Pro Choice/Abortion “Catholics”

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What is your definition of a “free society?”
A free society is one where a citizen can do as they wish until those actions have a detrimental affect the rights and freedom of a fellow citizen. Thus, the discussion becomes a political and sociological one, not a religious one. I am not arguing for the Church to change it’s stance on abortion. I am saying the Republican position of making abortion illegal while all other GOP social viewpoints are oppositional to pregnancy, birth, and child care, is effectively far worse than the moderate-liberal position.

The Catholic Church is almost as bad. How can one rationally be against abortion and ALSO against birth control. You are living in fantasy land. It is not a logical worldview.
The question – RE: abortion – is whether the fetus is a human being.
This is the point of discussion. Perhaps one day we could declare a fetus is a citizen at the time of conception. Today, a fetus has no rights as a citizen until they are born. Should we assign babies social security numbers at conception? Should we give “conception certificates” in addition to birth certificates?
Right now, I think 18-25 weeks in where we should begin.

But keep in mind I am not advocating abortion in any way. I am just saying that in the world we were put into, and the state of society, you simply cannot make abortion illegal, You aren’t solving the problem. The solution is to implement social programs, health care, safety nets, birth control, adoption programs, and so on so that abortion - even if legal to a point - is never needed.
 
There is no one I’ve ever seen within these forums that are self-proclaimed outright advocates for abortion. You can argue till the cows come home, day in, day out, but doesn’t anyone have a few clinics they can picket. You’re preaching to the choir boys and it is all that is talked about morning, noon and night…Sure it’s important, no one denies it. But to argue against one another to the point of obsession when you’re on the same team gets twisted into a self abrogation and vain glory, really nothing else. It’s wasted time in the jest of things, most of the things you’re fighting against need to have that energy spent outside a forum…not in here, good grief and hells bells…it’s nuts. Write a novel and perhaps you’ll reach someone who actually does “believe in” abortion.
 
The Catholic Church is almost as bad. How can one rationally be against abortion and ALSO against birth control. You are living in fantasy land. It is not a logical worldview.
Of course it’s a “logical” worldview. It is logical because it is consistent with the premises that serve as its starting point. Don’t try to appropriate logic to your position because, in fact, your position is the less consistently logical one.

The premise that a human life begins at conception comes with the implications that both abortion and birth control are illicit.

Your position that abortion is permissible until 18-25 weeks is the arbitrary one. You appear to be setting the “rule” not based upon any solid warrant but because you have to set it somewhere, otherwise there is no distinct point that would stop someone from killing infants. Even “pain capable” stipulations afford no exact determination, which is why you have to declare a range of between 18-25 weeks.

Yours is actually the illogical position because it isn’t based upon any real justification, just on the vague sensation hat there ought to be some kind of limitation otherwise Hillary is correct that partial birth and after birth abortions are permissible because of a lack of any other real determination. Speaking of “fantasyland.” You are the Disney of logic and reality, with the fables you are attempting to write.

You just don’t like the implications of your lack of logical warrant so you are compelled to draw the line somewhere. That is illogical because your position is based more on sociological squishiness than it is on science or ethical principles.
 
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There is no one I’ve ever seen within these forums that are self-proclaimed outright advocates for abortion.
No one?

What has @LateCatholic been doing the entire thread?

So now advocating for abortion until 18-25 weeks is NOT “outright” advocating for abortion?

What, precisely, is it, then?
 
No one?

What has @LateCatholic been doing the entire thread?

So now advocating for abortion until 18-25 weeks is NOT “outright” advocating for abortion?

What, precisely, is it, then?
I read this from @LateCatholic
This is the point of discussion. Perhaps one day we could declare a fetus is a citizen at the time of conception. Today, a fetus has no rights as a citizen until they are born. Should we assign babies social security numbers at conception? Should we give “conception certificates” in addition to birth certificates?
Right now, I think 18-25 weeks in where we should begin.

But keep in mind I am not advocating abortion in any way. I am just saying that in the world we were put into, and the state of society, you simply cannot make abortion illegal, You aren’t solving the problem. The solution is to implement social programs, health care, safety nets, birth control, adoption programs, and so on so that abortion - even if legal to a point - is never needed………….ending his quote…….

I may or may not agree with his proposal to end abortion but I read him a bit to be fair to him in an attempt to understand my brother, understanding is 1/2 the battle. We as Catholics have to stop the me good, you bad idea. My approach to someone, especially a woman that could be contemplating an abortion would call for love, not debate, not organized religious lynching with a gun pointed at her head, but love. Love changes lives more than anything else in the world. Want to see some real change with a ‘bad guy’, love him. This example is seen per se’’ with Our Lord, He lead the way whether it was with a tax collector, an adulteress, a religious sect that was despised by the true faith…it’s there brother, in all it’s love for the world to see. It wasn’t time spent arguing.

Now, I ask one favor of you. Please don’t pick one line from my post leaving the meat of what I am attempting to say without a bone. Look at the whole of it if possible for you, and begin to see with the eyes of your heart, make an attempt. LateCatholic’s idea’s look to me like he is looking for a “start” to solve a dilemma… I don’t necessarily agree, I don’t have to agree with him/her to see he/she is not an advocate of abortion but a seeker of it’s end with a different view of how to go about doing it than I.
Argue his/her agenda on the grounds of feasible solutions, but not from the standpoint of arguing with an abortion advocate…for which he/she is not. I must take my brother at his word he is who he claims to be, or in this case who/what he is not.
 
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I must take my brother at his word he is who he claims to be, or in this case who/what he is not.
Since the only words they have said that they are not arguing for abortion are literally those words and every other word she says argues for abortion being necessary in a ‘free society’ I’ll take the overwhelming evidence that she is arguing for abortion.

Your posts are similar but not as obvious.You’ve never told me despite me asking you multiple times:

If you had the chance to make abortion illegal would you?
 
Since the only words they have said that they are not arguing for abortion are literally those words and every other word she says argues for abortion being necessary in a ‘free society’ I’ll take the overwhelming evidence that she is arguing for abortion.

Your posts are similar but not as obvious.You’ve never told me despite me asking you multiple times:

If you had the chance to make abortion illegal would you?
I’ll address your question first. Although Illegality would be a positive, and if placed on a ballot alone of course I would vote against it. However, what I’ve said in the past I will say once more. There is a law against murder and murder happens within a society as well as theft and violations against other moral laws. A law against murder has not caused it to cease.
I cannot within good conscience place faith nor much credence in the laws of the land as I do in the power of the Holy Spirit to make a change in someone’s heart. This is where change has to happen as with any other negative moral action, and I’ll leave it there.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.

I tell you that charity will go much farther in dealing with these women than any law. How far can love go?
 
My point about twins is that when you make a claim such as “life begins at conception” and base your morality on that, you are asking for trouble. Identical twins, in vitro, and so forth cause headaches. Also, as I mention elsewhere, you need to give fetuses social security numbers, tax breaks and so forth. Otherwise you are just lying. The catholic position is somewhat respectable, but Republicans? Disgraceful.
Your grasp of logic is not only tenuous but unhinged.

You don’t nullify a perfectly good principle by vaguely citing some exception as if that exception just cannot be refuted. Merely because you cannot grasp that what you call a “headache” when it doesn’t even rise to the level of head scratcher, does not cinch your position.

Why, precisely, would we need to issue social security numbers or give tax breaks to fetuses once it is accepted that life begins at conception?

That just makes no sense.

We do not add children to voter rolls merely because we acknowledge the right to life of children.

Why wouldn’t we have to, if your argument works?

The answer is: your argument is full of holes.

There is nothing that prevents someone from claiming that individual human beings have a right to life, all the while acknowledging that certain other rights, privileges or responsibilities do not necessarily accrue as a function of a basic right to life.

An individual fetus or child may not yet have the capacity to fulfill the moral requirements (i.e., responsibilities) that attend certain rights. You may, as an adult, have a right to form a private judgement or to liberty of conscience, but that right is determined by your capacity to do carry out the practice of that right, precisely because a right implies that all others have a responsibility to permit you to exercise that right. A right to enter into a contract with another is predicated on your capacity to fulfill that contract. That a person could not fulfill the terms of a contract would remove the right of the person to enter into contracts to begin with. Thus, only those deemed to be competent adults are permitted to legally contract with others.

Some rights are legal rights (bestowed by the state) and some are inalienable and cannot be taken away by the state.

Conscience rights or the right to form judgements are natural or inalienable, but these only come into effect when the person is capable of an appropriate level of moral and intellectual development. This is why parents act on behalf of the children and make decisions for them in matters that those children are not competent to take on themselves.

The right to life of any one human being is an inalienable right that must be respected by all others. The only competency required is that one is alive as a human being.

You cannot argue that one person has a right to take the life of another merely because they are an undue burden. If that were the case then any parent would have a right to kill any of their children once those children became an undo burden. Do you really want to go there?
 
I’ll address your question first. Although Illegality would be a positive, and if placed on a ballot alone of course I would vote against it. However, what I’ve said in the past I will say once more. There is a law against murder and murder happens within a society as well as theft and violations against other moral laws. A law against murder has not caused it to cease.
Yes, but the fact that murders continue despite laws against murder is neither an argument for removing or rescinding the laws, nor an argument that the laws shouldn’t have been written in the first place.

So what, precisely is the argument you are making?
 
But keep in mind I am not advocating abortion in any way. I am just saying that in the world we were put into, and the state of society, you simply cannot make abortion illegal, You aren’t solving the problem. The solution is to implement social programs, health care, safety nets, birth control, adoption programs, and so on so that abortion - even if legal to a point - is never needed………….ending his quote…….
So why are laws against abortion the only ones which are susceptible to this shortcoming?

Laws against murder, theft, rape, abuse, etc., all are not “solving the problem.”

Why not advocate the implementation of social programs, health care, safety nets, etc., to deal will all of those problems since no criminal or immoral behaviour will be cured by legal sanction?

The answer is that legal sanction is never intended to be the cure for the perpetrators, but is meant to protect the vulnerable, the victims.

The hidden premise in your argument, the one you cannot seem to acknowledge, is that you don’t see the fetus as a human victim, but only see the woman and are representing her interests alone.

It is only reasonable to take your position if you completely diminish the humanity of the victim – the fetus.

Yet, you yourself at one time were a fetus in your mother’s womb and killing that fetus would have unquestionably and irrefutably killed YOU. The potential for you to be you began at conception, the starting point for the being who is you. You did not begin at 18-25 weeks. You began at conception.
 
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My point about twins is that when you make a claim such as “life begins at conception” and base your morality on that, you are asking for trouble. Identical twins, in vitro, and so forth cause headaches.
No, conception is the beginning of each of their lives.
Also, as I mention elsewhere, you need to give fetuses social security numbers, tax breaks and so forth.
We didn’t always give Social Security numbers at birth; we gave them when people accrues income. Does that mean we once thought people with no income were eligible to be killed?

We once had no income tax, thus no tax breaks for dependents. We changed that, so it should be simple to give tax breaks for unborn dependents as well as dependents who are born.

Did you know unborn children can inherit?
 
You aren’t solving the problem
What, precisely, is “the problem”?
The solution is to implement social programs, health care, safety nets, birth control, adoption programs, and so on so that abortion - even if legal to a point - is never needed……
What more do we need to give in the way of social programs?

I asked these questions earlier in the thread, but received no answer.
 
AI do read and I did notice it was of LateCatholic and not you of whom I asked the question earlier, which is why I did not say that I had asked you earlier in the thread. You seemed to be taking up the baton for LC’s argument, so I posed the questions again.

The problem is that both of you are wrong. I asked those questions as a stepping stone to further discussion.

For me, these discussions serve as a way for me to learn as well as to put forth my own points. Iron sharpens iron.
 
The same can be said of you. YOU ADDRESS A QUESTION TO ME FROM A QUOTE OF @LateCatholic…are you stupid or ignorant?!~ NOW THAT IS A LEGITIMATE QUESTION being that there is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. Ignorance affords someone the ability to learn because they do not know what they do not know. Is it the best talking point you can come up with ? Over and Over and Over again to infinity and beyond @buzzlightyear…Childish grandstanding, “Oh, Look at Us Holy Ones” as we beat our chests to a pulp in the name of Christianity!~Oh, save us all just copy and paste. Save yourself some trouble too of rewriting Over and Over and Over again while you preach to the choir boys the same song and dance of nothing new.
Some in the choir are singing just a bit off key. Someone has to have the courage to say something, otherwise the entire choir is impacted. You might claim it is just that those who are singing off key are singing a cappella, but it is an entirely different song and it isn’t being sung with much in the way of melody or harmony.

Besides, it was you who wrote…
Argue his/her agenda on the grounds of feasible solutions, but not from the standpoint of arguing with an abortion advocate…for which he/she is not. I must take my brother at his word he is who he claims to be, or in this case who/what he is not.
In case you missed it, I argued that his agenda wasn’t a feasible solution because he wouldn’t use it with any other criminal behaviour. Ergo, the only reason he can suggest it is because he doesn’t think the fetus has any right to life whatsoever. That isn’t the song being sung by the choir.

And no the choir isn’t singing a triumphalist version of: Look at us the Holy Ones. The choir is singing a sad and sorrowful dirge called: Don’t Dismember and Kill Our Little Brothers and Sisters.
 
The same can be said of you. YOU ADDRESS A QUESTION TO ME FROM A QUOTE OF @LateCatholic…are you stupid or ignorant?!
It was you who embedded a quote of @LateCatholic’s into your post leaving the impression that you agreed with what he wrote, or at least are sympathetic to his thoughts.

So you don’t want his thoughts refuted because that would be unloving and uncharitable, but you don’t want others to assume you are defending his thoughts and reasons because that would be stupid or ignorant.

That only leaves the option that we ought to accept his reasoning because that is what loving people do.

Uh, no.

If that were the case, you ought to stop calling others stupid, or ignorant, or holier than thou, or sanctimonious, based solely on their reasonings. If you were practicing what you were preaching just now, you would be accepting their reasoning on its own terms just as you insist they ought to be accepting @LateCatholic’s, without any attempt to rebut any claims.

That would mean people should never question the ideas of others out of so-called love, and you cite Jesus as a model. Yet, you forget his harsh words to those who tried to turn their own traditions and rationalizations into morally and spiritually binding laws.

I wouldn’t suppose that Jesus would take kindly to those who advocate, justify, or even grudgingly permit, the dismembering, poisoning and unceremonious disposing of babies taken from their mother’s wombs. I’m just NOT seeing it.
 
It was you who embedded a quote of @LateCatholic’s into your post leaving the impression that you agreed with what he wrote, or at least are sympathetic to his thoughts.
Yes I did. I noted he outright stated he is not an advocate of abortion and I must believe a person is whom they say they are and are not. I haven’t noted anyone come out with even an illusion they are Promoting it!~Persons may have different beliefs about how one goes about procuring the end of the nightmare, but argue from that fact…Stop with your accusations and to Gehenna with your “impressions”!~
Please, stay in the choir loft high and mighty above us all, but leave me in peace. I have no inclination to believe any law on stone is going to change anyone’s heart.
 
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