Problem of Evil [3]: Testing and the Afterlife

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But a significanylt proportion of creatures are designed (and you can use a different word there as long as it doesn’t exclude the will of God) to kill. Claws to rip, teeth to tear etc.

I think in Genesis the implications of The Garden of Eden, before the first sin, was that all creatures were vegetarian or didn’t even need sustenance and lived in peace. With the first sin man/woman needed animal skins to cover their nakedness and to protect against the elements. Also creatures became carnivores.

So the answer to the problem of evil is: Read Genesis literally.

 

[nicholasG]

So the answer to the problem of evil is: Read Genesis literally.

No. I’m trying to explain the Teeth, Claws and Ripping. Which is not evil. This is also part of the natural world. We as humans do it all the time except we have others doing the clawing and ripping for us and we use our Teeth for the eating.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So the answer to the problem of evil is: Read Genesis literally.

No. I’m trying to explain the Teeth, Claws and Ripping. Which is not evil.

I agree they are not evil. But they are designed for a purpose. Purposely designed to kill. Are you saying that God didn’t want it to turn out as it did?

 

[nicholasG]

I agree they are not evil. But they are designed for a purpose. Purposely designed to kill. Are you saying that God didn’t want it to turn out as it did?

God designed them to be efficient for survival. You wouldn’t expect anything less from God. This is the natural world God created.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I agree they are not evil. But they are designed for a purpose. Purposely designed to kill. Are you saying that God didn’t want it to turn out as it did?

God designed them to be efficient for survival. You wouldn’t expect anything less from God. This is the natural world God created.

Exactly my point. Hence…the problem of evil. Or in this case - suffering.

 

[nicholasG]

yes, you can solve the problem by placing limits on one of the three attributes. In your case, you are resolving by saying God is not omnipotent.

Catholic apologists will not agree with you because this implies there is law above even God (natural law). This contradicts the Catholic definition of God.

As I said previously, I think a better approach is to say God is not omniscient. God does not know the future, and does not know enough of either the past or the current state to inerrantly predict it.

Not at all. I am not putting limitations on God. God will not do anything against his nature. Why would God create a square circle? Why would God create an unnatural world? These are against His nature, they make no sense. His nature is love and truth. A square circle is not a truth. An unnatural world is not a truth.

 

[Freddy]

NightOwl:

yes, you can solve the problem by placing limits on one of the three attributes. In your case, you are resolving by saying God is not omnipotent.

Catholic apologists will not agree with you because this implies there is law above even God (natural law). This contradicts the Catholic definition of God.

As I said previously, I think a better approach is to say God is not omniscient. God does not know the future, and does not know enough of either the past or the current state to inerrantly predict it.

Not at all. I am not putting limitations on God. God will not do anything against his nature. Why would God create a square circle? Why would God create an unnatural world? These are against His nature, they make no sense. His nature is love and truth. A square circle is not a truth. An unnatural world is not a truth.

In what sense are you using ‘unatural’ here?

 

[nicholasG]

Exactly my point. Hence…the problem of evil. Or in this case - suffering.

I don’t think it’s a problem. It’s only a problem if it can’t be explained. Evil or suffering is a natural extension of a natural world. In a natural world, all life effects other life, some suffer and some gain.

 

[nicholasG]

In what sense are you using ‘unatural’ here?

Unnatural: against the natural order of things. Would God create something against the natural order of things?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

In what sense are you using ‘unatural’ here?

Unnatural: against the natural order of things. Would God create something against the natural order of things?

Evolution can head in a lot of different directions depending on the environment. The fact that lions have claws that rip and teeth that tear and eat antelopes was not the only possible outcome. Are you saying that God could not have organised it, using natural processes, any other way?

 

[nicholasG]

Are you saying that God could not have organised it, using natural processes, any other way?

I’m saying if He could have, He would have. We are were we are because God did what his nature compelled Him to do. He could do it no other way because He does truth. As far as I can see, evolution is a success. We may have our own personal qualms about it but the the world is bigger than any one of us.

 

[goout]

goout:

And you also don’t understand what mystery means in Catholic theology

You are not allowed to willy-nilly redefine words to explain away the problems.

Exactly the point. If you want to understand mystery in a Catholic context, you can’t insist on your own definition and understanding.
This also applies to the other concepts. If you want to understand the Catholic point of view, then listening to what the Church articulates would be a good first step.

 

[Noose001]

1. God does not know; God is the knowledge. Being knowledgeable entails the process of acquiring knowledge which is only applicable to man and not God.
   I know the bible says ‘God knows’ the plans He has for… but that’s mainly poetic.
2. It is all about creation. As much as God created the heavens and earth in the beginning, God’s creation is on levels and is ongoing through men. It is a loop with the beginning and the end at the same point and eternity proceeding on a straight line from this point onward.

The loop represents the temporariness or evil or darkness but it is necessary so that eternity/good/light may be meaningful or may have preeminence and thus created.

Creation is about comparison by consciousness. In the beginning it was dark and the Lord said, let there be light and then He separated light from dark; without darkness, light may not find meaning. And even now, we traverse the loop so that those that emerge victorious may understand eternity and be created through whom the new heavens and earth will exist.

 

[o_mlly]

My personal view of God has nothing to do with this. […] My personal opinion, which solves MANY theological problems […] is that God is neither all-powerful nor all-knowing.

Perhaps, that describes the basic problem.

 

[goout]

Ok.
ten characters

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Are you saying that God could not have organised it, using natural processes, any other way?

I’m saying if He could have, He would have.

That’s a dangerous direction you are heading in. You’re saying that world had to be exactly as it is and that God had no choice in the matter.

Well, it’s another answer to the problem I guess.

 

[nicholasG]

That’s a dangerous direction you are heading in. You’re saying that world had to be exactly as it is and that God had no choice in the matter.

Yes in a sense. God cannot go against His nature otherwise He wouldn’t be God.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

That’s a dangerous direction you are heading in. You’re saying that world had to be exactly as it is and that God had no choice in the matter.

Yes in a sense. God cannot go against His nature otherwise He wouldn’t be God.

So it’s in his nature to create a system that involves suffering (we’re still talking animals here). His nature precludes Him from creating it any other way.

 

[nicholasG]

Don’t you see the problem with this approach?

No I don’t.
God’s nature is love and truth. How do I know? If it wasn’t He wouldn’t be God, The truth is that there is life, death, happiness, sorrow, evil, goodness, etc…That’s truth. It all works with nature. You and I may not alway like it but the world is bigger than any one persons ideals. Sometimes the truth is hard to accept. Everything works with everything else. The result - you and I are here.

Edit: I never talked about “eternal, unchanging and absolute “morality”

 

[nicholasG]

His nature precludes Him from creating it any other way.

Unless you have a better explanation.