Pro-choice Catholics

[kentuckyliz]

I was pro-choice until I started praying the Rosary. I guess you can’t say “blessed is the fruit of thy womb” 53 times a day and not be changed by it.

I also learned as an adult that I was unplanned and unexpected (but welcomed)–I was also born less than ten years before Roe v Wade. I totally understand the survivor complex people have, who are conceived after Roe v Wade. One-third of their generation is missing.

One comedian, is it Bill Cosby?, jokes that his mother says, “I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!” Well, after Roe v Wade, that really isn’t funny any more. It’s like saying, “I should have aborted you!” – which some parents have told their child.

Let’s hear from the prophet Paul VI in Humanae Vitae:

1. Upright men can even better convince themselves of the solid grounds on which the teaching of the Church in this field is based, if they care to reflect upon the consequences of methods of artificial birth control. Let them consider, first of all, how wide and easy a road would thus be opened up towards conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality. Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men—especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point—have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law, so that they must not be offered some easy means of eluding its observance. It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anti-conceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion.
   
   Let it be considered also that a dangerous weapon would thus be placed in the hands of those public authorities who take no heed of moral exigencies…Who will stop rulers from favoring, from even imposing upon their peoples, if they were to consider it necessary, the method of contraception which they judge to be most efficacious?

[Forced sterilization, forced abortion, and coerced sterlization and contraception in exchange for food, housing, and/or medical benefits exists in many places on this earth, with the cooperation of organizations that say they are for women’s rights!]

So, if you think your life would be easier just to embrace contraception and abortion and to be pro-choice, think of how it changes the world for your descendents. Rebellion against Paul VI led directly to Girls Gone Wild videos, porno in the home even accessible to children, women being proud of indiscriminate fornicating behavior, and people not accepting marriage or children. A dating couple has relations and he gets MAD when she gets pregnant–hello, what do you think sex is for?! And forcefully drags her to the abortion clinic. The clinic people routinely overlook coercion and do not report rape or incest to the police when it is disclosed to them. Women are obviously being ground up into hamburger spiritually by this culture of death, and men too–although people want to think the guys are getting benefits from it. No, they are being hardened, and when they want to find a good woman to marry, they can’t find one. They can find a Girls Gone Wild girl, but not a woman worthy of being a wife and mother. Everyone pays the price.

 

[Newbie2]

You are badly mistaken. Science had indeed established that human life begins the instant a male sperm cell unites with a female oocyte…bingo, life begins. That’s universally held in the scientific community because it is established, proven science. This is also the estblished belief of the Catholic Church who teaches that all life is sacred from conception until natural death. Their isn’t any wiggle room.

You missed my point. Yes, new LIFE begins at conception, but the Scientific community doesn’t necessarily recognize that life as a HUMAN PERSON as the Catholic Church does. How they are able to separate human life from human personhood is baffling to me.
The pro-abortion lobby has successfully obfuscated rights of a child in the womb through political misdirection claims that a woman has the right to choose, the use of PC language like pro-choice and villanizing their opponents as right wing religious nuts. But this is changing. Many States are floating laws that woud give personhood to the baby in the womb. Georgia, Mississippi, Colorado are among about 15 States that I am aware of that are pursuing such a law. It’s just a matter of time…all the science is on the side of the pro-life movement.

I agree, but once again spritual matters, i.e. what a soul is and when a living being “gets” one is not within the realm of scientific study, rather theological study. There is no way to prove or disprove when the new life gets a “soul”, at least scientifically, that is my point.
God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[JimG]

“Person” and “soul” are not matters in which science is competent. Science has nothing to say about personhood or the soul.

What is clear however, from the facts of embryology, is that a new and distinct individual of the human species has its beginning at conception. A new and distinct individual of the human species is de facto, a human being.

The only debate is: at what age should human beings be protected from being arbitrarily killed? 1 week gestational age? One month? 3 months, 9 months, or 10 or 12 or 14 months–that is, post birth, as some have suggested. Anything other than protection from the beginning is purely arbitrary.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

“Person” and “soul” are not matters in which science is competent. Science has nothing to say about personhood or the soul.

What is clear however, from the facts of embryology, is that a new and distinct individual of the human species has its beginning at conception. A new and distinct individual of the human species is de facto, a human being.

The only debate is: at what age should human beings be protected from being arbitrarily killed? 1 week gestational age? One month? 3 months, 9 months, or 10 or 12 or 14 months–that is, post birth, as some have suggested. Anything other than protection from the beginning is purely arbitrary.

Of course this is the answer.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

I was pro-choice until I started praying the Rosary. I guess you can’t say “blessed is the fruit of thy womb” 53 times a day and not be changed by it.

I also learned as an adult that I was unplanned and unexpected (but welcomed)–I was also born less than ten years before Roe v Wade. I totally understand the survivor complex people have, who are conceived after Roe v Wade. One-third of their generation is missing.

One comedian, is it Bill Cosby?, jokes that his mother says, “I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!” Well, after Roe v Wade, that really isn’t funny any more. It’s like saying, “I should have aborted you!” – which some parents have told their child.

Let’s hear from the prophet Paul VI in Humanae Vitae:

1. Upright men can even better convince themselves of the solid grounds on which the teaching of the Church in this field is based, if they care to reflect upon the consequences of methods of artificial birth control. Let them consider, first of all, how wide and easy a road would thus be opened up towards conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality. Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men—especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point—have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law, so that they must not be offered some easy means of eluding its observance. It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anti-conceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion.
   
   Let it be considered also that a dangerous weapon would thus be placed in the hands of those public authorities who take no heed of moral exigencies…Who will stop rulers from favoring, from even imposing upon their peoples, if they were to consider it necessary, the method of contraception which they judge to be most efficacious?

[Forced sterilization, forced abortion, and coerced sterlization and contraception in exchange for food, housing, and/or medical benefits exists in many places on this earth, with the cooperation of organizations that say they are for women’s rights!]

So, if you think your life would be easier just to embrace contraception and abortion and to be pro-choice, think of how it changes the world for your descendents. Rebellion against Paul VI led directly to Girls Gone Wild videos, porno in the home even accessible to children, women being proud of indiscriminate fornicating behavior, and people not accepting marriage or children. A dating couple has relations and he gets MAD when she gets pregnant–hello, what do you think sex is for?! And forcefully drags her to the abortion clinic. The clinic people routinely overlook coercion and do not report rape or incest to the police when it is disclosed to them. Women are obviously being ground up into hamburger spiritually by this culture of death, and men too–although people want to think the guys are getting benefits from it. No, they are being hardened, and when they want to find a good woman to marry, they can’t find one. They can find a Girls Gone Wild girl, but not a woman worthy of being a wife and mother. Everyone pays the price.

Beautifully said.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[genevievelives]

No, gen, it’s the pro-choice side that has turned the word “choice” to equal abortion.

The “choice” to abort one’s own child is what the pro choice side clings to. Any attempt to regulate abortion is seen as “anti-choice” There are more choices available to the pregnant woman than just abortion. Pro-lifers would try to persuade her to choose to have her baby, no?

dictionary.reference.com/browse/pro+choice

A woman can choose to keep he child, a woman can choose to place her child up for adoption. Those would be morally correct actions

Choosing to abort is not a morally correct action. The embryo/ fetus/ pre-born human is a human being whose right to life must be protected.

"pro-
prefix
1 favoring; supporting

“choice: noun
an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities”

PRO-CHOICE: FAVORING AN ACT OF SELECTING OR MAKING A DECISION WHEN FACED WITH TWO OR MORE POSSIBILITIES.

gen

 

[century153]

:extrahappy:

You are badly mistaken. Science had indeed established that human life begins the instant a male sperm cell unites with a female oocyte…bingo, life begins. That’s universally held in the scientific community because it is established, proven science. This is also the estblished belief of the Catholic Church who teaches that all life is sacred from conception until natural death. Their isn’t any wiggle room.

The pro-abortion lobby has successfully obfuscated rights of a child in the womb through political misdirection claims that a woman has the right to choose, the use of PC language like pro-choice and villanizing their opponents as right wing religious nuts. But this is changing. Many States are floating laws that woud give personhood to the baby in the womb. Georgia, Mississippi, Colorado are among about 15 States that I am aware of that are pursuing such a law. It’s just a matter of time…all the science is on the side of the pro-life movement.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[century153]

I was pro-choice until I started praying the Rosary. I guess you can’t say “blessed is the fruit of thy womb” 53 times a day and not be changed by it.

I also learned as an adult that I was unplanned and unexpected (but welcomed)–I was also born less than ten years before Roe v Wade. I totally understand the survivor complex people have, who are conceived after Roe v Wade. One-third of their generation is missing.

One comedian, is it Bill Cosby?, jokes that his mother says, “I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!” Well, after Roe v Wade, that really isn’t funny any more. It’s like saying, “I should have aborted you!” – which some parents have told their child.

Let’s hear from the prophet Paul VI in Humanae Vitae:

1. Upright men can even better convince themselves of the solid grounds on which the teaching of the Church in this field is based, if they care to reflect upon the consequences of methods of artificial birth control. Let them consider, first of all, how wide and easy a road would thus be opened up towards conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality. Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men—especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point—have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law, so that they must not be offered some easy means of eluding its observance. It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anti-conceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion.
   
   Let it be considered also that a dangerous weapon would thus be placed in the hands of those public authorities who take no heed of moral exigencies…Who will stop rulers from favoring, from even imposing upon their peoples, if they were to consider it necessary, the method of contraception which they judge to be most efficacious?

[Forced sterilization, forced abortion, and coerced sterlization and contraception in exchange for food, housing, and/or medical benefits exists in many places on this earth, with the cooperation of organizations that say they are for women’s rights!]

So, if you think your life would be easier just to embrace contraception and abortion and to be pro-choice, think of how it changes the world for your descendents. Rebellion against Paul VI led directly to Girls Gone Wild videos, porno in the home even accessible to children, women being proud of indiscriminate fornicating behavior, and people not accepting marriage or children. A dating couple has relations and he gets MAD when she gets pregnant–hello, what do you think sex is for?! And forcefully drags her to the abortion clinic. The clinic people routinely overlook coercion and do not report rape or incest to the police when it is disclosed to them. Women are obviously being ground up into hamburger spiritually by this culture of death, and men too–although people want to think the guys are getting benefits from it. No, they are being hardened, and when they want to find a good woman to marry, they can’t find one. They can find a Girls Gone Wild girl, but not a woman worthy of being a wife and mother. Everyone pays the price.

kentuckyliz – thank you for that excellent post. I am in agreement with you and I am sorry to say haven’t read any of the pope’s (any of them) letters or encyclicals. I really must begin to pay more attention to what has been written and what the pope writes to his people. Thank you again for a most informative post.

And for all observers and posters – this is what I mean by a civil discussion of the subject with back up.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

"pro-
prefix
1 favoring; supporting

“choice: noun
an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities”

PRO-CHOICE: FAVORING AN ACT OF SELECTING OR MAKING A DECISION WHEN FACED WITH TWO OR MORE POSSIBILITIES.

gen

You are kidding, right? When it comes to abortion there are only two decisions - death or life…period. If the decision is life then there are a number of directions a woman can go; adoption; keep the baby etc. Certainly you can see this point.

Did you view the video?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[genevievelives]

You are badly mistaken. Science had indeed established that human life begins the instant a male sperm cell unites with a female oocyte…bingo, life begins. That’s universally held in the scientific community because it is established, proven science. This is also the estblished belief of the Catholic Church who teaches that all life is sacred from conception until natural death. Their isn’t any wiggle room.

The pro-abortion lobby has successfully obfuscated rights of a child in the womb through political misdirection claims that a woman has the right to choose, the use of PC language like pro-choice and villanizing their opponents as right wing religious nuts. But this is changing. Many States are floating laws that woud give personhood to the baby in the womb. Georgia, Mississippi, Colorado are among about 15 States that I am aware of that are pursuing such a law. It’s just a matter of time…all the science is on the side of the pro-life movement.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

Great. So make abortion illegal. I will buy as much stock as possible in the pharmaceutical companies that make birth control devices and medications. Then I can pull up a front-row seat and, while raking in the big bucks, count the number of men who back away from their women and wives because, “oh, no, they might get knocked up.”

1)This solves nothing, 2) Science is not on any side, 3) It will never happen in our lifetime.

gen

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

**Word Origin & History **
pro-choice

“favoring a right to abortion,” 1975, from pro- + choice. Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
Cite This Source

dictionary.reference.com/browse/pro+choice



Also:

If you are not acting the gadfly here, just what do you hope to gain or learn by dragging us all out of our burrows one more time? I’m game, but I do not have the freedom to express the 360 degrees of my view because the threat is always there that the very UNCatholicness of my position may warrant a banishment. Or is that what you want?

You haven’t been a CAF member long, do you assume non-Catholics are banished more frequently, or in an unfair manner?

Just curious.

 

[catharina]

"pro-
prefix
1 favoring; supporting

“choice: noun
an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities”

PRO-CHOICE: FAVORING AN ACT OF SELECTING OR MAKING A DECISION WHEN FACED WITH TWO OR MORE POSSIBILITIES.

gen

Denying the actual meaning of the terms used in this culture,
esp used in the discussion of pro-life and pro-abortion sentiments
seems to me to be a huge leap away from reality.

A so-called “pro-choice” reasoning allows for the possible choice of abortion.
A pro-life reasoning as within the Catholic Church will never allow for choosing abortion.

Catholics are not free to choose a pro-choice stance.
Many might say they do so, esp among politicians,
but to do that is to place oneself in opposition to Church Teachings.

The following is from the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

** CCC 2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society. **

 

[catharina]

Great. So make abortion illegal. I will buy as much stock as possible in the pharmaceutical companies that make birth control devices and medications. Then I can pull up a front-row seat and, while raking in the big bucks, count the number of men who back away from their women and wives because, “oh, no, they might get knocked up.”

1. This solves nothing,
   Once, it solved everything. Only forty yrs ago, abortion was illegal … thus, FEW abortions
2. Science is not on any side,
   Science concedes that human life begins at conception.
3. It will never happen in our lifetime.
   It was completely illegal in my lifetime - but never again?

gen

 

[Newbie2]

dictionary.reference.com/browse/pro+choice

TOUCHE’!

Yeah, I don’t get the "No, pro-choice doesn’t mean favoring abortion, it means favoring the choice" tripe.

One of the choices is abortion.

So if a woman wants to have an abortion, “pro-choicers” would support her choice…to have an abortion.

DUH.

It’s not any more complicated than that. Methinks those who hide behind the pro-choice badge instead of coming right out, when asked, and saying that they’re OK with abortions are intellectual cowards. Why not have the courage to say that when the woman chooses, you support her choice to abort i.e. in such cases are pro-abortion?

 

[catharina]

TOUCHE’!

Yeah, I don’t get the "No, pro-choice doesn’t mean favoring abortion, it means favoring the choice" tripe.

One of the choices is abortion.

So if a woman wants to have an abortion, “pro-choicers” would support her choice…to have an abortion.

DUH.

It’s not any more complicated than that. Methinks those who hide behind the pro-choice badge instead of coming right out, when asked, and saying that they’re OK with abortions are intellectual cowards. Why not have the courage to say that when the woman chooses, you support her choice to abort i.e. in such cases are pro-abortion?

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[genevievelives]

You are kidding, right? When it comes to abortion there are only two decisions - death or life…period. If the decision is life then there are a number of directions a woman can go; adoption; keep the baby etc. Certainly you can see this point.

Did you view the video?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

No kidding, and no need to see a video. I have one in my head.

gen

 

[genevievelives]

TOUCHE’!

Yeah, I don’t get the "No, pro-choice doesn’t mean favoring abortion, it means favoring the choice" tripe.

One of the choices is abortion.

So if a woman wants to have an abortion, “pro-choicers” would support her choice…to have an abortion.

DUH.

It’s not any more complicated than that. Methinks those who hide behind the pro-choice badge instead of coming right out, when asked, and saying that they’re OK with abortions are intellectual cowards. Why not have the courage to say that when the woman chooses, you support her choice to abort i.e. in such cases are pro-abortion?

I’m coming right out and saying that I am OK with abortions. I understand that the life of a fetus is ended in the process. I understand that the fetus then becomes hazardous waste. And the reason I’m OK with it is that it’s none of my business if a woman chooses to have one. I have absolutely no power over her, no influence to try to force her to change her mind, no individual sway on the US gov’t to change the law. If you want to try to force women to quit having sexual intercourse that might end up in conception, which is EVERY SINGLE TIME SEX OCCURS, and also force men to quit lusting after their women and wives as if that’s the only good thing on this planet and they just can’t keep their desires to themselves, good luck. Good luck, my friend.

gen

 

[genevievelives]

dictionary.reference.com/browse/pro+choice



Also:

You haven’t been a CAF member long, do you assume non-Catholics are banished more frequently, or in an unfair manner?

Just curious.

I have researched the archives and found some posters who flirted with free speech here were suspended or banned, apparently without explanation. One need not be a genius to understand the danger of civil discourse. It includes more than one side. Keep your eyes open and watch my status. You’ll come to understand what I mean by this.

gen

 

[catharina]

I’m coming right out and saying that I am OK with abortions. I understand that the life of a fetus is ended in the process. I understand that the fetus then becomes hazardous waste. And the reason I’m OK with it is that it’s none of my business if a woman chooses to have one. I have absolutely no power over her, no influence to try to force her to change her mind, no individual sway on the US gov’t to change the law. If you want to try to force women to quit having sexual intercourse that might end up in conception, which is EVERY SINGLE TIME SEX OCCURS, and also force men to quit lusting after their women and wives as if that’s the only good thing on this planet and they just can’t keep their desires to themselves, good luck. Good luck, my friend.

gen

So if the govt decided stealing is OK but only within reason,
and lying is fine in the courts if you’re sure you won’t get caught,
and rape and murder, also no biggies, if the victim deserved it …

Then you’re ok with it. The govt speaks for you …
and so what? Your hands are tied. Is that it?

 

[genevievelives]

catharina:
Illegal abortion solved your problem, your disgust and dismay at the thought of fetuses being snuffed out. But it did NOT solve everything. Unwanted children were still conceived, and sometimes were born into hateful “homes” where they never heard the end of their inconvenient presence. Illegal abortions were still performed, sloppily, recklessly, dangerously. And forty years ago Catholics were still trying to work the kinks out of NFP, just as they are today. It did not solve everything.

If science concedes that human life begins at conception, I hardly see how that is a point for anyone’s side. Science is impartial. If it states a fact, it is not a pro-life fact. It is just a fact.

I never said “never again” would abortion be illegal. Why do posters continue to put words into my posts, or even intent, that never existed? That’s manipulative and disdainful.

gen