Pro Choice/Abortion “Catholics”

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Rubee said:
And what does science say? Does that not matter to you?
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Science doesn’t say anything that leads those who support abortion rights to believe that a human person comes into being at the time of conception. That is the issue.
 
Yes it does. It says an individual human being begins at conception. They just don’t know or don’t care. This is why the deeper thinkers among them have retreated to the issue of controlling a woman’s body, which is a far better argument than the “not really a person” argument long discredited by, yes, knowledge of plain science. The ‘just a clamp of cells’ used to pretend to be based on science back in the day, but they can’t do that any more (those involved in serious debates–not lay people still repeating their old arguments.)
 
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Rubee said:
Yes it does. It says an individual human being begins at conception. They just don’t know or don’t care.
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They will say a human being is not a human person. They may even argue that a zygote isn’t a human being, even if it is comprised of human cellular material.

My point here is that we need not demonize people who believe in abortion rights. They aren’t evil people. They aren’t ignorant people. They are people who have studied the same scientific facts we all have, but who have come to a different conclusion. This happens on all kinds of issues, not just abortion. Two educated, intelligent people can have the exact same information and come to completely opposite conclusions. It happens all the time.

When I hear words like apathy, lazy, selfish, etc. to describe those who support abortion rights, I call it out because a) it is not the norm and b) one will never convince another to his/her way of thinking by labeling their opposition that way.

Understanding how and why other people think they way they do is the first step to persuading them to perhaps think about something a different way. I encourage all of us to remember that.
 
QwertyGirl said:
When I hear words like apathy, lazy, selfish, etc. to describe those who support abortion rights, I call it out because a) it is not the norm and b) one will never convince another to his/her way of thinking by labeling their opposition that way.
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I’m sure there were perfectly nice people who thought Black people and Native Americans and Jews were not really proper persons. I’d consider their stance the same way, whatever their personal situation. The implication of their stance is too evil to be considered just another benign opinion. And sometimes calling evil evil is what pricks the conscience.
 
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You are claiming that they have a reasonable stance, you’ve had no problem laying out their arguments, why is the argument on what a human person is, which you claim is their reasonable, non-apathetic position suddenly a point of retreat?
 
Rubee said:
You are claiming that they have a reasonable stance, you’ve had no problem laying out their arguments, why is the argument on what a human person is, which you claim is their reasonable, non-apathetic position suddenly a point of retreat?
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Not a point of retreat. There is no point in going further down that rabbit hole.

I get tired of hearing the same tired debate over abortion. Both sides declare the other evil, uneducated, or whatever other words they want to use to basically snuff out and overtalk the other.

When I see it, I call it out because I believe it is a damaging way to move forward on this topic. At the very least, I would like to see agreement that most pro-life people are not evil, and that neither are most pro-choice people. The reality is there will never be agreement on this subject between the two groups. We are still called to love each other, be kind to each other, and respect each other. Labeling people isn’t really conducive to any of those things.
 
QwertyGirl said:
Not a point of retreat. There is no point in going further down that rabbit hole.
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You mean there’s no point in making the central point of your argument: that pro-abortion arguments are reasonable and not apathetic? With respect, that’s a naked copout. You must not know their arguments for what a human person is, in which case, why push it or claim it to be reasonable? Or you must be aware of its inevitable shredding because of how bad an argument it is. I’ll assume the first since it’s more charitable than the second which would put you in the ‘knowingly supporting a weak argument that has human life/death implications’ camp.
 
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People who take it upon themselves to determine ‘human personhood’ themselves rather than doing it the old-fashioned way of looking at NATURE are doing something profoundly evil. The same evil behind every genocide and the slave trade. It’s no use telling people to be less than forthright about that harsh truth. Evidence shows that most people are increasingly anti-abortion, and it’s for a good reason. This is not like the gay marriage issue.
 
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A person can say they’re anything they want to say they are. It doesn’t make it square with reality. The reality is that a Catholic could not hold an approval in their heart for contracted infanticide and actually be a Christian at the same time, just as a square cannot be a circle. The person, whether they know it or understand it is lying to themselves over one of the two states. Either they are lying to themselves about their Christianity, and they are not in fact truly called, or they are lying to themselves about their approval of contract infanticide, and don’t actually approve of it. If there are people trying to convince themselves that they are simultaneously holding the status of Christian, while assenting to the “right” to commit murder, either directly, or by contract, at a bare minimum, they are deluded by the poison of modernism and or post modernism which are philosophies which are most definitely not of the Christian thing. There is delusion and deceit occurring one way or another. They are either deluded that murder is truly okay, or that they are truly Christian disciples of Christ. Even under “social justice”, which modernists have bent all out of shape, it is impossible to truly justify abortion. In fact Christian social justice would be to protect the helpless and weak who are unable to protect themselves or advocate for themselves. Not to be in favor of their extermination. That was the idea of eugenics which fueled the holocaust for instance.
 
Rubee said:
You mean there’s no point in making the central point of your argument: that pro-abortion arguments are reasonable and not apathetic? With respect, that’s a naked copout. You must not know their arguments for what a human person is, in which case, why push it or claim it to be reasonable? Or you must be aware of its inevitable shredding because of how bad an argument it is. I’ll assume the first since it’s more charitable than the second which would put you in the ‘knowingly supporting a weak argument that has human life/death implications’ camp.
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You just did a fine job of illustrating the point I was making.
 
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Your point is that people should be free to claim they can determine the personhood of others while not having their position seen as evil. A person can be a nazi if they want, but they cant go around complaining that people finding their support of evil apathetic or whatever. Your position and that of a nazi has the same basis: that people get to determine who humans are without reference to nature.
 
Rubee said:
Your point is that people should be free to claim they can determine the personhood of others while not having their position seen as evil. A person can be a nazi if they want, but they cant go around complaining that people finding their support of evil apathetic or whatever. Your position and that of a nazi has the same basis: that people get to determine who humans are without reference to nature.
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I never stated my view. I shared what I know to be the argument of the pro-choice people I know.

My point isn’t to debate abortion. As an agnostic I have plenty of friends and family on both side of the issue. My point is to provide some considerations for those arguing either side, so they may be more effective in their argument.

At this point, we are talking past each other. You are trying to debate why abortion is wrong, and I am debating why the method of arguing about it most people use is ineffective.

Going to mute the thread now, as you seem to be getting progressively upset or irritated and that isn’t my goal.
 
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QwertyGirl said:
I never stated my view. I shared what I know to be the argument of the pro-choice people I know.
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You have stated your view multiple times that the pro-abortion arguments should be treated like they are reasonable, and especially the worst one of them all–that a fetus in not a person. I’m pointing out that your views that you’ve repeated multiple times are no different than requesting people not to call pro-chattel slavery arguments evil.
 
QwertyGirl said:
You say another person, others say a clump of cells with the potential to become a person. Therein lies the philosophy.
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The established fact is that this is a human being we are discussing here.

The fact remains that you seem to defend the killing of another human being on the basis on a subjective philosophical position for which there is no objective evidence.

The ancient Greeks used to leave unwanted newborn babies outside on the street to die. I guess this was done based on a subjective philosophical view that this human had no inherent right to life.

If you are going to kill another human being on the grounds that they are not a person, then would it not be reasonable to provide (at the very least) evidence that was beyond all reasonable doubt?
 
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Rubee said:
Evidence shows that most people are increasingly anti-abortion, and it’s for a good reason.
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Lets see: Ireland overwhelmingly votes to legalize it and while Argentina went the right way it was close. I’d like to see your evidence.
 
absolutely not possible.
Cannot have both …and anyone who votes for a pro abortion candidate is
guilty as well

Dante
 
Nobody (at least not here) says that people who support abortion rights are evil people. Not sure where you got the idea we did.

They are tragically utterly wrong on this issue but nobody is calling them evil or that we should hate them…
 
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