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bapcathluth
Guest
Island Oak, are you saying you don’t agree with this sentiment?
kjvail:
Pro Choice: Crosswise with the church, one Catholic family votes with its feet
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Island_Oak
Guest
Before I answer…let me guess. You’re a professed pro-lifer who thinks every body is infused by God with an eternal soul at conception. But somehow once they’re born, if they turn away from the church in frustration, ignorance, disobedience, whatever, we can toss them away as “rubbish.” If it is intolerable to throw away a human being made in the image and likeness of God before birth, it is equally intolerable after birth. Not a single one of us knows the heart of another person or when or how a cold heart might turn back towards God–even up to the moment of death. As I learned the story, the feasting and celebrating for the prodigal son started after he returned repentant from his life of worldliness and sin, not when he left his father’s house.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Island Oak:
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
I probably shouldn’t speak for someone else,but,as a professed pro-lifer myself,who not only prays for the unborn but the conversion of the mother and the abortion mill workers,I do not think the poster wants this familt to be thrown away like garbage. There is indeed scandal given for one who claims to be a “good Catholic” and condones the murder of children. With high profile people it is made even worse, as a Roman Catholic,which I am proud to be,I am insulted when the directoress of an abortion mill,who is also a sanaria priestess takes joy in informing us time and time again that other catholics believe like her,and the pope will be dead soon,so we can come out of the dark ages.If you are Catholic be Catholic.God Bless
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bapcathluth
Guest
Would most of you agree that we should happily see them go to the devil? They are baby killers, right?We had some people from our parish leave for the same type reason. They are now going to a more secular Catholic Church in the area… my priest doesn’t hold back on his words, especially when it comes to prolife issues. Well, I feel the way as many have posted, goodbye… The devil would welcome them with open arms too.
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st_felicity
Guest
Island Oak:
Peace!
I empathize with some other’s frustrations, but Island Oak has got it right! It’s not an acceptance or even a tolerance of wrongdoing–it’s called HOPE!
Peace!
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st_felicity
Guest
“happily” ??? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! :nope: :nope: :nope: Are YOU recruiting for him???–with a statement like that promoting what amounts to hatred and is clearly a condemnation of another eternal soul,it sounds like YOU are asking rightly frustrated Catholic Christians to refuse to emulate Christ’s mercy. Last I looked, that’s at minimal leading others in scandal. I HOPE I’m misreading you.
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condan
Guest
Island Oak:
This is the classic strawman argument put forth by the pro-abortion movement. If you believe in capital punishment as a tool to safeguard society, you must therefore accept and condone abortion too as all souls are creations of God and are of the same worth. Simple critical thinking tells us that this is false simply because people of free will can and do seperate themselves, often for all time, from God. An unborn child simply has not had the opportunity to do so and is therefore perfect and pure and should not be deprived of the right to life.
Island Oak:
Further, it is important that people who do not agree with Catholic teaching find comfort and companionship elsewhere since their presence in a Catholic community is, for starters, hypocritical. It also gives a dangerous false impression to others and, more importantly, may lead others to grave sin.
Are you asserting that this applies to those people who have openly, persistently and unrepentently seperated themselves from God? Does this apply to such notorious human beings as Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Bill Baird and Bin Ladin? Because it would seem that, using your logic, ALL people, regardless of their actions are of the same value and that nothing that we can do will diminish our standing with God.
This is the classic strawman argument put forth by the pro-abortion movement. If you believe in capital punishment as a tool to safeguard society, you must therefore accept and condone abortion too as all souls are creations of God and are of the same worth. Simple critical thinking tells us that this is false simply because people of free will can and do seperate themselves, often for all time, from God. An unborn child simply has not had the opportunity to do so and is therefore perfect and pure and should not be deprived of the right to life.
Island Oak:
You are correct. However again, critical thinking and careful reading tells us that the prodigal son returned to the father, contrite and looking for love and protection. This family, conversely, has publicly rejected the Catholic faith and has established themselves elsewhere. Should they return to the church that The Father built on Peter (Matt. 16:19), then we will feast and celebrate. Until such time, while no one wants to see anyone burn, they have certainly put themselves in that position by their support of killing innocent unborn people before they have had a chance to draw breath. Most anyone would agree that that is rather ghastly and not worthy of forgiveness until the position is in line with God’s teaching.
Further, it is important that people who do not agree with Catholic teaching find comfort and companionship elsewhere since their presence in a Catholic community is, for starters, hypocritical. It also gives a dangerous false impression to others and, more importantly, may lead others to grave sin.
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st_felicity
Guest
Condon, please excuse me for butting in…
Does this apply to such notorious human beings as Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Bill Baird and Bin Ladin? Because it would seem that, using your logic, ALL people, regardless of their actions are of the same value and that nothing that we can do will diminish our standing with God.
Uhhh…Yeah…? CCC 1878: "All men are called to the same end: God himself…Love of neighbor is inseparable from love of God. "
Yes–God made *Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Bill Baird and Bin Ladin *for heaven and they too are of the same “value” as you or me.
As for Hell…what gets you there is persistance in sin. Anybody still living–NO MATTER THEIR PAST DEEDS–can receive God’s mercy if he or she turns away from sin and repents. So, yeah, unrepentant DEAD sinners are in Hell–We should pray for the unrepentant LIVING sinners in the HOPE they will return to Christ. (side note: the family in question are in extreme error and have turned away from the true Church, but they have not exactly rejected Christ–CCC 817-822–they are not in apostacy, they are in heresy and schism)
This is the classic strawman argument put forth by the pro-abortion movement. If you believe in capital punishment as a tool to safeguard society, you must therefore accept and condone abortion too as all souls are creations of God and are of the same worth.
And this is a “red herring”…actually, the “logic” doesn’t add up…
Simple critical thinking tells us that this is false simply because people of free will can and do seperate themselves, often for all time, from God. An unborn child simply has not had the opportunity to do so and is therefore perfect and pure and should not be deprived of the right to life.
1st sentence correct. 2nd–not exactly. The pre-born DO have the right to life, but they too are not “perfect”: Original Sin.
This family,…while no one wants to see anyone burn, they have certainly put themselves in that position by their support of killing innocent unborn people before they have had a chance to draw breath. Most anyone would agree that that is rather ghastly…
…so far, so good…
and not worthy of forgiveness until the position is in line with God’s teaching.
Uggh…CCC 2007: “With regard to God there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. (2008) …Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.” (Lest any man should boast.).
Peace!
Does this apply to such notorious human beings as Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Bill Baird and Bin Ladin? Because it would seem that, using your logic, ALL people, regardless of their actions are of the same value and that nothing that we can do will diminish our standing with God.
Uhhh…Yeah…? CCC 1878: "All men are called to the same end: God himself…Love of neighbor is inseparable from love of God. "
Yes–God made *Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Bill Baird and Bin Ladin *for heaven and they too are of the same “value” as you or me.
As for Hell…what gets you there is persistance in sin. Anybody still living–NO MATTER THEIR PAST DEEDS–can receive God’s mercy if he or she turns away from sin and repents. So, yeah, unrepentant DEAD sinners are in Hell–We should pray for the unrepentant LIVING sinners in the HOPE they will return to Christ. (side note: the family in question are in extreme error and have turned away from the true Church, but they have not exactly rejected Christ–CCC 817-822–they are not in apostacy, they are in heresy and schism)
This is the classic strawman argument put forth by the pro-abortion movement. If you believe in capital punishment as a tool to safeguard society, you must therefore accept and condone abortion too as all souls are creations of God and are of the same worth.
And this is a “red herring”…actually, the “logic” doesn’t add up…
Simple critical thinking tells us that this is false simply because people of free will can and do seperate themselves, often for all time, from God. An unborn child simply has not had the opportunity to do so and is therefore perfect and pure and should not be deprived of the right to life.
1st sentence correct. 2nd–not exactly. The pre-born DO have the right to life, but they too are not “perfect”: Original Sin.
This family,…while no one wants to see anyone burn, they have certainly put themselves in that position by their support of killing innocent unborn people before they have had a chance to draw breath. Most anyone would agree that that is rather ghastly…
…so far, so good…
and not worthy of forgiveness until the position is in line with God’s teaching.
Uggh…CCC 2007: “With regard to God there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. (2008) …Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.” (Lest any man should boast.).
Peace!
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condan
Guest
Would you state your point in your own words, particularly your reference to CCC 2007. This relates to people joining a congregation that is consistent with their beliefs how? Further, are you asserting that it is licit to kill the unborn because they have original sin on their souls? (My reference to “perfect” describes their inability to willfully and intentionally committ sin. Further, it is Catholic teaching that the unborn and newborns who die before baptism go directly to heaven and are automatically cleansed of original sin.)
I wouldn’t rush to judgement on God creating Hitler, OBL and Jeffrey Dahmer. Since none of us know for sure, it is safe to say that, at best, they had rejected God with all their might. One could also make a compelling argument that they had been successfully recruited for the opposing team. How does Satan and the concept of evil factor into your assertion that “Yes–God made *Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Bill Baird and Bin Ladin *for heaven and they too are of the same “value” as you or me.” Sorry, I don’t buy it. Not for one minute. Once you reject God, you are on the other side. They may be of the same value as Bl. Mother Teresa at birth but once they reject God, its a whole new game.
I think that I suggested that this family rejected only the Church that that Christ built on St. Peter and which is to last to eternity… However, God’s word keeps jumping out at me: “The only way to the Father is through the Son”. Since the Catholic church *is *the church that Jesus founded, aren’t Christians of other denominations (and especially those who, like this family, know Jesus’ true Church) seperated from Christ to some degree?
Lastly, if you are going to wish me peace, can you refrain from the “ugghs”. Thanks. If not, please don’t bother to wish me peace since it seems rather false, especially when followed by an exclamation point. Are you trying to force me to have peace or will I only have peace when I agree with you wholeheartedly? Will I ever have peace with my current convictions or is there some precept that you have laid out for me that I must follow?
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miguel
Guest
Certainly a person who does not repent will not receive mercy. Unrepentance is an act of the will that God respects. It’s our choice to reject God, and if that rejection persists until death, it leads to hell. Your quote of the CCC only applies to those who have repented. Strictly speaking, those who have repented should not consider themselves worthy by their own merit. They are worthy, but not by their own merit. God has given them the grace of repentance. And that’s why they did so.
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st_felicity
Guest
Would you state your point in your own words, particularly your reference to CCC 2007. This relates to people joining a congregation that is consistent with their beliefs how?
I was referring only to your statement implying one could be “worthy” of forgiveness. We are “worthy” of nothing. We cannot lose the right to be forgiven just as we cannot earn it–God’s mercy is the first grace.
I wouldn’t rush to judgement on God creating Hitler, OBL and Jeffrey Dahmer. Since none of us know for sure,
Huh??? God even created Satan. I don’t know what you are talking about…???
Further, it is Catholic teaching that the unborn and newborns who die before baptism go directly to heaven and are automatically cleansed of original sin.)
**
I don’t believe you are correct–I think the stance is we leave this issue to God’s mercy–Basically we don’t know, that’s where the idea of Limbo came about in years past.
it is safe to say that, at best, they had rejected God with all their might. One could also make a compelling argument that they had been successfully recruited for the opposing team.
I completely agree with that statement.
How does Satan and the concept of evil factor into your assertion that “Yes–God made Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Bill Baird and Bin Ladin for heaven and they too are of the same “value” as you or me.”
God is love. He loves the sinners as well as the saintly. God hates evil, but loves the sinner–innately, simply due to every human having been created in the image and likeness of God, is imbued with dignity–thus, to God, we are of equal “value”.
aren’t Christians of other denominations (and especially those who, like this family, know Jesus’ true Church) seperated from Christ to some degree?
Yes–but they are not COMPLETELY lost–that’s why we call the “separated brethren.”
Lastly, if you are going to wish me peace, can you refrain from the “ugghs”.
You are right. I apologize for the “uggh.” It was a flippant remark.
please don’t bother to wish me peace since it seems rather false, especially when followed by an exclamation point. Are you trying to force me to have peace or will I only have peace when I agree with you wholeheartedly? Will I ever have peace with my current convictions or is there some precept that you have laid out for me that I must follow?
C’mon Condan…I DO wish for you to have peace whether you find my comment relevant or not–whether you have peace now or are looking for it–I certainly wouldn’t (and couldn’t)* force* anyone to have peace. Would you prefer something like “have a nice day”? But that might come across as insisting too… At any rate, if you find it offensive, I will refrain.
I was referring only to your statement implying one could be “worthy” of forgiveness. We are “worthy” of nothing. We cannot lose the right to be forgiven just as we cannot earn it–God’s mercy is the first grace.
I wouldn’t rush to judgement on God creating Hitler, OBL and Jeffrey Dahmer. Since none of us know for sure,
Huh??? God even created Satan. I don’t know what you are talking about…???
Further, it is Catholic teaching that the unborn and newborns who die before baptism go directly to heaven and are automatically cleansed of original sin.)
**
I don’t believe you are correct–I think the stance is we leave this issue to God’s mercy–Basically we don’t know, that’s where the idea of Limbo came about in years past.
it is safe to say that, at best, they had rejected God with all their might. One could also make a compelling argument that they had been successfully recruited for the opposing team.
I completely agree with that statement.
How does Satan and the concept of evil factor into your assertion that “Yes–God made Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Bill Baird and Bin Ladin for heaven and they too are of the same “value” as you or me.”
God is love. He loves the sinners as well as the saintly. God hates evil, but loves the sinner–innately, simply due to every human having been created in the image and likeness of God, is imbued with dignity–thus, to God, we are of equal “value”.
aren’t Christians of other denominations (and especially those who, like this family, know Jesus’ true Church) seperated from Christ to some degree?
Yes–but they are not COMPLETELY lost–that’s why we call the “separated brethren.”
Lastly, if you are going to wish me peace, can you refrain from the “ugghs”.
You are right. I apologize for the “uggh.” It was a flippant remark.
please don’t bother to wish me peace since it seems rather false, especially when followed by an exclamation point. Are you trying to force me to have peace or will I only have peace when I agree with you wholeheartedly? Will I ever have peace with my current convictions or is there some precept that you have laid out for me that I must follow?
C’mon Condan…I DO wish for you to have peace whether you find my comment relevant or not–whether you have peace now or are looking for it–I certainly wouldn’t (and couldn’t)* force* anyone to have peace. Would you prefer something like “have a nice day”? But that might come across as insisting too… At any rate, if you find it offensive, I will refrain.
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st_felicity
Guest
Totally agreed. I was only referring to “worthy” in general–not in context.
…:tiphat: can I wish you peace?
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miguel
Guest
Thanks. I need it. RBAYB!:bounce:
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davy39
Guest
This whole story is nothing new. People switching churches until they find one that agrees with their opinions. This is how we ended with so many different churches. And if they can’t find one they agree with, they start one of their own. I say, good bye and don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Maybe someday they will get smart, and come back. Pray for them.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
I feel that some of the posters have been misrepresented.They are speaking out of frustration. If they are relieved that they have left the Church I understand completely.We are obliged to fervently pray for their conversion. However, lets say they had stayed, they publically condon abortion,therefore go against the Church and scripture, and on top of that, being in the state of mortal sin,take in our Lord in the Eucharist.St.Paul has strong warnings on that as well as the Magesterium.I do want them to be converted,but they left the Church way before they publically walked out the door.God Bless
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st_felicity
Guest
Lisa, I agree with everything you say concerning the Kings, and I too am frustrated as many of the other posters are. However, to allow that frustration to transform into (paraphrased): “Yippee!!! The baby killers are going to hell!” is completely inappropriate. This is a Catholic forum open to everyone–devout catholics, those fallen away, those questioning, inquiring, seeking truth, those looking for fodder to hate Catholics–I for one can’t let such a scandalous remark, or comments I know to be theologically erroneous go unchallenged; it’s unbecoming and un-Catholic. If anyone has been misrepresented here–they misrepresented themselves–but your forgiving and charitable heart is most admirable.
Peace! (but only if you want it–I’m gonna have to find some other salutation…:tsktsk: )
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
I certainly don’t agree with people saying they should burn in hell,the calling of names I think is just total frustration,and them saying baby killers is reactionary,because they are so tired of people acting like these precious human lives are blobs of tissue and mere “choices”. Whether that have aborted or not is irrelevant if you encourage others to do so, the blood of innocence is on their hands as well. But you are right that name calling will not bring them any closer to repentance or conversion.The Pope has finally told the Bishops that they have to instruct the laity properly and even mentioned public officials cannot sperate Faith and policy on issues that are paramount in their Faith.We need to pray for them for sure,but,I think it is time that Catholics know what being Catholic is.God Bless
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st_felicity
Guest
Oh.Oh.Oh. Lisa “God Bless” is a GREAT way to close your comments–can I steal that from you???
Peace! (oh–I mean) God Bless
Peace! (oh–I mean) God Bless
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Absolutely, you can steal it anytime
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