Proof for praying to saints

[Realcatholicgk]

Here’s my problem with this. You are spiritually alive (I trust), as am I, and yet if I wish to communicate with you at all, for example to ask you to pray for me, I must do so physically, not spiritually.

**I know we both have souls. Weather yours is “alive” in Christ is between you and Christ. Sometimes, in our church we have silent prayer. When all our spirits pray to God and sometimes to the Saints without a “physical word being said” Don’t you really think people’s spirits can be heard better than their “physical” voices?
**
Obviously prayer to someone who is not physically alive is completly different from all of our normal human-to-human interactions. The means we must use normally (physical), are impossible to use in praying to the Saints.

**Sure it is. OK, lets go with that premise, it should work. **

So, I guess my question is, since we are unable to establish spiritual communication between those who are both spiritually & physically alive, why would that change when one of the parties becomes physically dead?

**Because as you stated the dynamics changed in the relationship. Lets say you and spouse are in a normal physical interaction communicating together until your spouse leaves to go to work. OK? Later, you call using another type of communications, a “Phone”. You aren’t usimng the norman voice to ear methoid because you are physically separated. Does that make sense? Well, just think of Prayer as a Telephone and you will better understand prayer. By the Way. Did you remember to “call” Home today? God is waiting for your call! **

God Bless

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Peter J:

*Thanks for the quotes. I’ll have to give them a little thought.

If you don’t mind my asking, what Church or Denomination do you belong to? *

*PETER, I answered! I still awaiting yours. *
" Not at all, but why did you ask, may I ask? I thought my name gave it away. I said REAL catholic! Anyway, I am a cradle Roman Catholic. Re-born in the Spirit, on 11 Nov 1976. [That was said for my spirit filled christian brothers of other denominations.] I am a Pratical Catholic as understood by the Roman Catholic Church in communication with the Holy See. '

freesmileys.org/smileys/bounce014.giffreesmileys.org/smileys/bounce014.giffreesmileys.org/smileys/bounce014.gif

 

[savedsinner]

Here’s my problem with this. You are spiritually alive (I trust), as am I, and yet if I wish to communicate with you at all, for example to ask you to pray for me, I must do so physically, not spiritually.

Obviously prayer to someone who is not physically alive is completly different from all of our normal human-to-human interactions. The means we must use normally (physical), are impossible to use in praying to the Saints.

So, I guess my question is, since we are unable to establish spiritual communication between those who are both spiritually & physically alive, why would that change when one of the parties becomes physically dead?

Revelation 5:8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

God somehow allowed the elders to present to Him the prayers of the Saints. Heaven is a spiritual place and not a physical place, so there wouldn’t have been physical bowls that the saints were holding. Some how the Saints were presenting these prayers to God. And God was allowing them to present to Him these prayers.

The only reason that the Saints in heaven can hear our prayers, is that God allows them to hear them in some form or manner.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

AGAIN, there are many different ways to define pray.
A prayer to Jesus or the Holy Spirit, or to Mary, or the saints is simply asking them to join our actual prayer - which is ulimately to God alone - as is theirs as well.

Exactly! Pray to anyone. God hears all prayers and knows your heart. It isn’t the words that matter, it is the devotion!

---

**Sand, my dear: ****Where I come from, what you are doing is also called “quibbling.” and someone would yell out “Somebody, Get a rope!”
**
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths" — Proverbs 3:5-6

 

[Peter_J]

PETER, I answered! I still awaiting yours.
" Not at all, but why did you ask, may I ask? I thought my name gave it away. I said REAL catholic! Anyway, I am a cradle Roman Catholic.

Sorry about that. I guess I didn’t realize that I needed a special reason for asking, other than just wanting to know. (I guess it’s too late too say “Consider the question withdrawn”, since you’ve already answered it.)

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Sorry about that. I guess I didn’t realize that I needed a special reason for asking, other than just wanting to know. (I guess it’s too late too say “Consider the question withdrawn”, since you’ve already answered it.)

I was just wondering why you asked me that question. It is not a problem i answer most questions. I don’t take advise very well but I normally don;'t offer any unless it will save the person’s soul. Then it is my responsibility to do that. I just thought that I might have said something that triggered that question. I hope by my screen name you can tell I am proud of being a real catholic.

**God Bless! **

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Because something has changed on the “receiving” end! There have been cases between people, both living, who feel this sort of connection and assurance; it is either a momentary grace given them by God, or (more likely, in my opinion) a mutual connection to God, i.e., God making it known to one what the other has prayed.

Is this the way you believe it is when you pray to Saints? That they hear you, not directly, but through God?

This is not to say that the dead in Christ are God or are gods, but that they have become partakers of the Divine nature in a way which we have not (yet). Their souls are freed from sin completely – not just free juridically, but free from the effects, even. They are utterly and completely attuned to God and His will. There is nothing hindering them from exercising their spiritual attributes to the utmost. If, then, it pleases God to let them hear us and respond to us, by His almighty power and in accord with His perfect will, so be it!

What makes you think He does let them hear us?

Sometimes, in our church we have silent prayer. When all our spirits pray to God and sometimes to the Saints without a “physical word being said” Don’t you really think people’s spirits can be heard better than their “physical” voices?

Not neccesarily. If you were trying to pray to me, for example, I would reccomend that you use your physical voice, as I would be able to hear it better.

Because as you stated the dynamics changed in the relationship. Lets say you and spouse are in a normal physical interaction communicating together until your spouse leaves to go to work. OK? Later, you call using another type of communications, a “Phone”. You aren’t usimng the norman voice to ear methoid because you are physically separated. Does that make sense? Well, just think of Prayer as a Telephone and you will better understand prayer.

There’s a problem with this analogy. As long as we both have telephones, I can talk with you on the phone, even if we’re in the same room. So, if we’re able to communicate spiritually, we should be able to do so even if physical communication is not impossible. If we don’t both have “telephones”, if we are not able to communicate spiritually, then, if we can’t communicate physically, we can’t communicate.

Does what I’m saying make sense?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Sandusky keeps repeating Matthew 6:6 and imagining that it means something any intelligent person can see it does not mean. If you examine Matthew 6 in its entirety, you can see that to hone in on one verse and BOLD and HIGHLIGHT it hysterically proves absolutely nothing about the practice of mentally communicating a request for prayer to a departed in Christ.

Matthew 6 is about differentiating sincere prayer from useless and insincere prayer. First Jesus explains that prayer is a sacred request made from the heart to God, and that is in contrast to the public, self-promoting prayers of the falsely righteous in the synagogue. He is pointing out the insincere prayer practiced by the Jews.

He then goes on to denounce the vain repetitions of the pagan. Notice that the vain repetitions are called vain because they are self-serving, and repetitions because they are uttered with hope they will be heard simply because they are being repeated so many times, rather than because they represent heartfelt communication with God.

Notice that just two verses later in Matthew 6 Jesus gives the Lord prayer- which is a “formula”. So, Jesus is not denouncing structured prayer, but denouncing insincere prayer.

Heartfelt requests to the alive but departed in Christ are not addressed in Matthew 6 at all. And why in the world would such a thing be addressed here, before Jesus ministry has even been concluded? Clearly, if Scripture had something to say about it, it would have been said by Paul- when we actually had a Church and a Body of Christ to pray to!

 

[po18guy]

By the Lord’s instruction:Matthew 6:6, 9

“But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door
and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

"Pray, then, in THIS way: ‘Our Father…You’ll run into a lot of bias against the Lord’s words here, Elizabeth; so do with it what you will.

Bias against the Lord’s word, huh??? Let’s see how Sandusky does in this regard:

Jesus: “Take, eat, this is my body” Sandusky: Sorry, I just can’t see it!
Jesus: “Take and drink, each of you, this is the new covenant in my blood” Sandusky: That’s figurative!
Jesus: “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you” Sandusky: This is an allegory, and my pastor says he can prove it!
Jesus: “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day” Sandusky: But I have the paper and ink of the bible! To me, that’s just as good!

You don’t do any of these Lord’s commands, do you Sandusky? Pure jealousy, man! Give Elizabeth a break. Her heart is open and she is seeking. You are not. I could see your jealousy if this were a satan-worshipping site, because that is the only true battle - but you grieve her for seeking the fulness of truth.

I will close my door and pray to the Lord for you, after I go and eat His Body and drink His Blood. Amen! Alleluia!

 

[po18guy]

Pray to God.

Dude, at some point in your life, your eye, hand or foot has caused you to sin. I see that you still have two of each. And you call yourself a bible Christian? (Matthew 18:8, Mark 9:47)

 

[yellowbicycle]

I always took for granted that praying to the saints was fine with everyone.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone here - I know everyone is really and truly and honestly just trying to be right with the Lord. That is respectable and to be lauded.
And everyone on this board knows scripture FAR better than I do, so I can’t challenge anyone on anything in that regard.
But, I visit the graves of my relatives, and I say things like ‘Uncle Ken, we miss you and we love you.’
I say that because I think he can hear me.
Doesn’t everyone do that, at some point? ‘Dad, I miss you’ or ‘Mom, do you know how much I love you?’ Do other people not do that? And don’t you think they can hear you? And wouldn’t your dear sweet mother who made you soup when you were sick and thought you looked adorable even with braces, don’t you think she would be DELIGHTED to pray for you? Wouldn’t she be mad if you DIDN’T ask?
Now, take that out to, say, Mary, who loved God, and his creations SO much that she bore Jesus, wouldn’t she pray for you? And like, Saint Francis - for goodness sake, he even loved birds. I think he loves me enough to say a few kind words with me, eh?
I guess I just don’t understand why praying to the saints would be a bad thing.

 

[johnnydigit]

I am a Protestant but I’ve recently become interested in the Catholic faith. One of my concerns with Catholicism, though, is saints. I’ve sort of been taught that Cathlics worship saints, especially through prayer. I’ve talked to some of my Catholic friends about it and they say it isn’t worship, and that what they’re doing is intercessory prayer. what exactly is that? also, is there biblical proof that we should pray to saints?
I want to get a Catholic point of view on this, I don’t want to base all my opinions just on what Protestants say, because I know there is some bias there.

first i want to applaud you for being open to reason and looking at both sides of the argument before making an uninformed decision.

as you can see from the very good links and explanations provided, the most obvious, in-your-face Scripture reference from the Bible will be from Revelation 5:8.

But this in itself is hardly enough to convince me because both sides could easily throw back quote after quote in their favor. what is more convincing are the other explanations…

are Saints even alive in heaven or are they dead? (they are alive, we are all connected in heaven and on earth, and quite frankly, it gives me more hope knowing that.)

if they are alive, is this considered worshiping God and a violation of the Commandments? (there are 3 specific kinds of worship, and this is not the one that is the highest one directed to God alone, this is the praying you do for eachother.)

=======

i hope you are able to see through what sandusky has been trying to do by making you think Matthew 6:6 is a blanket statement that covers all prayer. (what about praying before meals? making simple prayers throughout the day? these don’t necessarily strictly follow Matt 6:6.)

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
catholic.com/library/pray…the_saints.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312frs.asp

i know one may get lazy, but read the links!

 

[japhy]

Is this the way you believe it is when you pray to Saints? That they hear you, not directly, but through God?

That example was for how two earthly-living people might, by a special grace of God, know what the other is praying for. It happened about a year or so ago between an acquaintance of mine and her friend. I would say that the way the saints hear our prayers is different by degree, if not also be manner.

What makes you think He does let them hear us?

Because it adds to His glory, that those who were faithful to Him and obeyed His Son and are now rejoicing in heavenly glory and perfection are not utterly cut off from the rest of the Church. The saints in heaven are still part of the Church; we call them the Church “triumphant”, while we on earth, the struggling sinners who seek to be saints, are the Church “militant” (still waging our personal and corporate wars against the powers of sin and evil). If the Church is the Body of Christ, and there is one Body which is not divided, since there is one head, then they are no less members of the Body than we on earth who are members of that same Body. It stands to reason, then, that two members of the same Body can communicate with one another, either by means of proximity or hierarchy (the finger to the hand) or by means of the Head who is Christ Jesus.

Why do I think God lets the saints hear us? Because our relationship is not with God alone, but with every member of the Body of Christ, and because it only strengthens our hope.

 

[sandusky]

First Jesus explains that prayer is a sacred request made from the heart to God…

Which is my point.
Angels Unaware:

Heartfelt requests to the alive but departed in Christ are not addressed in Matthew 6 at all.

Where are prayers to the dead addressed?
Angels Unaware:

Clearly, if Scripture had something to say about it, it would have been said by Paul- when we actually had a Church and a Body of Christ to pray to!

What about the Jews? Didn’t they have dead?

Where does Paul address prayers to the dead?

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

That example was for how two earthly-living people might, by a special grace of God, know what the other is praying for. It happened about a year or so ago between an acquaintance of mine and her friend. I would say that the way the saints hear our prayers is different by degree, if not also be manner.

I think I know what you’re talking about here, and I definitely agree that it happens. Paul’s dream of the Macedonian might be an example of this. Since we both agree, though, that it probably isn’t direct spiritual communication between two persons, I don’t really think it’s evidence that such exists.

Because it adds to His glory, that those who were faithful to Him and obeyed His Son and are now rejoicing in heavenly glory and perfection are not utterly cut off from the rest of the Church. The saints in heaven are still part of the Church; we call them the Church “triumphant”, while we on earth, the struggling sinners who seek to be saints, are the Church “militant” (still waging our personal and corporate wars against the powers of sin and evil). If the Church is the Body of Christ, and there is one Body which is not divided, since there is one head, then they are no less members of the Body than we on earth who are members of that same Body. It stands to reason, then, that two members of the same Body can communicate with one another, either by means of proximity or hierarchy (the finger to the hand) or by means of the Head who is Christ Jesus.

Why do I think God lets the saints hear us? Because our relationship is not with God alone, but with every member of the Body of Christ, and because it only strengthens our hope.

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear, I wasn’t asking what you thought God’s reason for Him letting us communicate with the physically dead, but for the evidence that He actually does so. As far as I can see, the only evidence that you’re offering is “It stands to reason…that two members of the same Body can communicate with one another”. I don’t see this.

To take a practical example, say their are two church-members. If one of them is asleep, they cannot communicate with each other, either physically, or spiritually, even though they are both members of the same body.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Which is my point.

Where are prayers to the dead addressed?

What about the Jews? Didn’t they have dead?

Where does Paul address prayers to the dead?

Sandusky, you don’t have a point. You have word games and deliberate blindness.

The saints are not dead.

I would encourage anyone who has had any seeds of doubt sown by a prideful, attacking, mis-directed Protestant such as Sandusky to listen to the Litany of the Saints. Just once. One time.

The heart and the spirit can comprehend where word games and mind-bending can only achieve pride and blindness.

 

[Peter_J]

Sandusky, you don’t have a point. You have word games and deliberate blindness.

The saints are not dead.

I would encourage anyone who has had any seeds of doubt sown by a prideful, attacking, mis-directed Protestant such as Sandusky to listen to the Litany of the Saints. Just once. One time.

The heart and the spirit can comprehend where word games and mind-bending can only achieve pride and blindness.

Angels Unaware,

I just hope that, after you’ve been on CAF a little longer, you come to realize that we try to show a modicum of courtesy to our fellow posters. (“Our fellow posters” includes Protestant posters, by the way.)

 

[twb1621]

Sandusky…
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.
1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.
2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.
1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:
Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.
continued

 

[twb1621]

continued from last post
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.
Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.
Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.
Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her “Hail, full of grace.” The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.
Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God’s children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.
1 Cor. 4:16 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is “imitating” the saints, as Paul commands us to do.
1 Cor. 11:1 - again, Paul says, “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.
Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!
Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.
1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.
2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.
Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of “more” glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God’s goodness.
Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.
James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.
1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don’t those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.
Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.
Lev. 19:32- we should also honor “the face of an old man.” When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.
2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.

There are others as well.

 

[po18guy]

i hope you are able to see through what sandusky has been trying to do by making you think Matthew 6:6 is a blanket statement that covers all prayer. (what about praying before meals? making simple prayers throughout the day? these don’t necessarily strictly follow Matt 6:6.)

Our brother criticizes us for repetitive prayer during the Rosary, then advises us to do exactly the same thing, repeating the “Our Father” innumerable times! I’m praying for him, as he does not appear to be a happy man. Where’s the joy?