Pro choice but not Pro Abortion

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Easy. Not everyone believs that abortion is killing an “unborn baby.” There are many, like me, who see abortion as nothing more than the elimination of a foetus and no amount of sentimental lanuage will persuade us otherwise. My time on these forums have actually confirmed my beliefs about abortion and also my findings that the so-called “pro-life” group is doing nothing more than repeating the same tired cliches and arguments.
You are incorrect.

Scientifically incorrect as well.

I am the son of a doctor, and her medical textbooks say that life begins at conception.

Also, a baby at 8 weeks (The usual abortion time if I’m not mistaken) has functioning organs, as well as unique DNA.

I’m sure you attempt to follow a logical thought process, but when it comes down to it, you STILL can’t hide from the truth. Even behind a screen of “logic” because that logic is false.

ONe more thing. Scientists and people everywhere believe that Jellyfish are living creatures, Heck, if I went out in public and started killing jellyfish (in a tank or something) then I’d most likely get in trouble.
HOWEVER, you fail to realize that Jellyfish don’t have a brain, a heart, or really anything else. Yet you call them living beings, deserving of life.
Unborn children have a brain, a heart, all that, and more importantly a SOUL.

You disgust me
 
ONe more thing. Scientists and people everywhere believe that Jellyfish are living creatures, Heck, if I went out in public and started killing jellyfish (in a tank or something) then I’d most likely get in trouble.
HOWEVER, you fail to realize that Jellyfish don’t have a brain, a heart, or really anything else. Yet you call them living beings, deserving of life.
Unborn children have a brain, a heart, all that, and more importantly a SOUL.
Another example: you can be sure of a hefty fine if you destroy the unhatched egg of a bald eagle. Are we placing higher value on unborn non-humans than unborn humans? Sad.
You disgust me
That’s uncalled for.
 
the irony here is that there is no intellectual basis for pro-choice postions. All the medical evidence and human moral law points to a baby being life. Only in the recent few years have we tried to torture the logic and facts to allow abortion without calling it murder.

The pro-choice postion has no logical start point for life. A baby is a baby only becuase of the mother’s emotions or choices? Some pro-choice people are so pro-abortion that they will support the killing of a child who manages to survive an abortion procedure. A living breathing child out of the womb. (See: Obama, Barak H. for an example of such a person).

The specious arguments that revolve around being unable to live on its own apply to other conditions in life such as life support an dare merely the hysterical rantings of people who’s relgions (humanism) has overcome their reason.

Science, morality, the basic human-ness of our natures, all are on the side of those who demand protection of all human life. Only those who are in favor of eugenics (Planned Parenthood), have abandoned the scientic method, or are simply so selfish as to believe that their own needs trump all other persons can still hold to the Pro-Choice position.

While the murders continue, we can know that like other horrible crimes against humanity (slavery, the Holocost) time is against those who are on the wrong side of history.
 
Easy. Not everyone believes that abortion is killing an “unborn baby.” There are many, like me, who see abortion as nothing more than the elimination of a foetus and no amount of sentimental language will persuade us otherwise. My time on these forums have actually confirmed my beliefs about abortion and also my findings that the so-called “pro-life” group is doing nothing more than repeating the same tired cliches and arguments.
Pong, the same old arguments are constantly repeated because they are the truth. No need to go out and find different arguments when you have the truth already.

Your view is that killing an unborn baby is always morally acceptable. If that is the case, when, in your view, does murder become wrong? Do you use some criteria based on something objective? Is it wrong to abort a child the day before it is due?
 
Yes.

Honey, you don’t have any say in whether your girlfriend obtains an abortion. You cannot stop her.

And, of course, your girlfriend would not have any reason to consdier an abortion if you are abiding by church teaching and refraining from sex until marriage.

Not all things should be choices. Murder is one of those things.

And, in case you haven’t noticed, you don’t have a “choice” about whether you wear a seatbelt, smoke in restaurants in most cities, drive any speed you wish, murder, rape, steal, pay taxes, or litter.

And, abortion is not a Christian issue. It is a human issue. The killing of babies is of concern to all people.

Why do you want other people to have the choice to kill someone? Do you not believe killing other people is wrong?

On what do you base your position that killing a baby should be a legal choice?

There is no such thing as being “pro-choice”. What a person who says they are “pro-choice” really means is they are in favor of the legal status of baby killing.
I’m just using the quotes because some of the statements here are why abortions are on the rise again and we aren’t accomplishing our goals.

First of all, the OP stated a postion that is held by MOST Americans… in fact, it’s held by the majority of the people in the world actually - OF COURSE, that doesn’t make it correct through…

Secondly, Yes you can be Pro-Choice and NOT Pro-Abortion, no one is Pro-Abortion (well almost no one). The issue is a woman’s right to choose.

Thirdly the OP makes the correct statement that many people in American aren’t Christian. I believe that is incorrect but many “Christians” are Pro-Choice.

So in contrast to 1Ke statements what can be done?!?!?

Problem and Solution - The United States is a Democracy… at least for now, and as long as it is we supposedly live under the belief that the majority should rule. Sadly right now the majority believe in a Woman’s right to choose… because… (and this leads into the Pro-Choice vs Pro-Aboriton) they do NOT believe that it is murder.

IF you do NOT believe something is alive, then it’s not murder, plain and simple.

EVEN the Catholic Church believed for hundreds of years that a baby was not alive until after the quickening (look it up if you don’t believe me - I believe some Orthodox Bishops still hold this view as well). The quickening would be when the mother could actually feel the baby. Thus in OUR old definition most abortions would not be murder.

So some might think I’m attacking the Church with this… I’m not because the point is very important. Once the Church knew that life began at conception, other teachings fell into place and we have the theology behind our beliefs in this area which have been revealed to us. (Praise the Lord!)

Yet others are still in the darkness, the majority is still in the darkness actually.

So what to do?

The first thing we have to do is to continue our support of the standard Pro-Life groups (no not the ones that promote violence - and yes there are a few).

Secondly we look outside of those standard groups to see how we can get the abortions numbers back down. All sign point to economic prosperity. Most people don’t realize that the statement about not worrying about an abortion if they were married is a prime example of the problem. The MAJORITY of abortions are procured by mothers who already have other children. That’s right, most don’t use it as birth control.

Thridly we focus extra resources, perhaps even some from the standard groups, to groups helping women trying to make that choice. If we can help them see the light, if we can help them make the right choice and help them feel like they have a chance to raise the child in a decent environment then that is one more life.

Fourth - we need to support politicians who are worried about more than just the upper class. We need health care and we need jobs for impoverished Americans. That too will save lives (we can see that from Clinton’s years in the 90).

Finally - We step up the Education! Most people don’t realize that many young people today who group up in the Pro-Choice 90s are more Pro-Life than the kids growing up today? We need to get back to this… especially for the kids who have had abstinence only education the post 7 years. Why? because it’s their group that abortions are going up… remember what I said about most people not believing like we do?

So what’s the education going to accomplish?

Along with the other stuff it accomplishes this:

If we can have better economic prosperity with better education then the number of actual abortions will start to truly decrease at a decent rate again.

If those people aren’t worried about feeding their family and the kids growing up have a good education and are taught to think then we can educate them.

If we can educate them in lines of thought in regards to life begining at conception which are NOT purely Christian then we can reach them with Science / Philosophy rather than Religion (Separation of Church and State remember?)

If we can reach them, then we have a voting block than can truly vote to outlaw abortion. If the majority of the people decide it should be done away with it can but… this has to be a long range plan with philosophical losses along the way… so we give in one area… if it saves ONE child’s life, my pride is worth that.

In the long run it could save millions… that’s my opinion at least.

Joe
 
Is it wrong that I believe woman should have the choice to have an abortion even though I would never EVER choose let my girlfriend (for example) get one.

As an American I love this country for it being free of choice. Not everyone in this country is a Christian.

I would never ask for someone to get an abortion (if it came to it, I would even take care of the baby my self), but I still want other people to have that choice.

Any opinion on this?
Yes, you are wrong. But mostly just confused. Others have given some wonderful insight. 👍
 
Easy. Not everyone believs that abortion is killing an “unborn baby.” There are many, like me, who see abortion as nothing more than the elimination of a foetus and no amount of sentimental lanuage will persuade us otherwise. My time on these forums have actually confirmed my beliefs about abortion and also my findings that the so-called “pro-life” group is doing nothing more than repeating the same tired cliches and arguments.
Sorry, but the truth can never be held as a cliche. The arguments of the pro-choicers are what we shoud be calling the same old tired cliches. The biggest problem is that pro-choicers place no value on an unborn human. Even many pro-choicers agree that an abortion is the killing of a human life, but claim that it has no value because it is unborn.

We pro-lifers are only sharing the truth that an unborn baby is human and has value. Sorry Pong, but pro-choicers like you are nothing more than selfish people with hardened hearts who want to have their cake and eat it too. Abortion is the selfish act of putting yourself ahead of someone who can’t defend themselves. Sad, very sad indeed.
 
Secondly, Yes you can be Pro-Choice and NOT Pro-Abortion, no one is Pro-Abortion (well almost no one). The issue is a woman’s right to choose.
Perhaps we should visit the definition of pro-abortion:
Merriam Webster Online Dictionary:
favoring the legalization of abortion
By saying that you are pro-choice, you are saying that a woman should have the right to choose to have an abortion.

IF A=B and A=C, then B=C.
 
Another example: you can be sure of a hefty fine if you destroy the unhatched egg of a bald eagle. Are we placing higher value on unborn non-humans than unborn humans? Sad.
Yes indeed.
That’s uncalled for.
Perhaps, but I’d be lying if I said otherwise.
I live in a place where a majority of the population is pro-abortion and totally ignorant of scientific fact. Yet they aren’t religious, let alone Catholic.
Pong is apprently “Catholic” and that just sickens me.
 
Secondly, Yes you can be Pro-Choice and NOT Pro-Abortion, no one is Pro-Abortion (well almost no one). The issue is a woman’s right to choose.
Sorry, but how can one be “pro choice” yet not be pro abortion? One who claims this is claiming they may not commit abortion but think it is legitimate for others to “choose” such an action.

That means they allow it. It is a distinction without a difference.
 
Easy. Not everyone believs that abortion is killing an “unborn baby.” There are many, like me, who see abortion as nothing more than the elimination of a foetus
Wow… I don’t know how much more Orwellian you can get. Newspeak, right there. Makes me think I should read 1984 again. Murder of unborn baby = elimination of a fetus just like murder of Jews just for being Jews = Final Solution.

Fetus means “young one.” Young one of what species? We are speaking here of the human species. So it is the “elimination” of a human “young one.”

A fetus metabolizes nutrition and puts out waste products, grows and develops, and reacts to stimuli. That is the biological definition of life.

So “elimination of a fetus” in a human being is the destruction of something that is a) alive and b) human. In other words, a HUMAN LIFE.

That rational logic makes me sentimental, huh?

And before you go off on how they are not independent beings and can’t be counted as “persons” …well, neither are newborns, two month olds, six month olds, or 18 month olds. They all need food/water provided to them, shelter, clothing, and heating/cooking energy they cannot supply for themselves. So at what point do these human lives count as worthy to be allowed to live, Pong? How far down Peter Singer’s road do you live?
 
Perhaps, but I’d be lying if I said otherwise.
I live in a place where a majority of the population is pro-abortion and totally ignorant of scientific fact. Yet they aren’t religious, let alone Catholic.
Pong is apprently “Catholic” and that just sickens me.
Let’s remember charity. “Otherwise” does not need to be said, either. In cases like this, a charitable approach will do more than insults and degradation…doesn’t the opposition throw that garbage at us enough without followers of Christ tossing it around?

I agree that certain views are disgusting–let us hold those views in contempt; not the people that hold them. For the way you treat even the least of His people, that is how you treat the Lord (cf Matthew 25:31-46–but I’m sure you already know that.) Peace be with you.
 
Let’s remember charity. “Otherwise” does not need to be said, either. In cases like this, a charitable approach will do more than insults and degradation…doesn’t the opposition throw that garbage at us enough without followers of Christ tossing it around?

I agree that certain views are disgusting–let us hold those views in contempt; not the people that hold them. For the way you treat even the least of His people, that is how you treat the Lord (cf Matthew 25:31-46–but I’m sure you already know that.) Peace be with you.
This would be more understandable if I had openly insulted someone.
I believe there is nothing wrong with making my disgust for people like that known.
 
This would be more understandable if I had openly insulted someone.
I believe there is nothing wrong with making my disgust for people like that known.
“You disgust me” is not an insult?

It boggles the mind.
 
Quote, “Pro-lifers that do not actively speak out or work against abortion are pro-choice by default.” --Gregg Cunningham, The Center for Bio-Ethical Reform.

I happen to agree with this statement 100%. I also believe that so called pro-choice Catholics are by default not Catholic.
 
briang72:

“Originally Posted by jwashu
‘Secondly, Yes you can be Pro-Choice and NOT Pro-Abortion, no one is Pro-Abortion (well almost no one). The issue is a woman’s right to choose.’”


Yes, this is absolutely correct. Neither you nor I nor anyone on this forum knows with certainty what the woman will choose. Strip her of the right to choose and you strip her of God-given free will. If her choice leads her to Purgatory or Hell, as you might imagine it could, she alone is accountable to God. I do not believe that you or I or anyone on this forum will be asked to escort her to Purgatory or Hell due to complicity

Pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion. Pro-abortion attempts to sway women to abort. Pro-choice allows women to decide for themselves.

jwashu:

Please go to “Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Social Justice” and read the many posts found on the topic, “Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supportinig abortion?” This became quite a heated thread, and you may find it enlightening.

marietta
 
Easy. Not everyone believs that abortion is killing an “unborn baby.” There are many, like me, who see abortion as nothing more than the elimination of a foetus and no amount of sentimental lanuage will persuade us otherwise. My time on these forums have actually confirmed my beliefs about abortion and also my findings that the so-called “pro-life” group is doing nothing more than repeating the same tired cliches and arguments.
They are not cliches-they are the truth And we keep repeating them becuase we keep hearing the same nonsense over and over again

. For instance you seem to hide behind the term " fetus" to justify abortion. Well what kind of “fetus” is it? A dog fetus? A cow fetus? or is it a HUMAN fetus?. And if it is a human fetus I assume you are aware that this is just one of the many stages of development for a human being. So if ‘feuts’ is fair game why not baby, or toddler,or teen or senior citizen. Can you give me single reason why a day old baby should have more rights than it did the day before?
 
To me, the ones who say abortion isn’t murder have probably never been pregnant. If you have, you may not have realized all the benefits throughout the term.

Please see the YouTube video with an open heart & mind:
Abortion Dumpster Scandal - Women’s Advisory Clinic

It may change your life forever on what abortion is and isn’t.

Saying “I’m Pro choice but not Pro Abortion” is an oxymoron.
 
briang72:

“Originally Posted by jwashu
‘Secondly, Yes you can be Pro-Choice and NOT Pro-Abortion, no one is Pro-Abortion (well almost no one). The issue is a woman’s right to choose.’”


Yes, this is absolutely correct. Neither you nor I nor anyone on this forum knows with certainty what the woman will choose. Strip her of the right to choose and you strip her of God-given free will. If her choice leads her to Purgatory or Hell, as you might imagine it could, she alone is accountable to God. I do not believe that you or I or anyone on this forum will be asked to escort her to Purgatory or Hell due to complicity

Pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion. Pro-abortion attempts to sway women to abort. Pro-choice allows women to decide for themselves.
There is no right to do evil. Pro choice means one thinks it acceptable for others to abort. Substitute bank robbery, rape, or some other grave evil and explain how allowing such things is a “choice”.
 
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