Proclaiming the bride and not the bridegroom

[Dancelittleewok]

Please tell me why you love the Lord Jesus Christ!

Tell me why you hate the Church

 

[2nd_Adam]

Tell me why you hate the Church

You guys are worrying me with a lack of response for your love and affection of the bridegroom.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

You guys are worrying me with a lack of response for your love and affection of the bridegroom.

Really?

Post 7:

The Catholic Church IS the body of Christ on earth. It is though the Church, founded by Jesus himself, that Christ’s mission of bringing salvation to all is continued. By proclaimng the bride, we proclaim the bridegroom.

It is through the sacraments that His grace is dispensed, through spreading the Gospel message that the Word is evangelized, and through works of service that we care for the least of our brothers. That is what Christ taught and that is what the Church does.

It is how we become sanctified and we may hope for eternal life in heaven.

Post 16:

It is a naïve assessment as is the title of the thread, which will likely lead to a naïve, false an incorrect conclusion.

The amount of time a person spends on the subject does not always proportionally reflect his belief system. I can see this approach similar to some Protestants’ contention that ‘since Catholics’ prayer is more about Mary than Jesus therefore Mary is more important than Jesus’.

The substance of the discussion depends on what the topic is. If it is about the church then we talk about it and similarly, if it is about Jesus. I don’t see any correlation that this should mean a person is proclaiming more about the Church and less about Jesus. It just does not apply.

By the way, how does one proclaim Jesus? What are the visible signs of Jesus on earth? What did he leave behind so that people can see and know by looking at them they would see and know Jesus too? How can we see and know Jesus if we do not see and know what symbolizes, depicts and the things he left behind?

You are mistaken if you think that by talking about his Church we are not proclaiming Jesus.

Post 28 from Guan:

I will agree that all those in the Church need to have Christ brought to them, and this is what happens in daily Mass.

But your characterization of “this…and not that” is what is erroneous. Jesus is not separated from his One Body, the church.

Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

The Church is the fullness of Him who fills all in All because He is the Head, and He is not separated from His One Body.

Post 30:

Jesus is our salvation. Had he not come to redeem us we would not be saved. I’d say that what you say is true, but it doesn’t stop there. You forget that the sacred scriptures are part of the Church, a tool created for the purpose of saving us… But it can not stop there because it is only a part of the deposit of faith. Sacred Tradition is that part of the deposit of faith that gave us the scriptures in the beginning… This is true for even the Jews. We also need to understand what they mean and therefore the Majesterium, the leading body of Christ placed here to guide ut through understanding our faith in a correct sense, was also handed down to us. The bible is very important. But it is not the end in of itself. Some Protestants have bibles in place of sacramentals. It gets to a point where it looks like they actually worship the bible. There are even songs made about the bible - some that sound idolatress even though not meant to be. I have a very strong devotion to scripture, having read it in much depth throughout my life. It was sacred scripture that saved me from the trap of solo scriptura.

You’ve had many responses but not liked the answers. The short answer is that Catholics don’t seek to cut the Body from the Head or vice versa as Guan said. A body without a head cannot do anything and a head without a body cannot do anything.

Can you not love both? Is it a “true test of faith” to cut God from His Church?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Really?

You’ve had many responses but not liked the answers. The short answer is that Catholics don’t seek to cut the Body from the Head or vice versa as Guan said. A body without a head cannot do anything and a head without a body cannot do anything.

Can you not love both? Is it a “true test of faith” to cut God from His Church?

I hope other Catholics siblings post about their love for the bridegroom.

 

[Shannon9791]

You heard him, Catholics, tell him about Jesus (not excluding the Church)

Christ has died
Christ is risen
Christ will come again.

What else do you need? I find Adam’s thread quite comical now because it seems to be like Guan said. He’ll start a thread and get railed by Catholics, not answer any questions they ask, then start a new thread. Maybe he’ll answer some of our questions on this thread.

 

[Shannon9791]

Your second premise. You could phrase the title: Proclaiming the Scriptures and not Christ.
God bless

He can’t do this, b/c we all have statements that he’s made that would show he is one of those people. He said in the “Sufficiency of Christ” thread that he believes in the “Sufficiency of Christ and the Sufficiency of Scripture” and refused to explain himself regarding that statement.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
You heard him, Catholics, tell him about Jesus (not excluding the Church)

Christ has died
Christ is risen
Christ will come again.

What else do you need? I find Adam’s thread quite comical now because it seems to be like Guan said. He’ll start a thread and get railed by Catholics, not answer any questions they ask, then start a new thread. Maybe he’ll answer some of our questions on this thread.

I think you missed the centrality of Christianity; and the love and glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ with your post. That is why this thread is so important!

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. - Apostolic teaching

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I think you missed the centrality of Christianity; and the love of God in the face of Jesus Christ with your post.

Christ has died, Christ is risen, and Christ will come again isn’t the centrality of Christianity? Adam, it is loving to cut the Head from the Body? Is it loving to presume to know your Catholics relationship with Jesus?

 

[Shannon9791]

I think you missed the centrality of Christianity; and the love and glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ with your post. That is why this thread is so important!

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. - Apostolic teaching

If Christ’s dying, rising and return isn’t the central point of Christianity, what is? And if you don’t mind, it has to come directly from the Bible.

 

[guanophore]

Many times in these threads (and I am speaking generally of the Non-Catholic forum) I am reminded of how people would ask questions of Christ not in sincerity but in order to trap Him.

I always pray to be able to discern those who are genuine and sincere in their questions, and those whose intent it to trap and ensnare…

In 2nd’s defense, I have been on a lot of threads with him, and have never questioned or brought up to him his attitude toward Christ. I have never had any concerns about his perception of Christ, nor thought that he needed Christ “preached” to him. I have always focused on his misperceptions and calumny against the Catholic Church in particular. Come to think of it, I can’t recall anyone on CAF ever responding to him as if he has a need to have Christ “preached” to him. He seems very solid and committed in his faith toward God. He has been given a lot of misinformation about Catholics, though.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Christ has died, Christ is risen, and Christ will come again isn’t the centrality of Christianity? Adam, it is loving to cut the Head from the Body? Is it loving to presume to know your Catholics relationship with Jesus?

Okay, what is missing your post about the centrality of Christianity? I think a Mormon can post the exact same thing that you did.

 

[2nd_Adam]

If Christ’s dying, rising and return isn’t the central point of Christianity, what is? And if you don’t mind, it has to come directly from the Bible.

Okay, what is missing your post about the centrality of Christianity? I think a Mormon can post the exact same thing that you did.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Okay, what is missing your post about the centrality of Christianity? I think a Mormon can post the exact same thing that you did.

No, I asked you what was missing, not the other way around. Answer my other questions as well.

 

[Shannon9791]

Okay, what is missing your post about the centrality of Christianity? I think a Mormon can post the exact same thing that you did.

My answer is going to be the same as Ewok’s. We asked you to tell us the answer b/c apparently you have some inside track that we don’t. The only request that I made is that your answer be 100% Biblical.

 

[guanophore]

I still think 2nd has a noble reason for proclaiming this to all Christians, Catholic and Protestant alike.

We are too mindly focused and place to much emphasis on the visible earthly things. If we just lead people to Jesus Christ as revealed in the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit will become their counselor and guide them into all truth!

Unfortunatly, this is not entirely true. If it were, there would not be such fracturing and separation in the visible Church today.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This promise was given to the Apostolic Church, and does not apply to those who have departed from it. Nor does it apply to those who, through their rebellion, are now separated from that Apostolic Church.

You can say that while you proclaim the church you’re proclaiming part of Christ because He is the head of the church. (not to mention Protestant and Catholics see this in two different ways, visible and invisible).

No, Cr8ton. The notion of the visible and invisible Church is Catholic.

Sometimes you seem to have no idea where some of the ideas you espouse originated.

No matter how you want to justify it. YES they both play a role in Christianity and should not be totally omitted but our divisions as believers are keeping us focused on the lesser things instead of Christ Himself.

You know, this is a good point. 2nd would not consider proclaiming the Bridegroom without, or apart from the Scriptures either. I think he would not want to separate them.

  I understand that this is a Catholic Answers site intended for supporting the Church and its  reasons for doing the way it does things.. but I still believe Jesus Christ should be proclaimed along with the church and not just assume everyone already knows the church leads to Jesus.

I will always make this assumption with 2nd, I can assure you.

You can't assume that because you proclaim the branches, that the root in which the branches are nourished is receiving its full recognition and glory.

Clearly!

 

[guanophore]

You lost me with your posting. Are you saying that Christians cannot understand Scripture on their own? Do you read the Bible on your own?

2nd, you are being deliberately obtuse. Have you considered taking some time off the threads? You started this new one, and have carried your avoidance behavior right in here!

Answer the question, how do the scriptures you posted show that Catholics proclain the bride, AND NOT the bridegroom?

 

[Cr8ton]

This promise was given to the Apostolic Church, and does not apply to those who have departed from it. Nor does it apply to those who, through their rebellion, are now separated from that Apostolic Church.

I disagree, but I have a feeling you already knew that.

Anyone who has the Holy Spirit living in them is a child of God and is lead into truth if they seek it from Him and not men.

No, Cr8ton. The notion of the visible and invisible Church is Catholic.

Sometimes you seem to have no idea where some of the ideas you espouse originated.

I think you misunderstood what I said, I agree that notion is Catholic…but don’t you agree the protestant view doesnt hold to that notion?? That’s why I was trying to say Catholics look more to the church referring to physical as protestants see it as spiritual.

You know, this is a good point. 2nd would not consider proclaiming the Bridegroom without, or apart from the Scriptures either. I think he would not want to separate them.

Without Jesus there would be no church, give Glory to the One whom Glory is due.

I will always make this assumption with 2nd, I can assure you.

There could be more people than just Adam reading your posts.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here is a very basic question for the Christian, regardless of being Catholic or Protestant.

Why do you love the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[guanophore]

I can receive teaching of the Catholic Church which is found in Sacred Scripture. I cannot receive teaching of the Catholic Church which cannot be found in Sacred Scripture.

You did not answer the question, 2nd. You are asking why Catholics preach the Bride "and not " the Bridegroom. I asked you if you had considered that we do this with you because you already have acceped the bridegroom, but it is the Bride with which you seem to have a problem.

The reason you get so much on the Catholic Church is that you are having trouble receiving it. Your receptor seems to be damaged.

Please clarify your thoughts because I’m lost in what you are trying to share. I’m just pointing to Jesus Christ for our sufficient source to both Catholics and Protestants alike. As a Protestant, I know we can sometimes make the Bible an idol. It’s the same with Catholics in the same way that they can make the Catholic Church an idol too. The Bible and the Catholic Church are only as good if it points us to Jesus Christ, because our sufficiency in this life and the next is in Christ and not the Catholic Church nor the Bible.

The only thing that is problematic in your formulation is the “and not”. If Jesus did not want us to have the Scriptures and the Church, He would not have left them for us, in this life.

I find it difficult to believe that you would separate the Scriptures from your proclamation of Christ.

Would you preach Christ “and not” involve the Scriptures?

 

[Shannon9791]

Here is a very basic question for the Christian, regardless of being Catholic or Protestant.

Why do you love the Lord Jesus Christ?

Answer mine and ewok’s question first, please.