Pro Choice/Abortion “Catholics”

[HarryStotle]

undead_rat:

1. Repeal child support laws as these motivate men to seek abortions for their pregnant girlfriends. I have mentioned this issue before, and it always amazes me how virulently the so-called “pro-life” crowd opposes it.

I think the better answer is that the biological father must pay a minimum of $10,000 to the mother regardless of if she has an abortion or not.
Or maybe two years worth of child care, abortion or not.

Except that would promote women having abortions since the remaining money could be pocketed by the mother free of child encumbrances, so to speak. The average cost of an abortion in the States is between $400 and $1200, depending on the state, and that means a profit of $8800 to $9600 for the woman. Speaking of incentivizing abortions, that only seems to encourage abortion by financial reward.

But why not payments of $10 000 only if the mother does not have an abortion since the abortion is funded by the government when finances are a problem?

On the other hand, the numbers of murdered pregnant and young mothers might rise precipitously, if irresponsible men are made to fork over $10 000 whenever a pregnancy occurs.

This “better answer” would seem to make the problem worse, much worse.

Are you sure you have thought this through?

 

[Start]

I literally couldn’t care less about my “official” status as a Catholic.

Why do you choose to identify as Catholic instead of Christian in a more general sense?

 

[HarryStotle]

LateCatholic:

I literally couldn’t care less about my “official” status as a Catholic.

Why do you choose to identify as Catholic instead of Christian in a more general sense?

You aren’t hinting at the fact that @LateCatholic might be being just a little deceptive going by the name Catholic when she “could care less” about her “official” status as a Catholic, are you?

It’s not a LIE, exactly? Is it?

It isn’t like using the word Catholic in your username necessarily means you are Catholic, does it?

I mean it isn’t quite like that BIG liar Kavanaugh claiming he never blanked out (had no memory) after drinking when he actually did drink enough to pass out (lose consciousness or fall asleep, but still remember,) is it?

Kavanaugh, of course, is a known inveterate liar, based on that “lie” alone, but @LateCatholic wouldn’t be deceptive in the same way that that dastardly Kavanaugh was.

And certainly, any failure to recognize the distinction between lying, playing loose with words, and being precise with words, has nothing to do with her political views or expressing those on a Catholic forum, would it?

 

[LateCatholic]

I literally couldn’t care less about my “official” status as a Catholic.

I am baptized. I am confirmed.
I was raised as a Catholic. Every member of my extended family is Catholic except my parents who became Episcopalian.
I went to Catholic School for 10 years.
I spent 10 years on the Board of Directors for Catholic Family Services in my state.
I am raising my children Catholic, but they get to decide whether to be confirmed or not. I am not forcing them to do anything. I even brought my son to Church last Sunday and tried not to squirm as the priest told us all going to R-rated movies was a sin and would destroy our soul. But I tell them the truth - I refuse to spread the lies.

On the other hand:
I believe the sex abuse scandal and the Church’s response is beyond despicable. I believe the stance on gay rights is immoral. I believe the Church’s treatment of women is terrible. I think the Church is horribly broken and corrupt. The history of the Church, even as recent as the 2010’s regarding finances is worse than a Mafia movie. I disagree with nearly every theological principle the Church presents - from original sin, the Trinity, Mary’s virginity, baptism required for salvation, man’s superiority over the environment, Intelligent Design, the idea of Hell/Purgatory, you name it. The Church’s position against science is simply laughable. I believe Christianity, especially Catholicism, and all religion in general is used by those in power to subvert the less educated, ignorant, and fearful through indoctrination. History, facts, and evidence are on my side. I challenge all of you to educate yourself before attacking me. You will be shocked when you realize the lies you are being told.

I realize this makes me a radical. And yes, I am angry that it took me so long to figure this out. So do you all think I should give up on Catholicism? Or should I continue to try (in my opinion) to bring Catholicism into the 21st century? Consider this - if YOU were alive 1000 years ago, you would be a radical as well. Or would you be OK with burning people alive that thought the Sun didn’t revolve around the Earth? Or would you give the Church half your money for indulgences so your local Bishop could feast, but you cut off a few years in Purgatory? In 500 years, I’m not sure I will still be called a radical. But…if you want to say I’m not Catholic, I’m totally fine with it.

 

[Elf01]

So do you all think I should give up on Catholicism?

Yes. I’d prefer Catholics who don’t accept Church teaching just admitted they weren’t Catholic and left the Church.

You clearly aren’t willing to conform to the Chuch, you want the Church to conform to you and I don’t see your views ever being reconciled.

 

[LateCatholic]

I call straw man. Making abortions illegal does not necessarily mean sending mothers and doctors to jail.

So - then what? Fine them? Now you’ve just made abortion OK for the rich but unavailable to the poor.

I have a suggestion: let’s stop funding PP completely and put that $580 million per year towards helping mothers keep their babies.

Have you ever worked with planned parenthood? None of their government funding goes to abortion. 96% of everything they do has nothing to do with abortion.

Consider this - 94% of all Catholic priests have never been accused of sexual abuse. But let’s take every dollar the Church has and send it to groups that support sex abuse victims.

 

[QwertyGirl]

I have a suggestion: let’s stop funding PP completely and put that $580 million per year towards helping mothers keep their babies.

This is a radical approach, and one that won’t work. If you want to reduce the number of abortions, you have to make birth control readily available and affordable. Doubtful that those that wish to defund Planned Parenthood are OK with making birth control readily available and affordable through other venues.

If Catholics want to reduce/ eliminate abortions, they need to come to terms with the fact that the majority of the population don’t share that value.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

No one can say that consciousness and life does not begin at conception.
We all started the same way. (a lot of evidence from Near Death Experiences,
show consciousness exists apart from the body.)
So all the rhetoric here, and political stereotypes too; that marginalize these
children are just like in history when other crimes against humanity were ‘legal.’

---

I’m registered Independent. But I always vote for the protection of all human life;
that doesn’t leave the most helpless painfully dying by the thousands in the U.S.A.
alone; tens of thousands world wide every single day.

---

Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, and more gave compelling philosophical arguments;
of the obvious existence of God. And most who try to reduce Jesus Christ;
cloud over the history, with non Biblical source. (i.e. The Case For Christ, Lee Strobel)

---

People can discuss, give points all they want; (I don’t judge human hearts, God does
for people;s reasons to be anesthetized to the mass murder of children by ideology and/or agenda) — but historically humankind as part of their so called idealized
helping make a better world — rely on destroying human beings they see as expendable.

---

How someone views the helpless and latches onto seducing rhetoric; even ignoring
born children or late term children who can be saved by neo-intensive care; with
painful tiny screams struggling to breath; left to die; or necks snipped; or otherwise killed; says a lot about the person. Even public figures getting a lot of support to stay
in power after being exuberant (like 'high fiving) to vote not to protect them.

---

Over all this is modernized, glossed over, human sacrifice of children.

---

God help us.

 

[Sbee0]

I assume you’re referring to Galileo. The church did no such thing to him. Yes they “persecuted” him but that was 100% a result of Galileo’s arrogance and insistence that he had authority over what is right about scripture. It was not the science.

The Church has always been very pro science. Always has in history. I suspect always will be. Based on what you’ve been saying it seems once again you are confusing the Church with fundamentalism. Not really sure why, as fundamentalism has very little in common with the Catholic faith and it’s very difficult to confuse them.

As for bringing the church “into the 21st century” there are plenty of religious organizations which fancy themselves as doing that. There’s also a good reason why people once they explore those organizations tend to quickly discover that they won’t find what they’re looking for there and move on.

 

[Sbee0]

No, but we can continue to educate people that abortion is not at all like “removing a tumor or a clump of cells”- it is murder and that ought to reduce it plenty.

I know people disagree but that disagreement has no grounds in science or in facts. Once they understand the facts I suspect that they will have a very different opinion of abortion.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

I call straw man. Making abortions illegal does not necessarily mean sending mothers and doctors to jail.

So - then what? Fine them? Now you’ve just made abortion OK for the rich but unavailable to the poor.

I have a suggestion: let’s stop funding PP completely and put that $580 million per year towards helping mothers keep their babies.

Have you ever worked with planned parenthood? None of their government funding goes to abortion. 96% of everything they do has nothing to do with abortion.

Consider this - 94% of all Catholic priests have never been accused of sexual abuse. But let’s take every dollar the Church has and send it to groups that support sex abuse victims.

Are you really claiming that 94% of all Catholic priests have been accused of sexual abuse? Let’s see your grounds for that claim?

The problem with your argument is that a priest is an autonomous individual who acts independently of Church teaching and of the laity that supports the Church. Why should the entire Church pay for that individual’s actions? The actions of abuse are NOT promoted by the Church, are they? It isn’t as if everyone who is Catholic and the institutional policy of the Church itself promotes sexual abuse and therefore the actions of abusing priests are integral to the Church itself and so it and all its members should be held accountable.

On the other hand, PP and its employees are acting completely in accordance with the corporate goals of promoting abortions. Its former “pope,” Cecile Richards would not and could not disagree with that depiction of PP. She promotes it even now that she has stepped down as the head of PP.

Your claim that “none of its government funding goes to abortion” is completely misinformed.

It Is like claiming Major League Baseball isn’t in the business of promoting baseball, but rather it gets almost all of its business from renting out seats at baseball stadiums and selling refreshments. Ergo, it’s business is fundamentally the renting of chairs and selling hot dogs, beer and pop, and not baseball. Yeah, sure.

Laughable.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

I have a suggestion: let’s stop funding PP completely and put that $580 million per year towards helping mothers keep their babies.

This is a radical approach, and one that won’t work. If you want to reduce the number of abortions, you have to make birth control readily available and affordable. Doubtful that those that wish to defund Planned Parenthood are OK with making birth control readily available and affordable through other venues.

If Catholics want to reduce/ eliminate abortions, they need to come to terms with the fact that the majority of the population don’t share that value.

No, actually, if we want to stop abortions we need to quit excusing sexual irresponsibility by refusing to make people accountable for their own decisions, as if human beings can not make responsible moral decisions where the lives of others are at stake.

Yeah, keep telling people they can’t help but act irresponsibly and that will cure all moral ills affecting society, that will surely fix things. Treating autonomous moral agents like moral infants, while permitting pernicious others to take advantage of them does sound like a workable strategy. Not.

 

[Arwing]

Are you really claiming that 94% of all Catholic priests have been accused of sexual abuse? Let’s see your grounds for that claim?

You might want to read that again, they said that 94% haven’t been accused, presumably to give a comparable statistic to the other claim about PP.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Similarly, a free society cannot exists if one group can mandate what other citizens must do with their bodies. The question, of course, is then when are we talking about TWO people, not one. And when does that second person’s rights trump the first’s?

That might be a reasonable question if comparable rights are being discussed. But they are not comparable. For one of those two persons you have the right not to be burdened by a pregnancy. For the other person you have the right to live. Of those two rights, the right to live seems a bit more important than the right not to endure a burden for a few months.

Now, most people’s personal position on this forum is is that it begins at conception. This is a logical concept, but it is NOT realistic today to hold that view from a political standpoint.

It is not a political question, so addressing it purely from a political standpoint is incorrect.

Specifically, we do not have the infrastructure in place to support a ban on abortion.

Nor do we really have the infrastructure in place to support a ban on rape. Yet we do try to ban rape (as we should.)

Would you be willing to assign social security numbers at conception, or give pregnant women full child benefits, or declare a fetus a citizen?

The first is unnecessary. The second one is a reasonable proposal. So is the third one.

The objective is to make abortion unnecessary,

An objective. Not the only objective.

if the goal is to make abortion unnecessary, what must be done? I don’t want to rehash this entire thread, but if you look at the statistics, facts, and evidence, the Republican platform has ZERO desire to accomplish this.

Let us suppose for a moment that what you have said here is true. That still would not support abortion as a solution.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Are you really claiming that 94% of all Catholic priests have been accused of sexual abuse? Let’s see your grounds for that claim?

You might want to read that again, they said that 94% haven’t been accused, presumably to give a comparable statistic to the other claim about PP.

Thank you for correcting me. I really should put my reading glasses on and turn up the contrast on my tablet.

However, my point about the difference between the Church and PP remains. As does the comparable statistic to MLB.

 

[Start]

If you want to reduce the number of abortions, you have to make birth control readily available and affordable.

There are other options.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Aw heck no, if the decision to kill or not kill the child belongs to the woman alone because it is her body, then the consequences of that choice can be paid for by her wallet alone.

 

[LateCatholic]

Are you really claiming that 94% of all Catholic priests have been accused of sexual abuse? Let’s see your grounds for that claim?

I said 94% have NOT been accused. The number generally agreed upon is 4-8% of priests are accused, convicted, or indicted of sexual assault against minors.

Your claim that “none of its government funding goes to abortion” is completely misinformed.

No it’s not. It’s the law.

It Is like claiming Major League Baseball isn’t in the business of promoting baseball, but rather it gets almost all of its business from renting out seats at baseball stadiums and selling refreshments.

This is both an incorrect statement and not applicable. Planned Parenthood is a non-profit. They make no money off ANY services. They get NO “funds” from the government directly. There is NO “line item” in the budget. If a patient needs a cancer screening, for example, and medicaid pays for it, the bill for that service is paid for by the federal government - just like it would for any other hospital. The total amount of funds coming to PP is determined by the services requested. If no one wants an STD test or a cancer screening, for example, they get no funds.

Legally, defunding PP makes little sense because you would have to defund all organizations that perform those same women’s services. That is not the way PP is funded.

 

[LateCatholic]

Specifically, we do not have the infrastructure in place to support a ban on abortion.

We do have the infrastructure in place to support a ban on rape. There are no rapists that go free because the prison system or criminal system cannot support prosecuting them. And even if there were, the issue would be SCALE, not the structure. We do not have any structure or mindshare whatsoever, especially the conservatives, to ban abortion AND support the influx of babies.

That still would not support abortion as a solution.

I thought I made it clear I do not support abortion personally. My position is that banning it outright is neither a viable solution nor one that is consistent with American ideology. Until we provide the appropriate services, infrastructure, and policies, banning abortion is not the right approach. My point in this thread is that the Republican platform is NOT pro-life. It is pro-birth, to get your votes. As a pro-life platform, it is rife with inconsistencies and immoralities.

 

[Elf01]

We do not have any structure or mindshare whatsoever, especially the conservatives, to ban abortion AND support the influx of babies.

Turn back time a little:

We don’t have the infrastructure to ban slavery and support the influx of freed slaves who now need jobs etc.

The infrastructure can be put in place if the will is there.