Problem with the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion in cases of rape

[stpurl]

I’m a woman. Are you? I’ve given birth. Have you? I’ve had my own experiences with sexual abuse. Have you?

IOW, as the mother and grandmother I now am, I have lived through most of the whole ‘sexual revolution’. I’ve had the “MeToo’ and I’ve dealt with the injustices that are perpetrated upon women —and upon men too.

How about the young men who are ready and willing and able to be fathers—who would take over the care of the child after birth, offer the woman whatever she chooses —marriage, support, her freedom, whatever —who would foot the bill for the whole pregnancy and birth and afterward to ensure that the mother does not suffer for the 9 months she carries the child and for help thereafter—whose families would welcome the child—but hey, ‘It’s HER body’ and she decides that SHE wants to abort. The father has no rights here, you know. What about that in your ‘column of suffering’? Maybe you’ve never sat with your son while he grieves that the girl he was going to marry decided that ‘she wasn’t ready for commitment or children’ and decided to abort. And there was nothing he could do to stop her. Maybe you’ve never sat with your daughters and heard them say that well yeah they had thought they were ready for children but after their friends and their coworkers had shown them that children were horrible parasites, how the friends and their ‘friends’ had been forced into having children who turned out to be utter swine, how ‘science’ proved that what they had in their bodies now was ‘just a clump of tissue’ comparable to getting a tumor taken out, and how, ultimately, ‘it’s my body and I just don’t want to be pregnant now’ so sorry mom, you aren’t going to be a grandma again after all. . .

And you love your kids despite the evil action in this case they’ve done. . .and you love your kid whose child has been taken away in spite of them and you wish you could bear the pain for them. . .

But my voice isn’t what people want to hear in 2020. They want to hear the lying ‘comfort’ that “of COURSE your decision was wise and just. Pay no attention to people who say otherwise. It’s YOUR body. It’s all YOU.”

 

[Rau]

Some states have parental rights for the rapist

How bizarre. By all means, compel the rapist to contribute financially to support the child. But grant him a right, over any objection of the mother - that is bizarre and you’d have to wonder why the state made such a law.

 

[Lea101]

• that is bizarre and you’d have to wonder why the state made such a law.

My guess is that it could be the result of dumb people not drafting out laws properly (forgot to include a rape exception) and as a result rapists use that to their advantage.

We also have rapists who are husbands, I’m guessing some people believe he should still have a right or worse, authority.

 

[jeannetherese]

Are you arguing that it should be o.k. to kill people who you see as a source of mental pain and suffering?

 

[JoyfulTune]

I agree that husband should be given a right to disapprove wife’s abortion. Marriage itself is a loving relationship where people in it join themselves based on freewill and love.

If the couple are not husband and wife, but is a gentleman ask her to marry her but declined, then there is nothing he could do. Therefore, do not have sex before marriage.

However, if a man impregnate a woman by violent rape, and then he is willing to marry her, and then society emphatize his ‘gentlemanship’, it would be the most uncivilized way of creating a family and a society (Genesis 6:2-3, 2Samuel 13:1-32). There is no better way of wrecking the definition of marriage itself, by allowing violent men rape whichever women they want to marry and force them to carry the baby and even then force her to marry the rapist.

That is why my position is firm: the person who will defend the right of the children is first and foremost is the mother. No other system is better than this. No body care about the child than the mom. So she has to be given the authorithy to decide whether she is able to do the job, or not.

The rest of the world, they are basically on-lookers who either give help/ support, or just merely throwing unloving condemnations at both the mom & her child.

 

[JoyfulTune]

Abortion is always a purposeful murder of a human being.

And rape is a purposeful crime against woman & her family

 

[stpurl]

I think you both misunderstood and misinterpreted my post.

So you really have no problem with a woman deciding to kill her own children —because that is what her ‘not being up to having a child’ means?

 

[Raxus]

And rape is a purposeful crime against woman & her family

Murder is not a moral or legitimate response to rape. Killing a baby that is a product of rape only creates a legacy of death, ensuring that the rapist truly won.

 

[Raxus]

The rest of the world, they are basically on-lookers

By this logic, the only person that can stop a psychopath from killing another person with an axe is the person being attacked; nobodoy cares more about their body than the person being attacked. Everyone else are basically onlookers who have no right to interfere.

 

[Raxus]

just merely throwing unloving condemnations at both the mom & her child.

Citation needed.

 

[JoyfulTune]

So you really have no problem with a woman deciding to kill her own children —because that is what her ‘not being up to having a child’ means?

JoyfulTune:

just merely throwing unloving condemnations at both the mom & her child.

Citation needed.

I believe all mothers want to give good life to her children. No citation needed.

People who accuse mothers need to be controlled, to be taught a lesson, those people are the ones blinded by their own wisdom.

What these women actually need is support instead of condemnations. You do not need to control women because God has created them to be mothers. The fact that they feel not ready is a sign of how hard a task it is to be a mother.

Nobody else, no institutions, can do it better to raise a child than by his own mother. So, you just have to trust a woman’s judgement on that. If she has a husband, then IMO, his judgement also important. The rest of the world has no say on what a woman decide.

The fact that this thread is about rape, and there are people think it should be made compulsory for a rape victim to give birth the rapist child, makes me cringe at how it is obvious that gender slavery is really okay for some people. This is because of misinterpretation of what moral theology is.

Our God is The God who is JUST. He is no god of morality. The bible never once mentioned the word “god of morality”. OTOH, Justice is one of God’s Name! And with that, all injustice should be considered immoral. Not the other way round.

 

[stpurl]

So a just God, the one who actually created the child that is in the mother’s womb, just as He created the mother, would allow a mother to condemn her child to death? I don’t think so.

What of the right to life of a child?

As a mother myself I am appalled at the idea that you advocate, purely on the grounds of some type of twisted feminine ‘gender right’ for the killing of a child.

 

[Raxus]

I believe all mothers want to give good life to her children . No citation needed.

First, that’d demonstrably not true. Some mothers abuse or even kill their children (in the womb and out). Second, that’s not what I asked for a citation on.

People who accuse mothers need to be controlled, to be taught a lesson, those people are the ones blinded by their own wisdom.

Controlled? Taught a lesson? By whom, and how? And what exactly are they accusing mothers of? Going to need proof on all of this, please.

What these women actually need is support instead of condemnations.

Of course. That’s what crisis pregnancy centers and churches and family and federal help is for, and all of those are present. So, that problem is solved.

You do not need to control women because God has created them to be mothers.

We’re speaking of saving babies in the womb from being killed, not controlling women.

The fact that they feel not ready is a sign of how hard a task it is to be a mother.

This is what assistance and / or adoption is for.

Nobody else, no institutions, can do it better to raise a child than by his own mother. So, you just have to trust a woman’s judgement on that.

Choosing to kill a baby is never a sign of good judgement, sorry. We save lives, we don’t let others end them, no matter the reason.

If she has a husband, then IMO, his judgement also important. The rest of the world has no say on what a woman decide.

The rest of the world will always have a say in the defense of babies with no voices of their own. Period.

The fact that this thread is about rape , and there are people think it should be made compulsory for a rape victim to give birth the rapist child, makes me cringe at how it is obvious that gender slavery is really okay for some people. This is because of misinterpretation of what moral theology is.

Your own twisted view on the matter is not the truth. The baby created from rape is a victim themselves, and killing that victim only further harms the mother as well. The baby could be adopted out and raised into a force for good, as has happened many times. The baby deserves the fundamental right that all human beings have, no matter how they were created . “Gender slavery” is a non-issue in the U.S., and also not a consideration when we’re talking about saving a baby’s life. And you clearly have no room to talk about moral theology if you think it’s ok for a baby in the womb to die, and horribly at that.

He is no god of morality.

Aaaaaaand here is where I stop taking your argument seriously. What cereal box did you learn this from?

 

[jeannetherese]

The fact that this thread is about rape , and there are people think it should be made compulsory for a rape victim to give birth the rapist child,

The child has and identity apart from both mother and the rapist father.
The child has a right to life.
The mother is not obligated to raise the child.

 

[JoyfulTune]

So a just God, the one who actually created the child that is in the mother’s womb, just as He created the mother, would allow a mother to condemn her child to death? I don’t think so.

God offer a hope for both parents and future world through that child.

It is not compulsory for the woman to receive that offer. Not by law.

She have a duty to respond Jesus who died on the cross for her, so then she need to carry her cross too. But this is by grace, not by law.

What of the right to life of a child?

The child is an heir of the parents. In this case, the father sin against God and the mother. But God offers mercy to both parents and the world through that child.

It is church job to teach this to every victim of rape, one woman at a time. It is up to her whether she choose to believe it.

As a mother myself I am appalled at the idea that you advocate, purely on the grounds of some type of twisted feminine ‘gender right’ for the killing of a child.

I am sure you are also appalled at how women is treated by this generation. I understand your zeal to save children. But in places where women’s right is trampled, their children’s children rights is trampled as well.

We cannot save the children by treating women unjustly.

 

[Anesti33]

Oh I see how it works. God rains down JUSTICE from Heaven and the flaming, white-hot brimstone deprives a mother of motherhood, a father of fatherhood, and a child of her right to life (which necessarily includes the right to be a mother and to be supported.) OK. Cool beans.

 

[stpurl]

So let me get this clear. You are claiming that abortion —which has only been a legal ‘right’ in many places for a period of fewer than 50 years—is wrong in that innocent children are killed—but that allowing a woman to exercise that ‘right’ is somehow ‘righting a wrong’ to all women everywhere?

You truly believe that because, in your opinion, ‘women’ have been unjustly oppressed collectively through history and to this day, that allowing women to unjustly oppress their children by allowing them to be murdered in the womb is somehow justice itself?

That is remarkably twisted thinking.

No person has a RIGHT to choose evil. Abortion is evil. It is murder. You yourself recognize that. Yet you wish women, who are themselves victims of those who have chosen to do evil (sexism, racism, etc.) to ‘do unto the innocent’ the same kind of evil that was done to them? Two wrongs make a right? Exterminating female children in the womb somehow empowers those children? Exterminating male children in the womb somehow helps those children ‘learn goodness”???

 

[JoyfulTune]

Of course. That’s what crisis pregnancy centers and churches and family and federal help is for, and all of those are present. So, that problem is solved.

Exactly. So what else now? Evagelization of God’s mercy. Not by force. Not by law.

We’re speaking of saving babies in the womb from being killed, not controlling women.

The womb belongs to her.

This is what assistance and / or adoption is for.

You cannot force a woman to give their child to adoption as well.

 

[JoyfulTune]

To all, here is my further explanation:

It is biblical teaching (the Law of Moses) to say that by law, a child is the bloodline of the father.

The rapist do not deserve a child. The mother does not have responsibility to give her body in order to give the rapist a child.

Therefore, the child should be the child of grace: the mom need to make that choice by her freewill.

By grace we have been saved, apart from the law. (Galatians 3)

When a woman victim make a choice to keep the child, that child belong to her and God, no longer to the father bloodline as in the case if only the woman victim being forced to carry it by law.

If you force by law a rape victim to carry the child of a rapist, you reduce moral theology to be come "ends justify the means" morality.

 

[stpurl]

For somebody baptized Catholic you certainly seem not to understand Catholic teaching.

Cherry picking scripture passages and claiming that they support your man (or woman) made interpretations while ignoring the teachings of the Church—and in fact, ignoring a heck of a lot of non-Catholic Christians who most certainly do not go around making the claims you do—is not the way to honor our Lord.

You talk a lot about ‘law’. You seem to ignore the “Thou Shalt Not Kill’ part of Scripture though.

And if “the child belong (sic) to her and God, no longer to the father (sic)bloodline”, it surely seems strange that God, who created that child, would be willing to allow the child’s mother to take the life that HE made.

Look, for a man to rape a woman is a horrible thing. A vicious crime. Nobody denies it.

For a woman to face becoming pregnant from rape is hurtful for her. No question. Nobody denies it. She was forced into this. It is not her ‘choice’. Nobody denies it. A terrible wrong was done to her and also to the innocent child. . .by the rapist.

BUT your ‘solution’ does not help the woman get over the trauma. Your solution is to make the victims suffer even more: The child suffers a death penalty, and the woman is not only the victim of a rape, she becomes complicit in the murder of her own child. You are not taking aware the first trauma (rape); you are adding to it AND giving her a second trauma as well.