Pro choice but not Pro Abortion

[Calliso]

So why does the day old child have a right to life it didnt have the day before?

Because a born child is protected legally under the law an unborn child is not. Though I would not have an issue with and do think that up to a certain point a late term fetus should be protected under the law. And by up to a certain point I mean lets say a 6 month old fetus is indangering it;s mothers life. A fetus’s right to live should never override it;s mothers right to live. However simply saying I have carried it for 6 monthes and suddenly I just donlt want it I donlt think should be a legal reason to have an abortion at that stage. Course that can get complicated cause as other people have pointed out to me some people aren;t even aware they are pregnant until then. But as of right now my position stands where it is.

 

[estesbob]

Because a born child is protected legally under the law an unborn child is not. Though I would not have an issue with and do think that up to a certain point a late term fetus should be protected under the law.

What is the rationale for that?

And by up to a certain point I mean lets say a 6 month old fetus is indangering it;s mothers life. A fetus’s right to live should never override it;s mothers right to live. However simply saying I have carried it for 6 monthes and suddenly I just donlt want it I donlt think should be a legal reason to have an abortion at that stage. Course that can get complicated cause as other people have pointed out to me some people aren;t even aware they are pregnant until then. But as of right now my position stands where it is.

It is only complicated when one is trying to rationalize taking human life. I dont see anyting complicated at all.

 

[Pong]

Your stance insults everyone that lives and has ever lived, especially those adopted.

Oh really? That’s very amusing to me because I too am adopted. I know that my biological mother strongly considered abortion because she has told me so. You know what? I don’t really care; it doesn’t change my views on the issue to know that I could have been aborted. So nice try, but no dice.

By the very definition of being Catholic, one is pro-life. That is what is being Catholic means.

Really? I thought Catholic meant “universal.” Apparently someone changed the definition very recently.

If you attempt to again, you’re commiting sacrilege, and have therefore added another Mortal Sin to your soul.

You, and many others here, are making a huge leap by automatically asuming that I recive communion. It is none of your business if I do or do not, but suffice it to say I am very well versed on what the Church has to say about these issues.

You are not Catholic.

My sacramental records say otherwise.

As a Catholic, I am obliged to inform you of this. Otherswise I may be held responisible for your fate. simply because I did not warn you.

:yawn: You are not telling me anything I haven’t heard a hundred times before, but if it makes you feel better…

If something is not done about this, and you die while in this state, you will spend eternity suffering in Hell.

You must be omniscient to know the state of my soul right now…

 

[Calliso]

So where do you draw the line and what moral or biological basis do you use to draw this line? Human life is taken regadless. Dont you think it is a bit arrogant for mankind to decide who deserves to live and who deserves to die? When we acpet aborton are we any different than those who decided blacks only counted as 3/5 a human or jews were sub-human?

I think accepting abortion for a 8 week old embyro up to viablity/ ablity to feel pain., is far different then deciding that blacks are not fully human or jews are only subhuman.

As for where I draw the line I draw the line at the ablity of the fetus to survive being removed from the womb. Also I draw the line at the ablity to feel pain. Though most of the stuff I have read says that while it it not 100% known most stuff I have read seem to put the ablity to feel pain at over 20 weeks and that is super close to viablity anyway. And I do think that if it is possible pain medication should be given to a fetus that needs to be aborted for medical reasons after 20-21 weeks. Up until those points though the mother should retain her right to terminate the pregnancy. And fortunately most women do choose to abort very early.

 

[Calliso]

Oh really? That’s very amusing to me because I too am adopted. I know that my biological mother strongly considered abortion because she has told me so. You know what? I don’t really care; it doesn’t change my views on the issue to know that I could have been aborted. So nice try, but no dice.

Really? I thought Catholic meant “universal.” Apparently someone changed the definition very recently.

You, and many others here, are making a huge leap by automatically asuming that I recive communion. It is none of your business if I do or do not, but suffice it to say I am very well versed on what the Church has to say about these issues.

My sacramental records say otherwise.

:yawn: You are not telling me anything I haven’t heard a hundred times before, but if it makes you feel better…

You must be omniscient to know the state of my soul right now…

Yeah you know the whole what if your mother had decided to exercise her right to choose and you weren;t born argument definately doesn;t hold water with me. I mean I know my mother is firmly prochoice. I also know she chose to have me. And you know if she had chosen to abort me I wouldn;t care because I wouldn;t be here to care!

 

[Pong]

And you know if she had chosen to abort me I wouldn;t care because I wouldn;t be here to care!

:clapping:

 

[Philothea53]

Yes indeed.

Perhaps, but I’d be lying if I said otherwise.
I live in a place where a majority of the population is pro-abortion and totally ignorant of scientific fact. Yet they aren’t religious, let alone Catholic.
Pong is apprently “Catholic” and that just sickens me.

I disagree. Pong is not Catholic. You CANNOT be Catholic AND pro abortion. Pong is a protestant in need of prayer and reconciliation.

 

[Calliso]

What is the rationale for that?

It is only complicated when one is trying to rationalize taking human life. I dont see anyting complicated at all.

What is the rationale for what my view on when abortion should be legal and when it should not be. Or the rationale behind making abortion legal in the first place? Yes it may not be complicated to you but to other people this is a complicated thing. I know I myself have changed my opinion over time. I mean I at one time when I was much younger was mostly prolife except I thought abortion should be legal for rape and life threatening medical issues. And even now I will read stuff from both sides that cause me to pause and think you know I didn;t consider that before…or I did not realize that or I did not think of it that way.

 

[lauramelissa]

Just a couple of quick comments before I give my .02…

I thought I saw someone mention a while back that ad hominem is against forum rules? If it is, I guess it gets set aside when it comes to trying to convince people on hot button issues like abortion.

I’m an agnostic, so correct me if I’m wrong… but since you are a Catholic, I don’t think you are supposed to be making the judgment the guy upstairs is only fit to make, right? So maybe telling people who think differently than you that they’re going to burn in hell is slightly out of order.

So let’s see… we’ve gone through the argument of conception vs. birth, the attempted convincing via exaggerated examples, and it seems like plenty of post space has been wasted debating semantics in order to prove that pro-choice people are murderous beings with no regard for life. I always find it’s much easier to degrade a position by attempting to de-humanize the other side - I mean, clearly those of us who are pro-choice see it as a clear cut issue.

Wrong. I am pro-choice because I recognize that the world is not cut and dry. Not every aborted baby is the result of a selfish woman who doesn’t want to deal with the consequences of a one-night stand. You’ll notice I reference the unborn as a baby - this is because I do not dispute that regardless of the debates running the scales down to the tiniest detail trying to prove it is either human or not, I recognize a baby/fetus (whichever term you prefer) as the beginning stage of human life. So please, don’t fool yourself into thinking being pro-choice is somehow “easy” for everyone who holds the position - but then, having a baby isn’t easy either, so I think we can agree that no matter what the choice, life is never the same, no?

I think it’s also important to reinforce the fact that not all pro-choice people would have abortions themselves. I would not have an abortion because I am fortunate: I am financially stable, I come from a loving family, and I have access to the resources I would need to raise a baby or give it up for adoption. Furthermore, I would be in a safe place during my pregnancy, and I would maintain a healthy lifestyle to ensure the baby was brought into the world with the best possible chance at leading a healthy, happy life whether I decide to keep it or give it up to another loving family. So in a perfect world, I would agree with the positions held by pro-life activists - but unfortunately, I cannot say that all women in the world are as fortunate as I am. Therefore, I recognize that while it would be nice if things were the way you say they are, no amount of “well you shouldn’t have had sex” or “well you shouldn’t do drugs during pregnancy” or “well you shouldn’t get tied up with an abusive partner” is going to solve the problem of women who for one reason or another, should not be subjecting a child to the world they would otherwise be brought up in.

 

[Calliso]

I disagree. Pong is not Catholic. You CANNOT be Catholic AND pro abortion. Pong is a protestant in need of prayer and reconciliation.

Personally I think it is up to God to decide who is Catholic and who is not. And even if he is not Catholic why does that automatically make him a protestant? Can;t he/she simply be a prochoice Christian?

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

**I am so very sad after reading this thread. Life begins at conception. To end the life of an innocent is murder. An unborn baby is innocent so any killing of them (“justified” or not) is murder. I could never condone murder. How can anyone???

I pray that God opens the hearts and minds of those who believe that abortion for any reason during any stage of development is not a horrible violent act against humanity’s most innocent.**:crying:

 

[Philothea53]

Personally I think it is up to God to decide who is Catholic and who is not. And even if he is not Catholic why does that automatically make him a protestant? Can;t he/she simply be a prochoice Christian?

Hmm, the Church doesn’t decide who is Catholic? Since when?

Pong is a protestant (little p) because he protests against basics truths of the Catholic Church. How is it that I can’t say he isn’t Catholic and call him protestant but you call him ‘prochoice Christian’?

 

[RichT]

Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that any Catholic who supports abortion has pretty much ex-communicated themselves? Pong can continue to ignore church teaching as long as he wants to.:banghead: He will have to answer to a much higher power than any of us. Pong, I’m sure you will be prayed for.

Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, maybe we should move on. What happened to the person who started ths thread?

 

[Calliso]

Just a couple of quick comments before I give my .02…

I thought I saw someone mention a while back that ad hominem is against forum rules? If it is, I guess it gets set aside when it comes to trying to convince people on hot button issues like abortion.

I’m an agnostic, so correct me if I’m wrong… but since you are a Catholic, I don’t think you are supposed to be making the judgment the guy upstairs is only fit to make, right? So maybe telling people who think differently than you that they’re going to burn in hell is slightly out of order.

So let’s see… we’ve gone through the argument of conception vs. birth, the attempted convincing via exaggerated examples, and it seems like plenty of post space has been wasted debating semantics in order to prove that pro-choice people are murderous beings with no regard for life. I always find it’s much easier to degrade a position by attempting to de-humanize the other side - I mean, clearly those of us who are pro-choice see it as a clear cut issue.

Wrong. I am pro-choice because I recognize that the world is not cut and dry. Not every aborted baby is the result of a selfish woman who doesn’t want to deal with the consequences of a one-night stand. You’ll notice I reference the unborn as a baby - this is because I do not dispute that regardless of the debates running the scales down to the tiniest detail trying to prove it is either human or not, I recognize a baby/fetus (whichever term you prefer) as the beginning stage of human life. So please, don’t fool yourself into thinking being pro-choice is somehow “easy” for everyone who holds the position - but then, having a baby isn’t easy either, so I think we can agree that no matter what the choice, life is never the same, no?

I think it’s also important to reinforce the fact that not all pro-choice people would have abortions themselves. I would not have an abortion because I am fortunate: I am financially stable, I come from a loving family, and I have access to the resources I would need to raise a baby or give it up for adoption. Furthermore, I would be in a safe place during my pregnancy, and I would maintain a healthy lifestyle to ensure the baby was brought into the world with the best possible chance at leading a healthy, happy life whether I decide to keep it or give it up to another loving family. So in a perfect world, I would agree with the positions held by pro-life activists - but unfortunately, I cannot say that all women in the world are as fortunate as I am. Therefore, I recognize that while it would be nice if things were the way you say they are, no amount of “well you shouldn’t have had sex” or “well you shouldn’t do drugs during pregnancy” or “well you shouldn’t get tied up with an abusive partner” is going to solve the problem of women who for one reason or another, should not be subjecting a child to the world they would otherwise be brought up in.

Great post! And I agree it is not cut and dry. I should also add that one argument I here alot from many prolifers is how most women regret their abortions. And while this is true in some cases…it is untrue in so many others that it doesn;t really make a good argument either. There are plenty of women who have had abortions and feel no guilt for it.

 

[Calliso]

Hmm, the Church doesn’t decide who is Catholic? Since when?

Pong is a protestant (little p) because he protests against basics truths of the Catholic Church. How is it that I can’t say he isn’t Catholic and call him protestant but you call him ‘prochoice Christian’?

Eh you made a good point. And yeah I see now while you would call him a protestant little p. I was thinking you were putting into the one of the Protestant capital P groups if you know what I mean. So I was like huh. As for Pong being judged for his views on abortion well I do think it is up to God on that and I think perhaps it would be going way to far at this point to make claims like this soul is in danger and what not. Cause really not one of us here knows for 100% sure where we will end up when we die. And we will all have things to answer for…and if purgatory exists I would not be surprised if many of us end up there. But that is not up to me to decide or anyone else here only God.

And I should also note that last point wasn;t directed directly towards you but to other posters.

 

[Belgarion]

Great post! And I agree it is not cut and dry. I should also add that one argument I here alot from many prolifers is how most women regret their abortions. And while this is true in some cases…it is untrue in so many others that it doesn;t really make a good argument either. There are plenty of women who have had abortions and feel no guilt for it.

And there are murderers and rapists who don’t feel guilt either.

Guilt isn’t the problem here. Guilt is good because it lets you know you’re doing something wrong.

People who don’t feel guilt are just further down the moral sewer than others.

But it is a clear cut issue. THe Church has infallible teachings (Accurately supported by science) and you either accept it (along with accepting science) or you don’t (and reject science as well)

 

[Philothea53]

Eh you made a good point. And yeah I see now while you would call him a protestant little p. I was thinking you were putting into the one of the Protestant capital P groups if you know what I mean. So I was like huh.

Wow. It’s not often that someone responds as nicely as you just did when they are disagreed with. Thank you. God bless you!

 

[Calliso]

Wow. It’s not often that someone responds as nicely as you just did when they are disagreed with. Thank you. God bless you!

God bless you too!

 

[estesbob]

I think accepting abortion for a 8 week old embyro up to viablity/ ablity to feel pain., is far different then deciding that blacks are not fully human or jews are only subhuman.

Why? In both cases society decided that some forms of human life were worth less than others. They were as firmly convinced of the rightness of their view as you are.

Are you suggesting that human life that can not feel pain is less than human? Is a 1 day old viable on its own?

As for where I draw the line I draw the line at the ablity of the fetus to survive being removed from the womb. Also I draw the line at the ablity to feel pain. Though most of the stuff I have read says that while it it not 100% known most stuff I have read seem to put the ablity to feel pain at over 20 weeks and that is super close to viablity anyway. And I do think that if it is possible pain medication should be given to a fetus that needs to be aborted for medical reasons after 20-21 weeks. Up until those points though the mother should retain her right to terminate the pregnancy. And fortunately most women do choose to abort very early.

The child can not survive on its own unitl at least the age of 8. And how does the ability to feel pain determine ones right to life.? Does killing ones child early mean the less the child looks like a human being the less its right to life? (Like having black skin was once cause for a lesser right life?)

BTW-by “terminate her preganacy” you mean klill her child, correct? Please lets not cheapen the conversation by resorting to euphanisms.

Again there is nothing at all complicated about this. Either human life deserves protection or it does not. The mental gyrations you go though to try and justify supporting this horror is proof positive of the paucity of your position

 

[estesbob]

Great post! And I agree it is not cut and dry. I should also add that one argument I here alot from many prolifers is how most women regret their abortions. And while this is true in some cases…it is untrue in so many others that it doesn;t really make a good argument either. There are plenty of women who have had abortions and feel no guilt for it.

In all my years of counseling I only ran across one women who did not regret her abortion. Women kill their child in the womb becuse society convinces them it is ok. When the horror of what they have done finally hits them society turns it’s back on them.

Of course I guess one could also claim that a plantation master never felt guilt about enslaving those also deemed less than human but I am sure you would not claim that made it right?