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ConstantineTG
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It still seems to me that judgment has already been made without even knowledge on what is being suggested to be done. I don’t know why we should force people into Latin and the EF when there is no call for it and there is a legitimate option for a vernacular Mass.
As far as to what “inculturation” entails, there is nothing beyond a retranslation of Liturgy that I can see. Perhaps we are reading too much into the words. Again, context of words from a Filipino is different than if it came from an American or another English-speaker. Until we see any concrete proposals that prove otherwise, there is really nothing of big concern here. Of course this being the Traditional Forum, everyone tends to frown at anyone who would even suggest at not using Latin at Mass, much less using the Extraordinary Form. But lets not forget that the OF and the vernacular are legitimate choices and there is nothing wrong with it. There is just so much cultural implications for forcing Latin that has been discussed in part in this thread. The Mass is not being changed.
As far as to what “inculturation” entails, there is nothing beyond a retranslation of Liturgy that I can see. Perhaps we are reading too much into the words. Again, context of words from a Filipino is different than if it came from an American or another English-speaker. Until we see any concrete proposals that prove otherwise, there is really nothing of big concern here. Of course this being the Traditional Forum, everyone tends to frown at anyone who would even suggest at not using Latin at Mass, much less using the Extraordinary Form. But lets not forget that the OF and the vernacular are legitimate choices and there is nothing wrong with it. There is just so much cultural implications for forcing Latin that has been discussed in part in this thread. The Mass is not being changed.
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ProVobis
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And you’ve just presented a good case of keeping everything in a universal language so we could be on the same wavelength. Thank you.
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ProVobis
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Well, he’s had about 50 years’ worth of them.
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Ockham
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:clapping:
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Ockham
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“What is the Pope up to? In the words of Monsignor Guido Marini, “I think what the Holy Father is trying to do is to wisely bring together traditional things with the new, in order to carry out, in letter and spirit, what Vatican II intended, and to do it in such a way that papal liturgies can be exemplary in all aspects. Whoever takes part in, or watches, a papal liturgy should be able to say, “This is the way it should be done. Even in my diocese, in my parish!””
Archbishop Jesus Dosado of Ozamis
ucanews.com/2010/09/23/the-liturgical-renewal-i-would-like-to-see/
(emphasis mine)
Archbishop Jesus Dosado of Ozamis
ucanews.com/2010/09/23/the-liturgical-renewal-i-would-like-to-see/
(emphasis mine)
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benedictgal
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AC is a horse of a different color, so to speak. It really is not, as I see it, germaine to the subject at hand. Thus, it really does not make your point, with all due respect.From the same article by the Archbishop of Ozamis:
In his letter to the bishops of July 2007, he expressed the hope that the two forms of the one Roman liturgy might cross-fertilize each other, the old Missal being enriched by the use of the many beautiful collects and prefaces of Paul VI’s reformed Missal, and the celebration of the Novus Ordo recovering by example some of the “sacrality” that characterized the older form.
It is just like Anglicanorum Coetibus, the Apostolic Constitution providing for personal ordinariates for Anglicans entering into full communion with the Catholic Church, about which the Pope talked to the Bishops of England and Wales in their ad limina visit.
“It helps us to set our sights on the ultimate goal of all ecumenical activity: the restoration of full ecclesial communion in the context of which the mutual exchange of gifts from our respective spiritual patrimonies serves as an enrichment to us all,” Anglicanorum Coetibus reads.
Despite Summorum Pontificum, Pope Benedict himself has only celebrated the ordinary form of the Mass in public, “facing the people” in the manner of the Novus Ordo, using modern languages, all as stipulated in the Liturgical Books of the different countries where he celebrated.
The context indicates that the use of vernacular was not on the mind of the Archbishop of Ozamis when he described the excesses of the “so-called liturgists.”
End of debate.
Blessings
Now, the Holy Father has celebrated Mass Ad Orientem whenever he celebrates the Holy Sacrifice at the Sistene Chapel. Furthermore, the layout of St. Peter’s is automatically facing liturgical East.
What I believe your post does not point out is the fact that the Holy Father also uses significant chunks of Latin. We only have to look at the examples from the just-completed Papal state visit to the UK to see that he used Latin for all of the Masses he celebrated. He also uses Latin during the World Day liturgies as well.
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ConstantineTG
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No because then no one would understand it. Mind you that 60% of the Philippines is below the poverty line. And by this it means they live on less than US$2 per day. Most kids who live below the poverty line do not go to school because they go make a living by either begging for money on the street, or scavenging through the numerous dumpsites or garbage of the metropolis looking for things they can sell as scrap to get money for food. The luckier ones would be selling flowers, newspapers or cigarettes on the steets. A lot would resort to petty crimes just to live.
Hey, how about Missals in Filipino? Literacy rate in the Philippines is 92%, far below than the 99% literacy rate you see in most of the Western World. Also as pointed out earlier, Latin being an uncommon language would be seen as elitist by the poor people. English already is seen in itself as somewhat elitist, moreso a language that no one is familiar with.
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ConstantineTG
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How about following the example of the Holy Father that he celebrates the Mass in the OF, not the EF. I wonder why that is never brought up?
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Ockham
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How about an OF done just the way a papal Mass is or at least as the rubics describe? Huh? How about that? NO one is suggesting the Philippines or any other country go exclusively EF. Please debate the topic as stated and not some distracting tangent.
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ProVobis
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Then how did the Latin Mass survive since the 3rd century, where you had many more illiterates along the way, and in most of that time Latin was not the local vernacular?
In fact in all that time it was been widely accepted that the Latin Mass help spread Catholicism in the West.
I’ll definitely agree with you there. But Latin, even in the OF, should be non-political and neutral. If it’s considered elitist, then perhaps some education is in order. As well as exposure, exposure, and exposure. Reinforcing the all-vernacular can’t help those who wish to expand their horizons a bit.
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ConstantineTG
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Sure, I’m not going to contest that. But how do you explain to the common folk that they will not be hearing the Mass in a language they can understand anymore.Then how did the Latin Mass survive since the 3rd century, where you had many more illiterates along the way, and in most of that time Latin was not the local vernacular?
In fact in all that time it was been widely accepted that the Latin Mass help spread Catholicism in the West.
Yes, it should be. English is also seen as something of an advantage in our nation that we know how to speak English and thus an advantage in world commerce. But that still doesn’t prevent that fact that its a language of foreign origin. We easily dropped Spanish for the same reason because life in a Spanish Colony was elitism at its worst compounded by racism, where the only way to break the social barrier of belonging to a lower class was to be rich.
Also, appreciate that the country is 80% Catholic today, was 90% as recent as about 25 years ago. Anti-Catholicism is fierce in the country. If you think JWs and Mormons are fierce here, we have all those plus local copycats such as the Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) who’s entire doctrine revolves around proving that the Catholic Church is wrong. The Pastoral concern of priests is to keep people from falling prey to the tricks of such cults and reintroducing language that would alienate people is just a big mistake when there are valid alternatives.
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ProVobis
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Who said they won’t be hearing their own language in the Mass anymore? What’s wrong with both Latin and vernacular? If they have no problem with Kumbaya, why should they have a problem with Agnus Dei, for example? And what’s wrong with two (name removed by moderator)uts instead of one, which most only recognize the words but don’t know what they mean?
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ConstantineTG
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I’m not discounting that Latin can be offered in Mass, whether in the OF or EF. In fact the EF is celebrated there and from last I heard the priest was granted by the Bishop to put up a personal parish. At that time they were celebrating in an OF parish.
The thing is, I don’t think there’s much to be gained by changing how much Latin is offered in the OF Mass today (which is zero). People are poorly Catechized as it is. Alientating them will just easily drive them to the Evangelicals or the other anti-Catholic Restorationists like the INC.
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benedictgal
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The Mass that the Holy Father celebrates at the Sistene Chapel and in his private chapel is in the OF, Constantine. There are pictures of him celebrating the Holy Sacrifice Ad Orientem. Even his personal secretary celebrated the Mass of Thanksgiving for his silver jubilee ad orientem. This was also in the OF. Ad orientem is not restricted merely to the EF, Constantine. It is a legitimate posture in the OF. In fact, the GIRM assumes that at some point, the celebrant will be using AO.How about following the example of the Holy Father that he celebrates the Mass in the OF, not the EF. I wonder why that is never brought up?
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benedictgal
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It is an over-generalization, I believe, to make a blanket statement that using Latin will alientate the faithful and drive them elsewhere. That was certainly not the case when the Holy Father visited the UK two weeks ago, nor has it been the case for centuries prior to the Second Vatican Council. For example, Latin was used in Mexico for centuries. That certainly did not alienate the faithful. In fact, there is a Latin chant that dates back to the late 16th century commemorating Our Lady of Guadalupe. Thus, as I see it, using that kind of an argument against Latin really does not hold much water, especially since the Holy Father has repeatedly called for its usage, especially in multi-lingual Masses. One could certainly have the Liturgy of the Word in the various languages of the people (Spanish, Tagalog and the other dialects spoken in the Phillipines), but, Latin would be the unifying factor for the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
Fr. Chupungco is the brains (if I remember correctly) behind the so-called “Missa ng Bayang Pilipino” (i.e. “Mass of the Filipino People/Society/Country/Nation”).
It calls for, among others, the priest to receive Communion last, after the people, because it’s our “culture”; i.e. the host always eats last.
What does that tell us?
(Hint: for those who understand the sacrificial nature of the Mass, this is unthinkable).
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ConstantineTG
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I’m just saying, people have always been saying we should follow his example, like receiving kneeling and COTT. But he also celebrates Mass in the OF, so why push people who are comfortable in the OF to the EF? A big chunk of discussion on this thread is because liturgists back in the Philippines do not want Latin in the OF. Not that there is any to begin with. And its not about supressing the EF, there are EF Masses in the Philippines. No one is asking to change that. I’m just surprised that there is much fuss about people’s desire to keep a fully vernacular OF Mass, which is an entirely legitimate option to begin with.
Same with the issue on ad orientem. It is a perfectly legitimate option for the priest to be facing the people. So why make a fuss if the people ask that be kept that way? I will be the first to complain if the Church says it cannot be done and they insist on doing it. But what the people are asking for is a legitimate option, therefore we should respect that. Let us not force something out of our own preferences and complain when people are asking for something that is legitimate.
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ConstantineTG
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Sorry but its not an over generalization. Keep in mind that the culture in the Philippines is different than the culture in the UK or in the US. I have to admit that I myself find some actions and reactions too petty, but thats how the culture is. How do you change an entire population of 94 million?
Also, people will be more tolerable of Latin elements from a Papal Mass. But weekly? It like saying, you don’t mind wearing formal wear once in a while but not every day. As I said, how do you give people the vernacular and take it away from them? Those who want Latin Mass already have access to it. But most people are not interested in it. In fact, a lot of people would choose English Mass over Filipino Mass even though Filipino is their native tongue and they can comprehend both languages well. What more if its a choice between a language one can understand and one can’t. Why do we have to make a big issue of an all-vernacular Mass when the people want it and its a legitimate option? Then we label it as progressive.
Masses are very solemn in the Philippines. In fact, the CBCP has issued dress codes, something a lot of people here in North America has complained about. No short shorts, no exposed clevage, etc. Filipinos still hold to traditional conservative values in line with Church teachings, even though practice is waning. But we still see those values as part not only of our faith but our culture. So I think its not fair to label the Church there or the people there progressive.
Also FYI, Spanish is not used in the Philippines. While there are a lot of Spanish words and phrases still in use and integrated in the various dialects and even the national language, a great majority of the population cannot carry a conversation in Spanish.
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ProVobis
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This is not a valid argument. People want to use contraceptives, not have to do Penance on Fridays, not have to learn anything at all, etc, etc. The Church must decide and teach what’s good in the long run for the Church and this may not be what people want today for themselves in their own backyard. You either follow their rules or you don’t.
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