict ourselves to only discussing Church approved private revelations.

In this thread we have a user who is bringing up strange things that he claims are from private revelations yet is not stating what private revelation they come from and then using those strange things to determine that all private revelations are of demonic origin.

A private revelation that has been determined to be worthy of belief by the Church can not, by definition, be of demonic origin.

When we do not limit ourselves to only Church approved private revelations then we muddy the waters and open it up to such a, at best, misunderstanding or, at worst, a misleading of what the Church actually Teaches.
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Fair enough. I know many of the revelations I’ve read have NOT been Church approved and usually those were the ones that disturbed me the most.

Although I have to admit to a certain amount of skepticism and discomfort with the Fatima revelation (and I won’t go into why - I think this thread is a dangerous enough mindfield yikes!)…

Returning to the OP; I’m not Catholic yet, but I know I’ll probably be a Catholic who chooses to leave private revelations alone. The Church is enough for me. 🙂 Tradition and the Bible, that’s all the revelation I need.
 
nickybr38 said:
Fair enough. I know many of the revelations I’ve read have NOT been Church approved and usually those were the ones that disturbed me the most.

Although I have to admit to a certain amount of skepticism and discomfort with the Fatima revelation (**and I won’t go into why **- I think this thread is a dangerous enough mindfield yikes!)…
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I would be very interested in reading your thoughts on Fatima.

The conversation has already begun, why not continue?
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
OK let’s take the vision of Hell that was received at Fatima. How can we trust a God who would allow this?

If the Fatima vision of Hell is true then we are seemingly stuck with two choices,
  1. worship a monstrous evil God or
  2. burn eternally.
The only other way out, that I can see, is to dismiss it all as a fraud or possibly of demonic origin.
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I believe that the vision of Hell from the Fatima apparition was what Hell could be like if certain things did not happen, it was not what Hell is.

But as the Church Teaches Catholics are free to believe or not believe but you go too far when you claim demonic origin to what the Church has determined is from God.
 
ByzCath said:
I believe that the vision of Hell from the Fatima apparition was what Hell could be like if certain things did not happen, it was not what Hell is.

But as the Church Teaches Catholics are free to believe or not believe but you go too far when you claim demonic origin to what the Church has determined is from God.
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But the visions of Hell given to the Saints show what Hell is like. Literally a place of fire, demons and horrific torture. They are not to be taken metaphorically or as a possibility and there is no option for saying that no human soul will go there. They show that people are already there and that it is a **present **reality.

tldm.org/News8/realityofhell.htm

Modern Catholic apoligists often defend the doctrine of Hell and focus on it being a separation from God that people freely make. Yes if you take the basic Church teaching on Hell and ignore these private revelations you can make the doctrine tolerable or reasonable but if the Church also approves of these horrific visions then we are back to the traditional view of Hell. A place of literal fire, torture, demons that one can never escape from. I cannot love or trust a God who would allow this and I cannot trust a Church that will not speak out against this.
 
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