Pro Choice: Crosswise with the church, one Catholic family votes with its feet

[miguel]

st_felicity:

Lisa, I agree with everything you say concerning the Kings, and I too am frustrated as many of the other posters are. However, to allow that frustration to transform into (paraphrased): “Yippee!!! The baby killers are going to hell!” is completely inappropriate. This is a Catholic forum open to everyone–devout catholics, those fallen away, those questioning, inquiring, seeking truth, those looking for fodder to hate Catholics–I for one can’t let such a scandalous remark, or comments I know to be theologically erroneous go unchallenged; it’s unbecoming and un-Catholic. If anyone has been misrepresented here–they misrepresented themselves–but your forgiving and charitable heart is most admirable.

I use the term baby killer because it expresses the reality. They may not be directly involved in it. But voting for people whose intention is to keep the slaughter going, is aiding and abetting. If the shoe fits, wear it. Is it uncharitable? My hope is that it will shock people into really thinking about what they support. It’s time to quit beating around the bush. 40 million babies have been killed. Is this why so many brave Americans sacrificed and died in the cause of freedom? So that baby killing could be protected?

 

[Galieo]

Bob Baran:

I believe that the Catholic Church is going through a “housing cleaning” and we are going to end up with what we started off to be, “One , Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”!!

I pray you are right. The parable of the seeds and the sower is true in every generation–in this case, it would seem that the soil was not deep in this case.

Sometimes I become despondent about all the negativity, but then I think . . . how did the Apostles feel after Jesus was slain as they hid out so frightened in the upper room? The Holy Spirit will see us through this time of troubles as well.

 

[Ruthmary]

Condan,

“Further, it is Catholic teaching that the unborn and newborns who die before baptism go directly to heaven and are automatically cleansed of original sin.”

I believe that theologians are still actually out on the unbaptized. Jesus did say that we need to be born of water and the spirit. Of course, they won’t go to hell, but we don’t know for certain their end. Limbo is still a possibility. Many things are still a mystery.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

bapcathluth:

Would most of you agree that we should happily see them go to the devil? They are baby killers, right?

Nope, nope, nope. This shouldn’t be our attitude at all. Christ leaves the 99 in the fold and goes in search of the 1 that’s lost. I agree that they are culpable. I’m just sorry they’ve come to this place and hope the Good Shepherd brings them back. If I was happy in their reprobation, I hope someone would point out that I would, myself, be in danger of the very fire I wished on them.

 

[st_felicity]

miguel:

I use the term baby killer because it expresses the reality. They may not be directly involved in it. But voting for people whose intention is to keep the slaughter going, is aiding and abetting. If the shoe fits, wear it. Is it uncharitable? My hope is that it will shock people into really thinking about what they support. It’s time to quit beating around the bush. 40 million babies have been killed. Is this why so many brave Americans sacrificed and died in the cause of freedom? So that baby killing could be protected?

You know…I really don’t have much of a problem with “baby killers” although it’s not exactly the term I would use. Those in error need to be corrected in no-uncertain terms. Jesus rebuked Peter when he questioned Him about the passion saying “Get behind me, Satan!” Very similar in tone I think. I reaffirm , though, to rejoice at the possible damnation of others is just plain wrong. Another poster (JKirk…) had it right–if that was my sentiment, " I hope someone would point out that I would, myself, be in danger of the very fire I wished on them."

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

If you really believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist, this is a no-brainer. Why would someone leave the “True Presence” for another church?" A Protestant once remarked to a priest, " If I felt that Jesus was truely present in the Eucharist, I would not take it as lightly as some Catholics. I would constantly be there adoring him."I feel there is something else going on here. May God bless all those who are standing up for innocent life. I pray this couple will re-examine their priorities.

Deacon Tony

 

[HagiaSophia]

condan:

Further, it is Catholic teaching that the unborn and newborns who die before baptism go directly to heaven and are automatically cleansed of original sin.)

This is not correct - and there is currently new discussion about the subject.

"The Vatican’s International Theological Commission was last week determining that the question of Limbo - the supposed destination for the unbaptised - would be studied “in the light of God’s mercy”.

The Commission - which includes Redemptorist Fr Anthony Kelly of the Australian Catholic University’s Brisbane campus - said that the response to calls to resolve long-standing doubts about the status of limbo should not focus on limbo in isolation from its larger context.

Last week’s media revelation of the fact of improperly baptised Catholics in Brisbane brought the question of Limbo into fresh focus. Archbishop John Bathersby declared that children baptised at a South Brisbane church using non-traditional words would have to be re-baptised.

Commission Secretary Fr Luis Ladario told Zenit after a recent session that “to concentrate only on the question of limbo would be to lose the focus of the problem.”

He stressed that it would be studied “in the light of God’s mercy”.

He affirmed that “limbo is not the problem; in fact, it was a historical attempt to proffer a solution in the face of the death of a child who has not been baptised.”

“What is interesting is to study this topic in the light of God’s universal saving will, the unique mediation of Jesus Christ, and the Church’s sacramentalism,” he said.

In addition to limbo, the theologians of this commission, which forms part of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, are studying natural law – moral norms that correspond to man’s nature and that can be known by the use of reason – and the status of theology and its methods.

The commission comprises theologians of various schools and nations, distinguished for their knowledge and faithfulness to the Church’s magisterium. The members, whose number does not exceed 30, are appointed by the Pope for five years after being proposed by the prefect of the doctrinal congregation in consultation with the bishops’ conferences."

cathnews.com/news/411/163.php

 

[HagiaSophia]

Deacon Tony560:

If you really believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist, this is a no-brainer. Why would someone leave the “True Presence” for another church?" A Protestant once remarked to a priest, " If I felt that Jesus was truely present in the Eucharist, I would not take it as lightly as some Catholics. I would constantly be there adoring him."I feel there is something else going on here. May God bless all those who are standing up for innocent life. I pray this couple will re-examine their priorities.

Deacon Tony

If you read their statement carefully this was simply the nail upon which they hung their cap as they left; they admit that for some long time they had been in “estrangement” over other issues. They were on their way out theologically - apparently it was their activity level which kept them in the pew until now. It is as Bp Chaput so aptly put it, many sit in the pews and don’t realize they have ceased being Catholic.

 

[condan]

HagiaSophia:

This is not correct - and there is currently new discussion about the subject.

"The Vatican’s International Theological Commission was last week determining that the question of Limbo - the supposed destination for the unbaptised - would be studied “in the light of God’s mercy”.

The Commission - which includes Redemptorist Fr Anthony Kelly of the Australian Catholic University’s Brisbane campus - said that the response to calls to resolve long-standing doubts about the status of limbo should not focus on limbo in isolation from its larger context.

Last week’s media revelation of the fact of improperly baptised Catholics in Brisbane brought the question of Limbo into fresh focus. Archbishop John Bathersby declared that children baptised at a South Brisbane church using non-traditional words would have to be re-baptised.

Commission Secretary Fr Luis Ladario told Zenit after a recent session that “to concentrate only on the question of limbo would be to lose the focus of the problem.”

He stressed that it would be studied “in the light of God’s mercy”.

He affirmed that “limbo is not the problem; in fact, it was a historical attempt to proffer a solution in the face of the death of a child who has not been baptised.”

“What is interesting is to study this topic in the light of God’s universal saving will, the unique mediation of Jesus Christ, and the Church’s sacramentalism,” he said.

In addition to limbo, the theologians of this commission, which forms part of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, are studying natural law – moral norms that correspond to man’s nature and that can be known by the use of reason – and the status of theology and its methods.

The commission comprises theologians of various schools and nations, distinguished for their knowledge and faithfulness to the Church’s magisterium. The members, whose number does not exceed 30, are appointed by the Pope for five years after being proposed by the prefect of the doctrinal congregation in consultation with the bishops’ conferences."

cathnews.com/news/411/163.php

Thank you for the correction. I appreciate it.

 

[miguel]

st_felicity:

…I reaffirm, though, to rejoice at the possible damnation of others is just plain wrong.

I agree. It’s nothing to rejoice about. But I am gratified about one aspect of their decision. They quit pretending to be Catholic. At least that was honest.

 

[dirtydog]

Island Oak:

BTW–for those of you obviously unfamilar with Kansas City, Country Club is a well-known area/neighborhood within the city and many stores/businesses/schools and churches incorporate it into their names.

As someone who lived in K.C. for my entire life until last April, I can say that the Catholic churches in the affluent areas have quite a few troubles. MANY, MANY, MANY people are like this couple. I’m actually glad they had the honesty required to leave rather than hold on to some misguided belief that the magisterium could bend to their wills. Specifically, the church I attended for many years (in Johnson County), and that my parents still attend, is full of liturgical abuses and people who believe they can be Catholic but not hold to what the Church has always taught. I just pray that someday this couple will see the error in their ways and come home.

Interestingly, the most reverent services and faith filled communities that I experienced were in a poor area (Blessed Sacrament), and in Lawrence (St. Lawrence Catholic Campus Center).

 

[les]

quijote:

I too am conflicted about this story.

Part of me feels “good riddance”, but I also feel sorry for them.

How can a Eucharistic minister give up the Eucharist for a “feel good” church?

Cheers.

My “gut feeling” is that they didn’t believe in the real presence.

 

[quijote]

les:

My “gut feeling” is that they didn’t believe in the real presence.

You’re probably right.

One would think that in order to be an Eucharistic Minister a person should at least know what the Church teaches about the nature of the Eucharist.

One thing that bothers me is that this couple are probably considered “experts” in Catholicisim in their new church and everything they say about the Church is considered accurate by their new church (“well so and so used to be an Eucharistic MInister inthe Catholic Church and he says that the Church is…”).

cheers.

 

[cainem]

i cant understand catholics like the kings, we also have people like them in our parish crying out for strong leadership and a clear statement form the clergy and when they get it they dont like it and jump ship

 

[tgdanne]

condan:

Further, it is Catholic teaching that the unborn and newborns who die before baptism go directly to heaven and are automatically cleansed of original sin.

Not true. But here is a very interesting article (Do aborted babies go to heaven?) on that topic :

catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Homiletic/2000-07/graebe.html

 

[Gabriel7]

stumbler:

NB: Negotiators upset by non-negotiables

This Christmas, Steve and Shayla King won’t be worshipping at Visitation Catholic Church.

The Kings have been attending Mass at Visitation for 30 years. The couple were married in its sanctuary in 1969, and they officially joined the venerable Brookside parish in 1974. Their three kids went to grade school there before going on to Rockhurst. One of those kids married his wife at Visitation in January 1999. Shayla was a Eucharistic minister, serving communion to her fellow parishioners for 20 years. For the past decade, Steve sang in the choir.

The family always planned its holiday celebrations around midnight Mass, Steve King says. “We’d always open with 30 minutes of Christmas music before the service. Some of it was the choir only, and some of it was the whole congregation. Visitation would always hire strings and brass and timpani, and, at some point, if you didn’t have the goose bumps, you knew you were going to get them soon.”

This season, though, the Kings are new members of Country Club Congregational United Church of Christ, off Brookside Boulevard at 65th Street. The small white building with the Christmas-card steeple looks like something Norman Rockwell would have painted. The story of how the Kings ended up there, though, feels like a sad tale of how twisted things have become in the last year, culminating on November 2. . . .

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pitch.com/issues/2004-12-09/news/janovy.html

 

[Gabriel7]

This is very sad!I fail to understand how a person choosing to elimate their child through abortion is enlightening!

 

[Catholic_Heart]

Island Oak:

What a shocking, ugly thread this has become. I am disgusted by some of the posts here. I’m all for recognizing that the Catholic faith is a tough road to hoe, requires obedience of its membership and is not the path to God for everyone. But how sanctimonious have we become that we can confidently declare that we know who is “going to burn”?!?!?

There isn’t one of you out there that doesn’t struggle with some aspect of church teaching and FAIL to live up to the Church’s expectations. Given that, why/how can anyone take delight when another Catholic brother or sister falls away from the church??? You have allowed yourselves to give into the emotional sway of an article written by someone with an obvious agenda, and forgotten that at the heart of the story, 2 members of our family have gone missing. Even in the secular realm the healthy reaction in such situations would be to first send out a search party and then to mourn–not call the caterers and start the party.

**Thank you for your post. I feel the same way you do…I have become disgusted with the posts I have been reading on this thread. It seems to me that there are many here who are truly “holier than thou” in attitude, and who appear to take great pleasure in expresing the opinion that these people will burn in hell. **

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**I have been thinking of resigning from this forum, because of the hatefullness I have found here…The lack of charity, and the lack of compassion for others is truly un -Christlike. I am often appalled by the harsh language used here. **

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I hope that when the time comes, the Lord looks upon you people with more charity than you are willing to extend to others.

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[HagiaSophia]

**]
I have been thinking of resigning from this forum, because of the hatefullness I have found here…The lack of charity, and the lack of compassion for others is truly un -Christlike. I am often appalled by the harsh language used here. **

You appear to have several problems with the forum. You have posted at least two other times that I can recall that you were leaving in a huff over something or other. Suit yourself and quit giving notice - do as you will.

You seem to suffer from some terrible ambivalence about your vote and came in to lash out at everyone in one thread, you are now in two or three threads and you don’t like this, you don’t like that. and heavn only know you don’t approve of many of us. Frankly, who cares?

Feel free to post what you think, but quit beating up everyone you don’t approve of or agree with and threatening to leave the forum.

For heaven’s sake: why don’t you take a break, get a cup of tea and get some r & r. You sound like you need it - and Happy Holidays to you too.